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Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 08:48 AM

OT: PED's in Hockey
 
Saw this topic pop up in another thread and I felt like it should have a thread on its own. I've wanted to put this out to the forum for a while now but I wasn't sure how the mods would be with it as it leads to throwing out accusations at specific players etc...

So, without naming specific players... What do you think is the prevalence of PEDs in hockey?

coolasprICE 02-03-2013 09:44 AM

I'm not going to pretend that I have any real facts to base my opinion but I think that many NHL players most certainly take them.

Why wouldn't they? When ''heroes'' Lance Armstrong take them it's not inconceivable that hockey players like a goon, or the 3rd line grinder, or an aging superstar (cough, Selanne) take them.

Essentially, to assume that the NHL is a clean league is bordering closer to ignorance and naivety than anything else.

InglewoodJack 02-03-2013 09:46 AM

If I had to guess, anyone who's anybody in the NHL dopes. It's what you gotta do.

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolasprICE (Post 58960447)
I'm not going to pretend that I have any real facts to base my opinion but I think that many NHL players most certainly take them.

Why wouldn't they? When ''heroes'' Lance Armstrong take them it's not inconceivable that hockey players like a goon, or the 3rd line grinder, or an aging superstar (cough, Selanne) take them.

Essentially, to assume that the NHL is a clean league is bordering closer to ignorance and naivety than anything else.

Its in golf, baseball, football, track & field... No doubt its in hockey. I just think the league has taken the position that baseball did and will try to sweep it under the rug for as long as they can.

One of these days hockey will have its own Jose Canseco.

coolasprICE 02-03-2013 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58960527)

One of these days hockey will have its own Jose Canseco.

Does Georges Laraque count?

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolasprICE (Post 58960583)
Does Georges Laraque count?

Was thinking of him actually. Interstingly enough though he decided not to name names this time around. All it takes is one to speak up and the floodgates open.

And it could very well be him.

Roulin 02-03-2013 09:58 AM

Does anyone know how the NHL rule against PEDs is worded? Is it in the CBA or elsewhere?

Jigger77 02-03-2013 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58960749)
Was thinking of him actually. Interstingly enough though he decided not to name names this time around. All it takes is one to speak up and the floodgates open.

And it could very well be him.

Sorry, maybe I missed something but who didn't decide to name names?

WhiskeySeven 02-03-2013 10:00 AM

I'm pretty sure folks take HGH all over the place, kinda disheartening but what can you do

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigger77 (Post 58960837)
Sorry, maybe I missed something but who didn't decide to name names?

Georges Laraque came out a while ago and said a huge percentage of NHLers were juiced. He didn't name names but here's an excerpt from his book:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Georges Laraque
I can give you some clues here that will help you identify the ones using steroids, if you really feel like it. First, you just have to notice how some talented players will experience an efficiency loss as well as a weight loss every four years, those years being the ones where the Winter Olympics are held.

In the following season they make a strong comeback; they manage a mysterious return to form.

As for the tough guys, a statistics maniac can easily identify who's taking drugs and who's not. You just have to compare their last junior league's weight to the one they had arriving with the pros. Nobody, and I really mean nobody, can gain forty to seventy pounds in just one summer without taking anything suspicious. When you're in close contact with them, it's even easier to tell: the change in their voice, the swelling neck, the appearance of acne — they're not fooling anyone.

You can read more on him and his book here:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/...rn=nhl,wp16756

Jigger77 02-03-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58961381)
Georges Laraque came out a while ago and said a huge percentage of NHLers were juiced. He didn't name names but here's an excerpt from his book:

Thanks.

Unfortunately I would think he's probably right. It would be naive to claim that hockey is somehow exempt from them. I really don't know too much about it tbh. I don't even know how often or even if NHL players are tested.

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 10:26 AM

I'm actually suprised that most folks seem to agree with me on this. A few years back there were a lot more people who beleived otherwise and that it probably wasnt prevalent in hockey.

The more we see top atheletes getting caught though the more we realize how prevalent it is. I remember thinking that steroids couldn't help in baseball. I believed this for a long, long time and I was dead wrong. Sometimes you just need to see it to believe it and with Lance Armstrong (I guy everyone should've known was juicing) got caught I think that a lot of people finally accepted that its out there.

Roulin 02-03-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58961647)
I'm actually suprised that most folks seem to agree with me on this. A few years back there were a lot more people who beleived otherwise and that it probably wasnt prevalent in hockey.

