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Will Hunting 01-30-2013 04:26 PM

Ray Shero
 
Personally, I think our problems are starting with him.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Heīs leaving Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis for years and forever.
2) He traded Michalek for garbage.
3) He promised that heīs gonna use that cap space, but he didnīt make it happen.
4) Failed on Suter/Parise and had no plan B.
5) He let Sullivan go. Sully was very good for us in 2nd half of season and in PO. He wanted to stay, almost for free. But Shero wanted to try Tangradi/garbage there with Malkin. Our PP now has no entry skill and no blueline patience, which Sully provided.
6) He didnīt bring somebody to replace Sullivan.
7) He continues to draft D-men.
8) Heīs trolling us with a lot of AHL signings instead of making something important

I am accepting that Staal trade and appreciating Vokoun addition.

But still, is it enough? Do you still believe in RS?

Fire Shero* 01-30-2013 04:34 PM

Nope I have no faith in Shero anymore. As bad as Craig Patick was towards the end, Shero benefitted tremendously from the assets in place when he was hired. Kennedy, Letang, Whitney, Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Malone, Gonchar, Goligoski, Talbot, Scuderi, Orpik, #2 overall pick, etc.

The pens needed time for Crosby and Malkin to mature. Shero happened to take over at the right time. Sure he has made some good trades, but Crosby continues to play with **** and Malkin finally got one respectable winger.

We have little to no hope at the winger position in the minors. Our future rests in Beau can't stay healthy Bennett who has never played an NHL game.

But we have a bunch of dmen who may or may not turn out!

How about the fact that Martin and Michalek are the best free agents to sign here under his helm.

Crafton 01-30-2013 04:36 PM

Good poll Will Hunting

Riptide 01-30-2013 04:38 PM

I'd give Shero slightly more rope than DB. But unless they both turn things around, then things need to change.

If DB cant get the team playing better asap, or have a poor playoffs (almost regardless of how deep they go), then he needs to go. If Shero can't fix what's wrong without selling the farm (aka make some decent acquisitions without moving all/most our D prospects), then he likely needs to go too.

I'm just not sure how much time to give him. If we wait till July and then send him packing, we've made things harder for his replacement. If we don't wait for July, should we have?

I don't know what the answer is.

LetangInTheSO 01-30-2013 04:40 PM

Mixed feelings. My thoughts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
1) Heīs leaving Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis for years and forever.

The most salient point. This needs to be addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
2) He traded Michalek for garbage.

It just wasn't working out, and we would have just as many people *****ing about his $4M cap hit as we have people *****ing about the fact that he's gone. At the time we traded him, a salary dump was also prudent given that we were making a run at Praise and Suter. In hindsight, this wasn't a great move...another top 4 dman would be nice at this point.

With all of that said, most GMs have WAY bigger booboos on their resume than trading Michalek as a salary dump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
3) He promised that heīs gonna use that cap space, but he didnīt make it happen.

Did he ever expressly promise this? Even if he did, what were the options? Semin was the only other impact forward on the market aside from Parise, and whether we didn't make the best offer or whether we steered clear of him entirely, I'm not holding Shero to the fire for it. Not many were willing to touch this guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
4) Failed on Suter/Parise and had no plan B.

Plan B would have involved fabricating players that didn't exist. Don't blame Shero for the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
5) He let Sullivan go. Sully was very good for us in 2nd half of season and in PO. He wanted to stay, almost for free. But Shero wanted to try Tangradi/garbage there with Malkin. Our PP now has no entry skill and no blueline patience, which Sully provided.

The general consensus among most Pens fans is that we've been handing roster spots to players on the decline rather than giving our youngsters a chance. So far, Tangradi hasn't looked good, but I'm happy that we gave him a shot rather than guaranteeing that roster spot to an aging Sullivan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
6) He didnīt bring somebody to replace Sullivan.

He tried to land marquee talent and when that failed he decided he'd look internally to our prospects. I'm fine with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
7) He continues to draft D-men.

I'm with you on this one. More accurately, I'm frustrated by our inability to draft/develop forwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
8) Heīs trolling us with a lot of AHL signings instead of making something important

Again, I don't expect him to be a wizard.

Of all the things you've listed, the only glaring, systemic problem we have is a dearth of talent on the wings. Most GMs with the amount of tenure as Shero have a laundry list of bad trades, poor signings and other gaffes. Shero has startlingly few. The only major mark against him is the piss poor talent we have flanking our stars. It frustrates the hell out of me, but I think that Shero's track record - generally speaking - is very good.

