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-   -   When does Vokoun become the Pen's starter? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1338081)

wgknestrick 01-31-2013 12:32 PM

When does Vokoun become the Pen's starter?
 
I've speculated this for a while and I feel the Pens are on the precipice of making this decision (at least they should be after the NYI game). I have theorized that the Pen's skaters have given up on MAF (or shoddy goaltending in general), not Byslma after last year's melt down. I think that still holds true, but wish I had more data (more games with Vokoun in net) to prove it.

Vokoun is a known commodity of a near top10/above average goaltender. This is something that the Pens have not had as a data point to compare MAF's performances against in the past. His career SV% is well above MAF's, despite playing for poorer quality teams on average. He does this through consistent play instead of elite "highs". He generally plays well enough not to loose the game through his play, giving his team a "chance" to win.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_goali...6+15+17#snip=f

The above shows the Pen's GA and GF for each goaltender so far this year. Notice not just the difference goals allowed but also the goal support each goaltender receives. It is close to a 3:1 (for against) ratio that switches based on who you are looking at. Still too few games to make a definitive conclusion, but there may be something building here. The indicator is the stark (2g / difference) in goals for possibly showing the Pens reluctance to play in front of MAF.. Neither goaltender has direct influence on this, but this is driving my theory of the team quitting on MAF.

To me, giving TV the starting position is a much less damaging solution to try first before changing D systems, head coaches, trades, etc on a team that has shown to be successful in the past. This Pens team has always been successful when it has received solid, > .900SV in net.. If the Pens find a way to get that on a consistent basis, I bet the Pen's start winning more games.

The discussion is whether the team plays poorly in front of a great goaltending performance (problem with defense), or if the team quits after they see a poor goaltending performance (problem with goaltending).

I am just reluctant to be in WSH's position in a couple of years after the Pen's "blow things up the wrong way", or don't properly identify their problems. I think Bylsma has his flaws, but he is not skating in the games for sure.

TheSniper26 01-31-2013 12:36 PM

Vokoun will never be the starter of this team whether he deserves it or not. All the statistical analysis in the world won't put a dent in the Pittsburgh belief that MAF is an elite goalie who just faces more difficult shots than every other goalie.

Sidney the Kidney 01-31-2013 12:38 PM

About the same time as when Craig Adams is scratched regularly in favor of a rookie.

wgknestrick 01-31-2013 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSniper26 (Post 58748619)
Vokoun will never be the starter of this team whether he deserves it or not. All the statistical analysis in the world won't put a dent in the Pittsburgh belief that MAF is an elite goalie who just faces more difficult shots than every other goalie.

This is the exact "status quo" I am challenging.

MAF last 10 games:

4/10 of his last games he could not save more than 80% of the shots (all losses)
7/10 he could not save more than 90% of the shots (all but 1 game were losses)

3/10 he gave the Pens 90% or above SV% and the Pens won all 3 games.

LetangBrassard23 01-31-2013 12:42 PM

How many times does it need to be said? Fleury is not the problem.

wgknestrick 01-31-2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetangBrassard23 (Post 58748935)
How many times does it need to be said? Fleury is not the problem.

Prove it:)

MonsterSurge 01-31-2013 01:06 PM

I don't think Fleury has been a huge issue this year, but I've never been a fan of Fleury. When he's on his game, he's one of the best. When he's slightly off, he's one of the worst.

The Tang 01-31-2013 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgknestrick (Post 58749193)
Prove it:)


Watch any of the games he has started this year; MAF have given no reason he should be replaced as starter. Plus, going by the games last year is completely irrelevant; that was last year.

metalan2 01-31-2013 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetangBrassard23 (Post 58748935)
How many times does it need to be said? Fleury is not the problem.

Fleury is a main problem, not the only problem.




Vokoun should be the starter, starting tonight, and by starter I mean he plays 60% of the games Fleury plays 40%.

Dupree13 01-31-2013 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterSurge (Post 58750235)
I don't think Fleury has been a huge issue this year, but I've never been a fan of Fleury. When he's on his game, he's one of the best. When he's slightly off, he's one of the worst.

I'm with you. I'd rather have a less talented but more steady presence, than a goalie who's highly talented but schizophrenic. But even though I would be inclined to ditch Fleury, I need to see a lot more of Vokoun before I'd hand him the keys. So to answer the OP, mid-season at the earliest.

wheelz87 01-31-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dupree13 (Post 58750727)
I'm with you. I'd rather have a less talented but more steady presence, than a goalie who's highly talented but schizophrenic. But even though I would be inclined to ditch Fleury, I need to see a lot more of Vokoun before I'd hand him the keys. So to answer the OP, mid-season at the earliest.