The more we see top atheletes getting caught though the more we realize how prevalent it is. I remember thinking that steroids couldn't help in baseball. I believed this for a long, long time and I was dead wrong. Sometimes you just need to see it to believe it and with Lance Armstrong (I guy everyone should've known was juicing) got caught I think that a lot of people finally accepted that its out there.

Simmons puts it well:

But I don't know for sure. And that's the problem. There is no such thing as "the benefit of the doubt" anymore. Not in sports. Too many people took advantage. All the benefits are gone.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...k-ped-question

Andrei79 02-03-2013 10:48 AM

This is a pet subject of mine since I study and work in the field and would like to be a sports team doctor/consultant in a few years.

I think it would be pretty naive to think PEDs aren't prevalent in hockey. Hockey players are athletes, and high level athletes are competitive by nature. Athletes will always look for a competitive advantage, whether it be in the form of a cup of coffee, a slightly illegal stick, or steroids.

And steroids are cheap, and trainers are now multisport conditioning coaches. There's crossover between sports, there's knowledge sharing and expertise given.

Steroids are like an ace card. There's a fairly well known powerlifter who talked about it last year. They're not going to make you a champion, but they'll get you to the next step.

But if I put it another way. If you're a highly skilled 5'11" 170lbs player who knows an extra 25lbs of mass in the next two years would get you to the next level of play, say from the AHL to the NHL, or the third line to the first line, why wouldn't you do it? Millions of dollars are at play.

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roulin (Post 58962049)
Simmons puts it well:

But I don't know for sure. And that's the problem. There is no such thing as "the benefit of the doubt" anymore. Not in sports. Too many people took advantage. All the benefits are gone.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...k-ped-question

That was a great article. Surprised that he had the courage to speak out on his belief with Ray Lewis.

He definitely captures something here too... We can't really talk about our beliefs and have a truly honest discussion on this on a forum. Guys are presumed innocent so we can't just talk about those who we believe are juiced on a public message board.

He's right though... guys who come back from crazy injuries so quickly, players having career years in their late years and early 40s. The math just doesn't add up. And he's not even talking about the NHL.

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrei79 (Post 58962503)
This is a pet subject of mine since I study and work in the field and would like to be a sports team doctor/consultant in a few years.

I think it would be pretty naive to think PEDs aren't prevalent in hockey. Hockey players are athletes, and high level athletes are competitive by nature. Athletes will always look for a competitive advantage, whether it be in the form of a cup of coffee, a slightly illegal stick, or steroids.

And steroids are cheap, and trainers are now multisport conditioning coaches. There's crossover between sports, there's knowledge sharing and expertise given.

Steroids are like an ace card. There's a fairly well known powerlifter who talked about it last year. They're not going to make you a champion, but they'll get you to the next step.

But if I put it another way. If you're a highly skilled 5'11" 170lbs player who knows an extra 25lbs of mass in the next two years would get you to the next level of play, say from the AHL to the NHL, or the third line to the first line, why wouldn't you do it? Millions of dollars are at play.

What bothers me is that there's no WILL to stop it. Nobody wants to catch anything and all the leagues want to sweep it under the rug. The technology exists to catch at least some of this stuff but nobody wants to do it. The testing is a joke and the pro leagues don't care.

InglewoodJack 02-03-2013 11:01 AM

I don't even think doping is necessarily a bad thing now. Sure the idea of sports players using drugs to improve is shady, but it's revolutionized the game. The game wouldn't be as fast, as intense and as hard-hitting without PED. Plus, as a player in the league, you either juice or you get lost. Imagine someone who wanted to take the moral route and play clean only to end up being a mediocre player, whereas if he would've used PEDs, he'd be an upper level player? It might the difference between a couple million on your contract.

A1 02-03-2013 11:04 AM

NHL players must be tested for the olympics though, right?

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InglewoodJack (Post 58962995)
I don't even think doping is necessarily a bad thing now. Sure the idea of sports players using drugs to improve is shady, but it's revolutionized the game. The game wouldn't be as fast, as intense and as hard-hitting without PED. Plus, as a player in the league, you either juice or you get lost.

So the league should just let it continue? Some guys cheating and some guys not? We ignore the health implications and the fact that clean guys feel the need to cheat to make the league?

Really?
Quote:

Originally Posted by InglewoodJack (Post 58962995)
Imagine someone who wanted to take the moral route and play clean only to end up being a mediocre player, whereas if he would've used PEDs, he'd be an upper level player? It might the difference between a couple million on your contract.

