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-   -   The HHoF & PEDs/HGH (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1336981)

Hawkman 01-30-2013 09:34 AM

The HHoF & PEDs/HGH
 
I often hear baseball writers say a player should not be considered HoF worthy, because he allegedly used PEDs/HGH. I've never heard anyone say this about a hockey or a football player. What's the difference? Should there be a difference? What's going on here?

Epsilon 01-30-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmm (Post 58672447)
I often hear baseball writers say a player should not be considered HoF worthy, because he allegedly used PEDs/HGH. I've never heard anyone say this about a hockey or a football player. What's the difference? Should there be a difference? What's going on here?

A lot of people will deny this, but when it comes to team sports (as opposed to individual sports such as running and cycling), most fans don't care whether PEDs had an effect on the outcome of games, they care about if they had an effect on records and statistics. And baseball is the sport most obsessed with records and statistics. It's why there's such a bigger outcry when a baseball player tests positive for PEDs compared to a football player.

jigglysquishy 01-30-2013 10:19 AM

There is less incentive to use in hockey. Look at Gretzky. Not exactly a physical icon. Or even modern day guys like RNH aren't exactly built.

Contrast that with baseball, where strength is a massive asset to hitting.

Steroids don't improve your vision, shooting or passing.

Hawkman 01-30-2013 10:40 AM

Good points. Also what many casual baseball fans (who hear about Clemens) don't know is that pitching is all technique and the drugs only help you recover from pitching and injuries faster. They don't actually improve your performance otherwise, because the speed and break of your ball is generated by your grip and technique, but not by bigger, faster, stronger muscles.

Kloparren 02-01-2013 03:11 PM

Steroids can improve your recovery time or endurance so they can make a huge difference to hockey. This is where all the Ovechkin conspiracies come from, he didn't take them for strength but maybe something else.

Probably not true but the thing is that they aren't considered important in hockey and I doubt that that people would be that opposed to players taking steroids for faster recovery time or endurance. There are already drugs and medicine for that so why not use steroids for it to would be the mentality by many. In hockey, steroids would help you maintain your playing level basically but they wouldn't make you a better player from the start so that's the difference.

Big Phil 02-01-2013 03:40 PM

It is common knowledge that the Soviets even as late as the 1980s would get shot by the trainer with a needle and not knowing, or even asking, what was in there. I am not sure how much better a hockey player can be with steroids though. It can make you stronger on the puck but in a game of inches you still need to have the sense to make a great play. Baseball is a little different. Barry Bonds would be in the HOF right now if he never took steroids because he was a hall of famer before he started taking them. But he took part in thumbing his nose at the record books against the players who did it legally back in the day and because of that there are sacred records that will forever be up for debate and the history of baseball can never be the same again.

I don't think steroids would change much in hockey. Maybe make a guy stronger along the boards, that's about it.

LeBlondeDemon10 02-01-2013 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmm (Post 58675415)
Good points. Also what many casual baseball fans (who hear about Clemens) don't know is that pitching is all technique and the drugs only help you recover from pitching and injuries faster. They don't actually improve your performance otherwise, because the speed and break of your ball is generated by your grip and technique, but not by bigger, faster, stronger muscles.

I agree, but how do you account for Clemens sudden recovery to an elite pitcher after 1996? He was clearly on the decline from 94-96.

Cruor 02-01-2013 05:10 PM

How often are NHL players tested? Is it comparable, to say Cycling or Tennis where you have to give out your whereabouts in advance and you get systematically tested with blood and urine samples? Oddly enough I can't recall any big hockey PED scandal, only the sporadic caught player (and I don't count cocaine or cough medicine as a PED).

LeBlondeDemon10 02-01-2013 05:14 PM

The baseball records broken weren't just broken, they were annihilated by more than one player. If someone in hockey came along and scored 105 goals and 170 assists one season and it was later found he was juicing, there would be as big an outcry.

Franck 02-01-2013 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor (Post 58845307)
How often are NHL players tested? Is it comparable, to say Cycling or Tennis where you have to give out your whereabouts in advance and you get systematically tested with blood and urine samples? Oddly enough I can't recall any big hockey PED scandal, only the sporadic caught player (and I don't count cocaine or cough medicine as a PED).

