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-   -   Goaltending discussion thread (edit: Markstrom called up) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1342891)

flapanthersfan 02-06-2013 02:03 AM

Goaltending discussion thread (edit: Markstrom called up)
 
the team seems to be playing much better in front of our goalies. the last 3 games have been very well played games, but now it seems the goaltending is starting to flounder.

theodore has not played particularly well, but good enough to get the job done against winnipeg and buffalo (he's given up some pretty bad goals, though)

clemmensen on the other hand is abysmal. he's 0-2 now with a save % of .garbage%. the guy is, plain and simple, a bad goalie.

yes, i understand he is a backup and yes, i understand there's alot of teams out there stuck with backups who are just as bad as clemmensen is. but we don't have to be.

we're fortunate enough to have markstrom, primed and ready to play. he's been on an absolute tear in the ahl and there's no better time than now to introduce him to the nhl, even if it's as a "backup"

with the schedule so condensed, we cannot continue to piss away points due to poor goaltending like we did tonight against winnipeg. ESPECIALLY after our 1-5 start to the season. both goals in regulation were beyond soft and cost us a point (and gave a division rival two). if we have an even mediocre goalie in net we win that game 2-0. i find it laughable people are still trying to defend this guy. he's terrible, what game are you guys watching?

Markstrom is ready. he's proved it in the AHL. from all accounts, he's been incredible, often times stealing points for the Rampage with regularity. the condensed schedule will give Markstrom far more opportunities to play, even if he is brought up as a traditional backup, than a normal schedule would. and the way he is playing down there, there may not even be a reason to bring him up as a backup. a 50-50 split with Theo could be of benefit to everyone. Theodore isn't getting any younger, it gives him a chance to rest, and gives Markstrom a chance to get a taste of NHL hockey. all while strengthening the overall good of the team and their postseason chances.

one thing is for certain, he's a better goaltender than Clemmensen. that isn't arguable.he deserves to be here on that alone. i think the addition of Drew Shore is really proving how much of a difference some of these guys can be if given a legitimate chance.

or is there still some people out there who think we'd be better off with Mike Santorelli instead of Shore?

call up Markstrom. Now.

CanadianPantherFan 02-06-2013 02:51 AM

I endorse this message as #1A/B fan of Markie on here.

Gudbranson44 02-06-2013 04:01 AM

Agreed.

Boothinator 02-06-2013 06:35 AM

Completely with you!

J17 Vs Proclamation 02-06-2013 06:44 AM

Oh look, another person has extrapolated a 2 game sample size to have definitive meaning. Clap clap clap.

It astounds me how the majority of human kind can never reference something within a sample size, and understand it's limitations. Is Clemmensen a great goalie? No. But he's an ok backup if you don't expect too much, and his stats will even out.

Markstrom is in the AHL for a reason. He hasn't strung together a large sample size of dominance, for all his talents, and needs regularly playing time.

hoax15 02-06-2013 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation (Post 59152265)
Oh look, another person has extrapolated a 2 game sample size to have definitive meaning. Clap clap clap.

It astounds me how the majority of human kind can never reference something within a sample size, and understand it's limitations. Is Clemmensen a great goalie? No. But he's an ok backup if you don't expect too much, and his stats will even out.

Markstrom is in the AHL for a reason. He hasn't strung together a large sample size of dominance, for all his talents, and needs regularly playing time.

Season Team GP GA Mins Saves GAA SV% W L SOW SOL SOGA SOA SO% T SO
2012-13 Regular Season San Antonio Rampage 30 76 1784 901 2.56 0.922 14 14 0 2 5 15 0.667 0 3
2011-12 Regular Season San Antonio Rampage 32 71 1839 908 2.32 0.927 17 12 1 1 3 14 0.786 0 1

62 games a big enough sample size for you?

Blad Meaning Gud 02-06-2013 08:04 AM

Can't agree more. I'd even say its more because of how bad clemmer is, then wanting to see markie.. I'd rather have dgm up then clemmer too

SoupyFIN 02-06-2013 08:17 AM

Demoting Clemmensen only makes the situation worse. He needs to be traded for another soon-to-be UFA backup, so that we can have him off the books next year, re-sign Theo and finally call-up Markie for good.