No doubt. There is every reason to cheat and the league should recognize this and do something about it.

Undertakerqc 02-03-2013 11:15 AM

delete

Roulin 02-03-2013 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58963339)
So the league should just let it continue? Some guys cheating and some guys not? We ignore the health implications and the fact that clean guys feel the need to cheat to make the league?

This is really the heart of the issue, IMO. How many kids will sacrifice their health and quality of life to try and compete?

InglewoodJack 02-03-2013 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58963339)
So the league should just let it continue? Some guys cheating and some guys not? We ignore the health implications and the fact that clean guys feel the need to cheat to make the league?

Really?

Well I mean, what can you do? It's to the point where I feel as though if you're a pro athlete, you gotta dope or get left behind. We can argue whether this is morally right or not, but we all know this is a reality in pro sport. Now like I said, if player X doesn't dope because it's "wrong", he'll end up risking potentially millions in contract money. I'm not sure many players would do that.

And what can the league do? Take away PEDs, and you're slowing down the game. Less hits. Less speed. Slower shots, less saves, less fights, less everything. Hockey is already not as popular as baseball, basketball or football, imagine how the league would fare if it went clean?

The point I'm trying to make is that yes there's doping, yes you can argue that it's morally wrong, but at this point, you either dope, or you get left behind.


Regarding the health issue, hockey is dangerous enough without doping, I doubt the hockey powers really care about health.

Lafleurs Guy 02-03-2013 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InglewoodJack (Post 58964537)
Well I mean, what can you do? It's to the point where I feel as though if you're a pro athlete, you gotta dope or get left behind. We can argue whether this is morally right or not, but we all know this is a reality in pro sport. Now like I said, if player X doesn't dope because it's "wrong", he'll end up risking potentially millions in contract money. I'm not sure many players would do that.

The league can take it seriously and actually try to do something about it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by InglewoodJack (Post 58964537)
And what can the league do? Take away PEDs, and you're slowing down the game. Less hits. Less speed. Slower shots, less saves, less fights, less everything. Hockey is already not as popular as baseball, basketball or football, imagine how the league would fare if it went clean?

The point I'm trying to make is that yes there's doping, yes you can argue that it's morally wrong, but at this point, you either dope, or you get left behind.

Its all relative. If its a level playing field nobody gets left behind.

As for the game slowing down, nobody is going to stop watching. And I don't think that PEDs are going to make that much of a difference between what you see on the ice now vs what it would be without them. PEDs give the player the extra step, the ability to heal quicker but its not going to be noticable on the ice. Moreover, it won't be noticable in the stats because the players would be on equal footing.
Quote:

Originally Posted by InglewoodJack (Post 58964537)
Regarding the health issue, hockey is dangerous enough without doping, I doubt the hockey powers really care about health.

I don't think they care about anything other than dollars either and that's the problem.

Galchenyuk94 02-03-2013 12:40 PM

Some steroids depending on the esters don't stay in the system very long so it's very easy to pass a drug test. They are incredibly effective, they let you push yourself harder for longer and recover quicker as well as increase strength and increase lean mass. The fact is that we as fans want our athletes to juice. Also about the health risks, there hasn't been one scientific study that shows any health risks if taken in moderation. No deaths are linked to steroid use. Level the playing field and get rid of all drug testing and let the players juice IMO. The thing about steroids is that more isn't better, so it doesn't become an arms race to steroid abuse and health problems.

I know my stance on the subject won't be popular.

InglewoodJack 02-03-2013 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 58967165)
The league can take it seriously and actually try to do something about it.

Its all relative. If its a level playing field nobody gets left behind.

As for the game slowing down, nobody is going to stop watching. And I don't think that PEDs are going to make that much of a difference between what you see on the ice now vs what it would be without them. PEDs give the player the extra step, the ability to heal quicker but its not going to be noticable on the ice. Moreover, it won't be noticable in the stats because the players would be on equal footing.

I don't think they care about anything other than dollars either and that's the problem.

I disagree. The game would be less spectacular. Sure it would be a "level playing field", but it wouldn't be the same as it is now.
I think it's obvious that they only care about money, but that's the nature of a multi-billion dollar enterprise.
I think your problem with this is a purely moral one which I think would be hard to argue against, but I'm of the opinion that PEDs are just a fact of life in sports, and once players started juicing, you can't exactly go back to a clean league.


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