UnderratedBrooks44 01-30-2013 04:41 PM

I'm exactly in between "mixed" and "no longer believe", but forced to choose I picked the latter. We got caught with our pants down TWICE waiting for one single UFA (okay, two kinda last summer). That's just not smart if you're going to come up empty both times. You have to know the lay of the land a little bit. I don't think there's any reason to believe he was even considering guys like Hudler while Parise was happening.

The other reason is that I'm more or less confident the drafting strategy was a failure. We're going to be waiting for all these D prospects to gain value while potential Cup runs pass us by. We honestly don't have that many assets that are trade-worthy when you consider what we can't afford to lose.

At the end of the day the Neal trade was amazing, and after that the organization hasn't done anything the last few years to get as close as possible to a Cup. Honestly I think a lot of it hinged on the summer of Martin/Michalek. My ideal scenario was a Dman and a forward. One of each was totally get-able, and he erred on the side of bolstering the defense for a long time. Well it didn't work as well as I believe another strategy may have.

cheesedanish87 01-30-2013 04:42 PM

Most of the points u made in your opening post have to deal with this years roster and none of us know what the roster is gonna look like after the trade deadline.

Frederick Stanley 01-30-2013 04:43 PM

I still don't get it why he drafted Pouliot. Another ****ing defenseman. I guess Forsberg or Grigorenko would have been too obvious. Then he totally ****s up the Michalek situation. A 3rd round pick and two propects? I don't know Cheverie or Ruopp, are they 3rd line material? Because we need more of them.

ColePens 01-30-2013 04:43 PM

Bunch of ****ing cherry picked garbage by some of you...

- Traded Gogo for Neal & Nisky....
- Traded Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi
- Signed the best player in the game to an amazing contract
- Traded a guy who was going to leave us for free in a shortened 48 game season for Sutter, 8th pick, and Dumolin
- Went after Hossa, Suter, & Parise and even though they selected other teams, we were right in the mix.
- Signed 2 of the top 4 defenders available during UFA, who unfortunately have **** the bed since. He clears cap space, like everyone wanted, w/ Michalek.


I mean.. I think we should mix both lists and see what you think. And do it for other GMs, too. Ray Shero is great. He's done an amazing job through trades. He has missed a lot in UFA but that's because players are choosing other destinations or not panning out for us. Look at the names we were going after. Hamhuis, Parise, Martin, Michalek, Hossa, Jagr.... I mean what else do you want? If he would have signed Parise, you would have all acted as if he were a God.

Jesus Vitale 01-30-2013 04:44 PM

we should get a new GM, but keep Ray in charge of trades.

he's probably the best trading GM in the NHL, everything else... not so much.

Kovifan27 01-30-2013 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58690503)
Personally, I think our problems are starting with him.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Heīs leaving Sid with Kunitz and Dupuis for years and forever.
2) He traded Michalek for garbage.
3) He promised that heīs gonna use that cap space, but he didnīt make it happen.
4) Failed on Suter/Parise and had no plan B.
5) He let Sullivan go. Sully was very good for us in 2nd half of season and in PO. He wanted to stay, almost for free. But Shero wanted to try Tangradi/garbage there with Malkin. Our PP now has no entry skill and no blueline patience, which Sully provided.
6) He didnīt bring somebody to replace Sullivan.
7) He continues to draft D-men.
8) Heīs trolling us with a lot of AHL signings instead of making something important

I am accepting that Staal trade and appreciating Vokoun addition.

But still, is it enough? Do you still believe in RS?

1) Dupuis isn't ideal but he's really not terrible. It would be nice to have an upgrade but I would upgrade Kunitz first/throw him back to to Malkins line if we can trade for a good winger.
2)I don't think he wanted to be here. You can't keep players around like that.
3)We don't know what trades he is working on or what didn't work out. He might have a trade that was intended for that cap space. There are still trades to be made.
4)I don't think many teams had a plan b. He didn't offer Semin anything so I would be inclined to believe he felt he wasn't a proper fit. I would have personally taken Semin on a one year.
5)Letting Sullivan go and trying Tangradi is on the coach. Dan has to say hey I'm not going to play Tangradi so keep Sullivan.
6)Again on Bylsma. If he said we can get Tangradi in that spot and develop him I say go for it. But you aren't going to season him by yanking him on and off the ice.
7) This is where I do have a problem with him. DP could be a monster in a couple of years but what the hell does that do for this anemic offense? If Bylsma is still around do you see him playing more than one or two rookie defenders? Even Strait said he feared getting yanked off the ice for every mistake. Draft a forward or two this year and let them play.
8)Nothing wrong with signing AHL depth to help develop the young talent. They sure aren't getting it in the NHL being yanked in and out of the lineup.

ColePens 01-30-2013 04:46 PM

And I can't get over the fact people actually wanted Sully back. He sucks. Pull up 90% of the threads last year *****ing about him.