Quickly looking at capgeek, most likely places Clemmer ($1,200,000) could end up:

Phoenix for Labarbera ($1,250,000), a sure way (with the never ending ownership saga that they have) to get a backup is to trade for one that has a year left, right?

Nashville for Mason ($1,500,000), Rinne is the bona-fide number 1 in Nashville, but they need a backup to play about 15 to 20 games. Clemmer fits the profile.

Winnipeg for Montoya ($601,000), again just like Nashville, Pavelec plays most of the games and Jets just need someone to play the rest.

Montreal for Budaj ($1,150,000), case Nashville&Winnipeg.

Edmonton for Khabibulin ($3,750,000), Khabi is yet to play a game this season. And with Oilers making Dubnyk their current and future number 1, Khabi could welcome a trade for more playing-time and a chance to resurrect his career.

Whether it's with another team, bought out or in the AHL, Clemmer won't be here to start the next season. I hated the 2 year deal from the beginning.

Montsy14 02-06-2013 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation (Post 59152265)
Oh look, another person has extrapolated a 2 game sample size to have definitive meaning. Clap clap clap.

It astounds me how the majority of human kind can never reference something within a sample size, and understand it's limitations. Is Clemmensen a great goalie? No. But he's an ok backup if you don't expect too much, and his stats will even out.

Markstrom is in the AHL for a reason. He hasn't strung together a large sample size of dominance, for all his talents, and needs regularly playing time.

It's a 48 game season. Do they really have the time to wait around for Clemmensen's numbers to round into form? How many lost points before the sample size is big enough?

Coolburn 02-06-2013 09:18 AM

You guys really need to remember that the org is pretty much set on letting Markstrom play in the AHL the entire yr this yr (baring injuries here). They want him to play a full season finally and he's going to do that before he's called up.

Thats not saying I wouldnt mind a trade of Clemmer so we can keep Theo to mentor Markstrom. I'm just not sure there's much of a market for Clemmer at this point.

Haj 02-06-2013 09:54 AM

I think Markstrom should not be called up.

He had rebound control issues during his stint last year. He needs as much playing time as possible to fine tune his game. Also, I think he should avoid the wear and tear of a compressed 48 game season.

I don't think replacing Clemmensen with Markstrom takes us from bubble playoff team to definite playoff team.

I've been wrong though.

goosecrosby 02-06-2013 09:56 AM

After the 5-1 victory on opening night, these are the number of goals scored against the panthers: 4, 4, 3, 7, 5, 3, 3, 3. Please tell me how a team can win while giving up AT LEAST 3 goals per game while being in the bottom 1/3 of the league in scoring. There is zero reason why the Panthers should keep Markstrom in the minors. Trade Clemmensen for a 7th round pick, as long as we open a spot, who cares?

Haj 02-06-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goosecrosby (Post 59155645)
After the 5-1 victory on opening night, these are the number of goals scored against the panthers: 4, 4, 3, 7, 5, 3, 3, 3. Please tell me how a team can win while giving up AT LEAST 3 goals per game while being in the bottom 1/3 of the league in scoring. There is zero reason why the Panthers should keep Markstrom in the minors. Trade Clemmensen for a 7th round pick, as long as we open a spot, who cares?

In some of those games, team defense was absolutely horrible. You're looking at the goals allowed per game, but not looking at why those goals were being scored. The numbers don't tell you about horrible turnovers, no break out, no offensive zone time.

Ken Dryden wouldn't have helped us win those games after Carolina.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 10:31 AM

"“He was all right. He would’ve liked to have the shot off the wing back,’’ Dineen said of Clemmensen, who had 18 saves on 21 shots. “We had our opportunities to try and score, but we didn’t have much on the power play tonight.’’

So the coach had no issue with his play but posters want to move Markstrom up because why? Because YOU don't feel comfortable with him in net? It's crazy to think that the BACKUP GOALIE is an issue. We were in a position to win that game last night. Have you seen Theo's stats on this year? Do you think he's that bad or do you think the team in front of him is playing poorly? It's the team in front of him. And geez, give the guy a break, it's only his second start of the season after almost zero training camp and pre-season. He's not going to look in prime shape. And there's no way you can say he didn't look better as the game went on.