That EXACTLY defines Vokoun..

Mister Hockey 01-31-2013 01:48 PM

MAF has out played him so far.

stayinalive 01-31-2013 02:00 PM

MAF was one of the best players for us so far this season. If not the best. He is not the problem!!

Sivek 01-31-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSniper26 (Post 58748619)
Vokoun will never be the starter of this team whether he deserves it or not. All the statistical analysis in the world won't put a dent in the Pittsburgh belief that MAF is an elite goalie who just faces more difficult shots than every other goalie.

this and when Vokoun displays that he is playing clearly better than MAF, it'll be because the defense tightens up when Vokoun plays since they can't rely on MAF to cover up for them.

Wish I was joking.

Also saying Vokoun is less talented is kind of an overstatement. He's been a better goalie than MAF for practically his whole career. Who cares how athletic MAF is when Vokoun has consistently stopped more pucks for his entire career and has played behind some seriously scrub d-man. Just look at the crew Florida was running out there during his career and it's not system bul**** either, because if it was so easy to post high save% consistently like Vokoun has soley because of a system, why doesn't DB ever try to implement one like it.

Shockmaster 01-31-2013 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sivek (Post 58753467)
this and when Vokoun displays that he is playing clearly better than MAF, it'll be because the defense tightens up when Vokoun plays since they can't rely on MAF to cover up for them.

Wish I was joking.

Also saying Vokoun is less talented is kind of an overstatement. He's been a better goalie than MAF for practically his whole career. Who cares how athletic MAF is when Vokoun has consistently stopped more pucks for his entire career and has played behind some seriously scrub d-man. Just look at the crew Florida was running out there during his career.

I guess you didn't watch the Winnipeg game. How come no one blames Vokoun for that but Fleury gets bashed for the Leafs and Islanders game?

Because you're typical yinzers. CUT THE SUPER-STAR! START THE BACK-UP!

Jaded-Fan 01-31-2013 02:08 PM

The defense has been much more the issue than MAF this year. I am not sure how you judge any of the goalies with what has been going on. I doubt that Martin Brodeur in his prime could keep his GAA below 3 with what has been going on.

TheSniper26 01-31-2013 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockmaster (Post 58753801)
I guess you didn't watch the Winnipeg game. How come no one blames Vokoun for that but Fleury gets bashed for the Leafs and Islanders game?

Because you're typical yinzers. CUT THE SUPER-STAR! START THE BACK-UP!

Yes it's all just based on the handful of games from this season. The string of playoff meltdowns never happened. That's just yinzer stuff!

Flat Stanley 01-31-2013 02:12 PM

He doesn't.

wgknestrick 01-31-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Hockey (Post 58752527)
MAF has out played him so far.

(Bangs head against wall)

.917 SV% vs a .890 SV% ?


TV has had zero games with SV% below 90% for the pens so far in 2.5ish games.

MAF has had 2 games with a SV% below 80% out of 3.5 games.

Le Magnifique 66 01-31-2013 02:14 PM

wow if some of you were the GM you might be going after Luongo:rolleyes:

MAF this year has not been the problem

Flat Stanley 01-31-2013 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgknestrick (Post 58754093)
(Bangs head against wall)

.917 SV% vs a .890 SV% ?


TV has had zero games with SV% below 90% for the pens so far in 2.5ish games.

MAF has had 2 games with a SV% below 80% out of 3.5 games.

Yeah, Fleury's save percentage has nothing to do with defensive breakdowns, turnovers in the defensive zone, etc.

The Penguins have played solid in front of him, they go down and block shots every chance they get, it's just that every time Fleury sees rubber, he's swiss cheese.

Trade him, he is absolutely the worst goalie in the league.

:sarcasm:

Zirakzigil 01-31-2013 02:17 PM

MAF hasnt been the problem this year. The lack of goals being scored and no heart from this team are the issues.

Shockmaster 01-31-2013 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSniper26 (Post 58753995)
Yes it's all just based on the handful of games from this season. The string of playoff meltdowns never happened. That's just yinzer stuff!

What string of playoff meltdowns? Are you seriously blaming the TB series on Fleury? Geez, even the Montreal series from 2010 was probably more on the lack of scoring rather than goal-tending.

So tell me why Vokoun isn't at fault for the Winnipeg game? In fact, tell me why Vokoun barely has seen playoff action in his career. Gotta hold him to the same standard! It must be his fault the Panthers missed the playoffs all those years!

Like you said, yinzer stuff.

Harv 01-31-2013 02:21 PM

Where was this thread after the Ottawa game?

Flat Stanley 01-31-2013 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harv (Post 58754667)
Where was this thread after the Ottawa game?

Fleury played solid and we won.


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