LetangInTheSO 01-30-2013 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 (Post 58691209)
We got caught with our pants down TWICE waiting for one single UFA (okay, two kinda last summer). That's just not smart.

Well the first time it happened, the result was a Stanley Cup :laugh:

You guys all act as though our targeting Hossa and then Parise/Suter was at the expense of other fantastic options. Looking at the Parise/Suter situation specifically, the ONLY other marquee talent available was Alex frikkin' Semin. We didn't forego any better opportunities.

Will Hunting 01-30-2013 04:47 PM

Guys, even after Suter/Parise fail, there were some options. Not gonna mention them all, but what about PA Parenteau or Damien Brunner. Brunner signed 2-way contract with Detroit on a very reasonable price. No surprise, heīs doing well. Shero didnīt give it a ****. I am sure there were some other options as well.

I am very embarrassed with what we have now. Giving a shot to youngsters like Tangradi may be fine, but we want a success ASAP and those are very risky experiments. And theyīre failing so far.

Zero Pucks 01-30-2013 04:49 PM

He has some flaws and issues he definitely needs to deal with. But I still have faith in Shero.

Luigi Lemieux 01-30-2013 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 58691507)
And I can't get over the fact people actually wanted Sully back. He sucks. Pull up 90% of the threads last year *****ing about him.

He's soft, but it's 50 pts that weren't replaced.

I don't think there's any doubt that this team is weaker on paper than it was last year, and by a pretty good margin.

Crafton 01-30-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58691523)
Guys, even after Suter/Parise fail, there were some options. Not gonna mention them all, but what about PA Parenteau or Damien Brunner. Brunner signed 2-way contract with Detroit on a very reasonable price. No surprise, heīs doing well. Shero didnīt give it a ****. I am sure there were some other options as well.

the Penguins were in on Brunner. Elliotte Friedman reported that the Pens, Wild, Bolts and Wings were interested in him. Shero's been consistently in the mix for some pretty good options. That he couldn't land them is concerning, but let's not act like he didn't try.

Will Hunting 01-30-2013 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost in Crafton (Post 58691875)
the Penguins were in on Brunner. Elliotte Friedman reported that the Pens, Wild, Bolts and Wings were interested in him. Shero's been consistently in the mix for some pretty good options. That he couldn't land them is concerning, but let's not act like he didn't try.

I know we were in it. But look at his contract. Was it really that hard to beat DET there? Give Brunner 1-way and Crosby as his center and we are all happy. It looks like we were in for every winger and just end up with Tangradi, which is awful. No excuses.

Zero Pucks 01-30-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 58691523)
Guys, even after Suter/Parise fail, there were some options. Not gonna mention them all, but what about PA Parenteau or Damien Brunner. Brunner signed 2-way contract with Detroit on a very reasonable price. No surprise, heīs doing well. Shero didnīt give it a ****. I am sure there were some other options as well.

I am very embarrassed with what we have now. Giving a shot to youngsters like Tangradi may be fine, but we want a success ASAP and those are very risky experiments. And theyīre failing so far.

I'd rather have had Shero put all his eggs in one basket to land Parise, than backup plans like Brunner or Parenteau. Wtf? It sucks Parise wanted to play in his home state and with his buddy Suter who didn't want to come over to the Easter Conference either. But I'm glad he really tried, everyone would be *****ing their heads off if he didn't.

UnderratedBrooks44 01-30-2013 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO (Post 58691517)
Well the first time it happened, the result was a Stanley Cup :laugh:

You guys all act as though our targeting Hossa and then Parise/Suter was at the expense of other fantastic options. Looking at the Parise/Suter situation specifically, the ONLY other marquee talent available was Alex frikkin' Semin. We didn't forego any better opportunities.

No? I mentioned Hudler in that same post you quoted. There were other 2nd line caliber wingers, and don't tell me Parise wasn't the only thing worth our time when we're sitting here with a gaping hole in the top 6. ANYone worth their salt would be welcomed right now.

Frederick Stanley 01-30-2013 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 58691329)
Bunch of ****ing cherry picked garbage by some of you...

- Traded Gogo for Neal & Nisky....
- Traded Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi
- Signed the best player in the game to an amazing contract
- Traded a guy who was going to leave us for free in a shortened 48 game season for Sutter, 8th pick, and Dumolin
- Went after Hossa, Suter, & Parise and even though they selected other teams, we were right in the mix.
- Signed 2 of the top 4 defenders available during UFA, who unfortunately have **** the bed since. He clears cap space, like everyone wanted, w/ Michalek.