We need to let Markstrom develop properly and be patient. This is the formula for not screwing up prospects. Everyone loves Drew Shore and we developed him properly. Goalies take even more time. And there's no way it can be good for Markstrom to be put into a situation where he's playing behind a team that doesn't play D properly, turns the puck over, and makes dumb decisions. At the NHL level he'll get lit up and lose his confidence. He still needs to work on his rebound control and play as much as possible at the AHL level. Next season it's his job to win at the NHL level.

It's so weird how obsessed some of you are with hating on our backup goalie who was a good backup goalie last year. His stats were good, he won big games for us, and he's a cheap contract.

We'll see Markstrom eventually but there's no need for him right now.

If anything, call up nobody and demote Kovalev.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 10:39 AM

Also, why are you bringing up stats when he's started in two games and played in another in a cleanup duty?

angry_treefrog 02-06-2013 10:55 AM

Santos said in his interview that due to the condensed schedule he expects Markstrom to get some games in the NHL this year.

If he plays well enough in those games it would be hard to send him back down.

Clemmer wasn't bad last game, but this team relies on above average goaltending (always has). Slightly below average netminding usually leads to a loss.

I'm fine with keeping Markstrom in the AHL if that's what Team Tallon decides, but Markstrom isn't an 18 year old any more. I don't think it would scar him to play in front of this team now that they seem to have gotten their act together.

I felt very differently a couple of weeks ago when the play of the defensive corps reminded me of the montage at the end of Benny Hill episodes.

angry_treefrog 02-06-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainingRats (Post 59156921)
"“He was all right. He would’ve liked to have the shot off the wing back,’’ Dineen said of Clemmensen, who had 18 saves on 21 shots. “We had our opportunities to try and score, but we didn’t have much on the power play tonight.’’

So the coach had no issue with his play
but posters want to move Markstrom up because why? Because YOU don't feel comfortable with him in net? It's crazy to think that the BACKUP GOALIE is an issue. We were in a position to win that game last night. Have you seen Theo's stats on this year? Do you think he's that bad or do you think the team in front of him is playing poorly? It's the team in front of him. And geez, give the guy a break, it's only his second start of the season after almost zero training camp and pre-season. He's not going to look in prime shape. And there's no way you can say he didn't look better as the game went on.

We need to let Markstrom develop properly and be patient. This is the formula for not screwing up prospects. Everyone loves Drew Shore and we developed him properly. Goalies take even more time. And there's no way it can be good for Markstrom to be put into a situation where he's playing behind a team that doesn't play D properly, turns the puck over, and makes dumb decisions. At the NHL level he'll get lit up and lose his confidence. He still needs to work on his rebound control and play as much as possible at the AHL level. Next season it's his job to win at the NHL level.

It's so weird how obsessed some of you are with hating on our backup goalie who was a good backup goalie last year. His stats were good, he won big games for us, and he's a cheap contract.

We'll see Markstrom eventually but there's no need for him right now.

If anything, call up nobody and demote Kovalev.

Well, honestly what would you expect him to say.

Dineen doesn't like to single out players - he seemed very uncomfortable calling out his team after the last Philly debacle.

I agree that Clemmer is not the biggest problem on this team... but if this team is serious about making the playoffs this year after a disastrous start, then every single point from here on out is critical.The back-up will be relied on more heavily due to the condensed schedule. Asking for improvement at that position is not unreasonable.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angry_treefrog (Post 59157941)
Well, honestly what would you expect him to say.

Dineen doesn't like to single out players - he seemed very uncomfortable calling out his team after the last Philly debacle.

I agree that Clemmer is not the biggest problem on this team... but if this team is serious about making the playoffs this year after a disastrous start, then every single point from here on out is critical.The back-up will be relied on more heavily due to the condensed schedule. Asking for improvement at that position is not unreasonable.

He'd say something along the lines of, "we need to get better goaltending, I understand Clemmer is only starting his second game but we need him to play well because he's an important part of our team."

Clemmer is fine. He was 30th last year in save % with goalies with a minimum of 20 starts and 28th in GAA with goalies with a minimum of 20 starts. He's good enough. We have an above average backup.