I believe players were submitted to random tests a couple of times per season under the previous CBA. One of the changes in the new CBA is that players will now be tested also during the playoffs and the off season.

Either way the doping testing in the NHL is weak, just like in the three other major North American sports leagues. The IIHF testing is much more rigorous, so players who are in contention to play for their national teams at the WC's or Olympics are much less likely to be doping than other players.

It's no secret that steroids and other PED's are in circulation amongst goons and minor leaguers, for whom the boost provided by them might be the difference between making $60k or $600k a year.

Edit: Justin Bourne wrote a piece about it a few years ago. It's worth the read.

thom 02-01-2013 05:31 PM

Ask John Kordic's father if there's steroids or other drugs its always been there.Igor Larinov book which was published in Switzerland admitted that Russian Doctors would inject russian players before big events and this was 30 yrs ago.There was a book sold in quebec by a former player who says a lot of players take steroids or similar drugs.As for size of the person is misleading Lance Armstrong is 155 pounds.Little John Mcenroe the tennis player says he took steroids for short period in the 80's.Most people don't care because its none of our business.Air force pilots in our forces are given pills before and after they drop bombs this is well known and its nothing new.Energy type of pills were rampant in baseball in the 50's and 60's.Those ingrediants in the pills are now illegal in baseball.

Ishdul 02-01-2013 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy (Post 58674393)
There is less incentive to use in hockey. Look at Gretzky. Not exactly a physical icon. Or even modern day guys like RNH aren't exactly built.

Contrast that with baseball, where strength is a massive asset to hitting.

Steroids don't improve your vision, shooting or passing.

This is really dumb. PEDs can improve your strength, your skating speed, your stamina, your recovery time for injuries and the amount of time you can train for. You can't seriously be saying that strength is not a big deal in hockey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor (Post 58845307)
How often are NHL players tested? Is it comparable, to say Cycling or Tennis where you have to give out your whereabouts in advance and you get systematically tested with blood and urine samples? Oddly enough I can't recall any big hockey PED scandal, only the sporadic caught player (and I don't count cocaine or cough medicine as a PED).

Cycling now has the most rigorous testing system in sports with the biological passport. Tennis has a joke testing system and there are several players who are heavily suspected of PED use (Nadal being the big example). Hockey has random tests during the season which are centered around the individual games but there are a million issues with it.

Franck 02-01-2013 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 58846231)
Ask John Kordic's father if there's steroids or other drugs its always been there.

John Kordic's father has been dead since 1989, so it'd be quite difficult asking him about it. ;)

But yes, because of the circumstances surrounding Kordic's death we know that at least one former NHLer used steroids during his career, although they weren't outlawed by the league at the time.

thom 02-01-2013 05:45 PM

John Kordic's father said cocaine and steroids were rampant in the 80's.I got to see John several times as a junior and though he did not like to fight it was his only way to the bigs.Read the John Kordic book its very controversial

Cruor 02-02-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 58846359)
Cycling now has the most rigorous testing system in sports with the biological passport. Tennis has a joke testing system and there are several players who are heavily suspected of PED use (Nadal being the big example). Hockey has random tests during the season which are centered around the individual games but there are a million issues with it.

This is where it gets interesting though, cycling has the most rigorous tests but also the most rampart abuse. Tennis, and I wouldn't call it a joke but lacking, hasn't had major cases since the Argentinians, but as you say there is suspicion.

Which leaves us with hockey, is it as rigorous as other sports or should it be as rigorous?

steveott 02-04-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franck (Post 58846181)
I believe players were submitted to random tests a couple of times per season under the previous CBA. One of the changes in the new CBA is that players will now be tested also during the playoffs and the off season.
.

some sad news..
yes, testing covers now also playoffs but they are all made IN-HOUSE :laugh:

quote from former WADA director: "Because the program is handled by the NHL and not a third party, Pound has doubts as to whether the program is serious or effective. Additionally, Pound says the NHL will not likely catch anybody cheating, because the tests are not stringent enough.

HGH is not tested!
"NHL will establish a committee to study the issues that surround HGH testing" :laugh:
stimulants are not tested!
"NHL will study the use of stimulants and amphetamines and make recommendations" :laugh:


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