I mean.. I think we should mix both lists and see what you think. And do it for other GMs, too. Ray Shero is great. He's done an amazing job through trades. He has missed a lot in UFA but that's because players are choosing other destinations or not panning out for us. Look at the names we were going after. Hamhuis, Parise, Martin, Michalek, Hossa, Jagr.... I mean what else do you want? If he would have signed Parise, you would have all acted as if he were a God.

I stilll wonder who called first. I bet it was the Dallas GM.

I don't think it was that hard to get Crosby to sign that deal.

He traded Staal too Carolina, got the 8th overall pick and totally ****s the bed.


I can't get multi quote to work. Stupid thing. :D

UnderratedBrooks44 01-30-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 58691329)
Bunch of ****ing cherry picked garbage by some of you...

- Traded Gogo for Neal & Nisky....
- Traded Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi
- Signed the best player in the game to an amazing contract
- Traded a guy who was going to leave us for free in a shortened 48 game season for Sutter, 8th pick, and Dumolin
- Went after Hossa, Suter, & Parise and even though they selected other teams, we were right in the mix.
- Signed 2 of the top 4 defenders available during UFA, who unfortunately have **** the bed since. He clears cap space, like everyone wanted, w/ Michalek.


I mean.. I think we should mix both lists and see what you think. And do it for other GMs, too. Ray Shero is great. He's done an amazing job through trades. He has missed a lot in UFA but that's because players are choosing other destinations or not panning out for us. Look at the names we were going after. Hamhuis, Parise, Martin, Michalek, Hossa, Jagr.... I mean what else do you want? If he would have signed Parise, you would have all acted as if he were a God.

You are right, some including myself might be harsh. The thing about other GMs though is that many of them don't have what Shero started with as a foundation. Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Whitney, Gonchar, and a 2nd overall pick? Goligoski coming up? Letang?

He was smart that first year to just take it kind of slow and fill in the roster with capable players instead of jumping the gun like someone like Burke would've done. I'll always give him credit for that. There's two sides to this story though. After the Cup it leaves a little to be desired. Contracts like Cooke and Kunitz were brilliant moves. If the Cup is the focal point however things have been moving a little too slowly the last few years.

SprootsMasterFlex 01-30-2013 05:03 PM

Mixed feelings, gonna give him some time. Overall, I'm pretty negative given his draft history and the fact that he's ignored addressing some glaring needs over the years (eg. a young winger).

bambamcam4ever 01-30-2013 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 58691329)
Bunch of ****ing cherry picked garbage by some of you...

- Traded Gogo for Neal & Nisky....
- Traded Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi
- Signed the best player in the game to an amazing contract
- Traded a guy who was going to leave us for free in a shortened 48 game season for Sutter, 8th pick, and Dumolin
- Went after Hossa, Suter, & Parise and even though they selected other teams, we were right in the mix.
- Signed 2 of the top 4 defenders available during UFA, who unfortunately have **** the bed since. He clears cap space, like everyone wanted, w/ Michalek.


I mean.. I think we should mix both lists and see what you think. And do it for other GMs, too. Ray Shero is great. He's done an amazing job through trades. He has missed a lot in UFA but that's because players are choosing other destinations or not panning out for us. Look at the names we were going after. Hamhuis, Parise, Martin, Michalek, Hossa, Jagr.... I mean what else do you want? If he would have signed Parise, you would have all acted as if he were a God.

I agree that he has made some excellent trades especially those 3 you listed and I think he has done relatively well overall. He has also managed to resign our better players at reasonable cap hits.

However, his mistakes have mostly come in free agency. It is not a good job when you have to count on signing a premier free agent that almost every other team covets. I think it was reported that 20 teams were attempting to sign Parise. While Shero may have felt that he had a good chance of landing him, odds are that he would go somewhere else. And when you don't have a backup plan to sign another top-6 forward, you end up with Tanner Glass as your only FA signing and $10 million in unused cap space.

Also, while he did sign Martin and Michalek who were 2 of the top 4 defenseman available in that free agent class, defense was not the reason they had lost the year before. After scoring 4 PP goals in the series opener against Montreal in a 6-3 win, the Pens only scored 2 goals per game the rest of the series, and that includes an EN goal. Instead of adding a forward who could play on the top 2 lines like Kovalchuk (whom few teams had the cap space to sign) or Ray Whitney, he signed 2 defenseman, one of whom he gave away for nothing 2 years later.

cheesedanish87 01-30-2013 05:04 PM

Everybody whos talking about signing all these wingers u guys do theirs a salary cap right? The salary cap is going down 5 million next year and were gonna try to sign malkin and letang to more money. If they would of signed parise they wouldnt of been able to sign letang and malkin prob just one of them.


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