Dineen needs to play Kovalev less 5 on 5 and maybe put in Skille. Everyone on D is starting to look better. Even Kuba and Weaver. Things are weird with a shortened training camp and no preseason. As Bob Mackenzie pointed out, you pretty much know where your team is at the fourth week of the season based on the last lockout. I think we're trending in the right direction. We can still put ourselves in a position to make the playoffs. We're very close right now.

pantherbot 02-06-2013 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainingRats (Post 59156921)
"“He was all right. He would’ve liked to have the shot off the wing back,’’ Dineen said of Clemmensen, who had 18 saves on 21 shots. “We had our opportunities to try and score, but we didn’t have much on the power play tonight.’’

So the coach had no issue with his play but posters want to move Markstrom up because why? Because YOU don't feel comfortable with him in net? It's crazy to think that the BACKUP GOALIE is an issue. We were in a position to win that game last night. Have you seen Theo's stats on this year? Do you think he's that bad or do you think the team in front of him is playing poorly? It's the team in front of him. And geez, give the guy a break, it's only his second start of the season after almost zero training camp and pre-season. He's not going to look in prime shape. And there's no way you can say he didn't look better as the game went on.

We need to let Markstrom develop properly and be patient. This is the formula for not screwing up prospects. Everyone loves Drew Shore and we developed him properly. Goalies take even more time. And there's no way it can be good for Markstrom to be put into a situation where he's playing behind a team that doesn't play D properly, turns the puck over, and makes dumb decisions. At the NHL level he'll get lit up and lose his confidence. He still needs to work on his rebound control and play as much as possible at the AHL level. Next season it's his job to win at the NHL level.

It's so weird how obsessed some of you are with hating on our backup goalie who was a good backup goalie last year. His stats were good, he won big games for us, and he's a cheap contract.

We'll see Markstrom eventually but there's no need for him right now.

If anything, call up nobody and demote Kovalev.

You may think that "alright" is good enough, but I don't. Let's face it, this team is mediocore right now and we need excellent goaltending to help us win games. "Alright" goaltending is not enough, but that's what we're getting right now.

Bringing up Markstrom to replace Clemmer and to give Theo some more rest so he is fresh will give us better goaltending and make us more competitive.

I really don't see how bringing up Markstrom will screw him up. he's playing in his third AHL season now and there aren't that many games remaining in the current season. If anything, a 50/50 or 40/60 split up in the NHL would give him more and better playing time.

Just bring him up already and at least give him a chance to prove himself. We don't lose anything by having him come up for 3 games. Guy deserves a chance.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherbot (Post 59159553)
You may think that "alright" is good enough, but I don't. Let's face it, this team is mediocore right now and we need excellent goaltending to help us win games. "Alright" goaltending is not enough, but that's what we're getting right now.

Bringing up Markstrom to replace Clemmer and to give Theo some more rest so he is fresh will give us better goaltending and make us more competitive.

I really don't see how bringing up Markstrom will screw him up. he's playing in his third AHL season now and there aren't that many games remaining in the current season. If anything, a 50/50 or 40/60 split up in the NHL would give him more and better playing time.

Just bring him up already and at least give him a chance to prove himself. We don't lose anything by having him come up for 3 games. Guy deserves a chance.

Yes, I think giving up 2 goals on the road in regulation is good enough to win games. I'm sorry you disagree. If giving up one goal is the expectation then prepare to never have clemmer or theo or markstrom meet your expectations.

Markstrom WILL be playing at the NHL level this season. It's unnecessary to demote Clemmer to make room for him right now. If you trade him or theo, then okay. But goaltending is not a problem. We're getting better each game. The Rangers and the Kings are struggling and they have the two of the top goalies in the league. It has a lot more to do with sloppy play and poor decision making than with Theo or Clemmer.

It may not screw him up but the whole point in developing prospects is to refine their game. He can work on positioning, rebound control, etc. much more easily at the AHL level than he can at the NHL level where play is much faster. Tallon isn't shy about bringing guys up or giving them a chance. They must want him to get more starts in down there and keep working on things, dominating, and getting his confidence sky high.

The biggest problem we have is scoring goals/goals against 5 on 5. We're dead last. GAA is terrible too but again, I wouldn't put it on the goalies.

adam graves 02-06-2013 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainingRats (Post 59156921)
"“He was all right. He would’ve liked to have the shot off the wing back,’’ Dineen said of Clemmensen, who had 18 saves on 21 shots. “We had our opportunities to try and score, but we didn’t have much on the power play tonight.’’

So the coach had no issue with his play but posters want to move Markstrom up because why?

Not uncommon two people listened to the same comment, yet heard 2 different things.

Dineen, who never likes dissing players, says he was ok, specifically points out oneof the three goals.. Thats not having no issue, thats having a major issue. He didnt say " He did everything i asked for; he didnt say "he stepped up when we needed him" , etc etc. I think he was clearly unsatisfied with Clemmer's performance. We will never know.

I dont think we disagree on Clemmers performance that much. I think we would agree that it was " Serviceable." Where we part I believe is you would keep him right there for the remainder of the year....

I would not. I believe this team can make the playoffs and go deep with Markstrom/theo. We are a decent team but require outstanding goaltending. Clemmer does not give that to you, and in a shortened season Its even more glaring. Markstrom gives us the best chance to bring back last years excitement, to make the playoffs, and bring the franchise up another level once again.

So if your of the premise of perhaps writing off the season, and thus ok with a serviceable back up, then the status quo is just fine. Im not. I think Markstrom playing 10-15 of the 40 games left gains us 5-8 points more than clemmer would and that IS the difference.

gizmo12688 02-06-2013 12:35 PM

A lot of people are assuming that Theo comes back next season. As much as I would like a Theo/Markstrom tandem next season, don't count on it just yet.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 59161449)
Not uncommon two people listened to the same comment, yet heard 2 different things.

Dineen, who never likes dissing players, says he was ok, specifically points out oneof the three goals.. Thats not having no issue, thats having a major issue. He didnt say " He did everything i asked for; he didnt say "he stepped up when we needed him" , etc etc. I think he was clearly unsatisfied with Clemmer's performance. We will never know.

I dont think we disagree on Clemmers performance that much. I think we would agree that it was " Serviceable." Where we part I believe is you would keep him right there for the remainder of the year....

I would not. I believe this team can make the playoffs and go deep with Markstrom/theo. We are a decent team but require outstanding goaltending. Clemmer does not give that to you, and in a shortened season Its even more glaring. Markstrom gives us the best chance to bring back last years excitement, to make the playoffs, and bring the franchise up another level once again.

So if your of the premise of perhaps writing off the season, and thus ok with a serviceable back up, then the status quo is just fine. Im not. I think Markstrom playing 10-15 of the 40 games left gains us 5-8 points more than clemmer would and that IS the difference.

We made the playoffs with Theo and Clemm last season. We can do it again. Our forwards are better and you could make the argument our D is as good. Kulikov and Guds are a year older, and Strachan is playing well. We need guys like Weaver to stop making mistakes and Weiss to start to produce. Kuba has thankfully improved a bit.

Why do you think the Rangers are struggling? Do you think it's because Henrik? Should they make a goalie change? It's because they're having a lot of the same problems we have had. And the only reason our record is not ideal is because we had a ton of injuries. Since we got pretty much everyone back we've been a team that can make the playoffs. We're DEAD LAST 5 on 5 gf/ga. That's not going to get this team in the playoffs or make any kind of run. That has to do with poor breakouts by the D, sloppy plays, and dumb decision making by the skaters.

adam graves 02-06-2013 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainingRats (Post 59162365)
We made the playoffs with Theo and Clemm last season. We can do it again. Our forwards are better and you could make the argument our D is as good. Kulikov and Guds are a year older, and Strachan is playing well. We need guys like Weaver to stop making mistakes and Weiss to start to produce. Kuba has thankfully improved a bit.

Why do you think the Rangers are struggling? Do you think it's because Henrik? Should they make a goalie change? It's because they're having a lot of the same problems we have had. And the only reason our record is not ideal is because we had a ton of injuries. Since we got pretty much everyone back we've been a team that can make the playoffs. We're DEAD LAST 5 on 5 gf/ga. That's not going to get this team in the playoffs or make any kind of run. That has to do with poor breakouts by the D, sloppy plays, and dumb decision making by the skaters.

All you say above is true.

Simply saying we have a better chance with Markstrom.

RainingRats 02-06-2013 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 59162879)
All you say above is true.

Simply saying we have a better chance with Markstrom.

we might. but no reason for the OP to call for the demotion of clemmer after last night.


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