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-   -   Rec league limits -- how much can I get away with? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1343061)

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 10:15 AM

Rec league limits -- how much can I get away with?
 
I am switching to D in beer league/rec league. D level. I have been playing wing but it is not ideal for me and D is just a more natural spot. I really have not played it much though in organized hockey. (first season). I am 6'4, 240. I can move anyone I want. What I wanted some advice on was just how much you can typically get away with in a no-check D league. This is all new to me so I honestly don't know. My first priority is clearing the crease.

Can I just push a guy out?
Do I have to keep from fully extending an arm(like getting caught holding in FB).
Can I move them with elbows or does it have to be just a body on body sumo type of thing?
Can I do anything I want with the stick short of actually pinning it against them and holding them there?
Also, should I stake position in front of them if I cannot clear them out, or tuck behind them to try the stick lift?

I know these must seem like amazingly basic questions, but I am an amazingly basic new(old guy) player....

esidebill 02-06-2013 10:22 AM

I find that most don't have a problem with pushing or fighting for position in front of the goal. Put a bit of glove or butt into them. From what I've experienced, checking is different then pushing. The main things that are called are the usual hooking, high stick and tripping.

Lifting the stick on a one timer attempt is a great way to gain possession of the puck in-front of the net.

Jarick 02-06-2013 10:38 AM

You can push/move a guy from the front of the net, but you can't shove, crosscheck, elbow, slash, hack, etc. And with your size, if the ref sees a guy toppling over next to you, you're going to get called for penalties you might not deserve.

Basic way to clear the crease is a normal grip on your stick, have it parallel to the ice, about your waist level. Put it up against the other guy's hip, butt, small of the back, whatever, somewhere in his "core". Then drive him out.

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 10:45 AM

So, if I read you correctly, what you are saying is that I can pretty much move them out with my hands, but I need to keep it low on the body so I don't topple them over from the top. Is that correct?

TieClark 02-06-2013 10:46 AM

Depends entirely on the league, but I think the biggest thing is to avoid the jerk like pushing (cross checks, punching like motions to the back) because that will piss guys off and cause problems.

esidebill 02-06-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59159879)
So, if I read you correctly, what you are saying is that I can pretty much move them out with my hands, but I need to keep it low on the body so I don't topple them over from the top. Is that correct?

High hands is sure to draw a penalty or piss someone off.

Ozz 02-06-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59158557)
I am switching to D in beer league/rec league. D level. I have been playing wing but it is not ideal for me and D is just a more natural spot. I really have not played it much though in organized hockey. (first season). I am 6'4, 240. I can move anyone I want. What I wanted some advice on was just how much you can typically get away with in a no-check D league. This is all new to me so I honestly don't know. My first priority is clearing the crease.

Can I just push a guy out?
Do I have to keep from fully extending an arm(like getting caught holding in FB).
Can I move them with elbows or does it have to be just a body on body sumo type of thing?
Can I do anything I want with the stick short of actually pinning it against them and holding them there?
Also, should I stake position in front of them if I cannot clear them out, or tuck behind them to try the stick lift?

I know these must seem like amazingly basic questions, but I am an amazingly basic new(old guy) player....


Depends on many things. No matter what input you get, it'll all depend on the refs and how they call a game at any given time. Often I'll get a guy run up on me and I'll slam him against the boards or shove him on his ass, sometimes I get called and sometimes I don't.

I'm 5'10" and in my time playing at my current leagues I've been between 205-220lbs. I'm also a powerlifter and am quite strong, so sometimes a "normal" shove that anyone else would get away with turns out to be overboard for the refs. But then again, I've once thrown a fat guy who was crowding our crease *over* our goalie and off the crossbar without getting a call. He cross-checked me and so he went for a ride.

Anywhere I play, I stay very even-keeled until someone gets rough with me. Then I kick it up and see what I can get away with. As you get to know your refs you'll get a better idea of what they'll let you do,too.

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 11:17 AM

Okay, some good advice here. I don't mind pissing people off, in fact, I probably need to. Our team has 14 penalty minutes in 10 games(and 6 of them or too many men bench minors)... so we need to show some attitude I think. I want to play hard, physical hockey without just being a dick about it. We are a new team and most every other team at our level(and some teams that should have been leveled up) have been together 5+ years, so we pretty well get slaughtered every week. I think some attitude is called for.

Very good points about drawing penalties purely based on my size though. When I was on the wing and would be in the other crease, I would have a D man that from time to time would just constantly pound me in the back. Not enough to do much, just enough to irritate and distract. Is that considered the dick move, or just hockey?

Also, what about moves like the can opener and grabbing the back of the pants and running them out? I have seen those too... how close to the line is that stuff?

Jarick 02-06-2013 12:34 PM

Honestly it sounds like any of these things you're trying to do would just open yourself up for penalties, piss people off, and potentially get folks hurt. There is absolutely NO need to be physical in a no-contact recreational league. It's not the NHL. You can push them, you can't shove or hit them. With your size, it should be pretty easy to move guys out of the crease 99% of the time.

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 01:04 PM

Yeah, I guess the distinction I am after is between a push and a shove. Those both seem like the same thing to me. This is a no-check league, but definitely not a no-contact league. There is a lot of physical play going on. I am just trying to stay on the right side of it and you use my size(cause is sure as hell aint my skating ability right now) to my advantage. I appreciate the input. Thanks.

esidebill 02-06-2013 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59166779)
Yeah, I guess the distinction I am after is between a push and a shove. Those both seem like the same thing to me. This is a no-check league, but definitely not a no-contact league. There is a lot of physical play going on. I am just trying to stay on the right side of it and you use my size(cause is sure as hell aint my skating ability right now) to my advantage. I appreciate the input. Thanks.

Nothing worse than a big guy who can't skate, haha. It's a scary thing.

Jarick 02-06-2013 01:44 PM

Ah, meant "no check", not "no contact".

Pushing a guy to me is driving with your legs and body. Like if you were going to move a car...you wouldn't push with your arms, you'd get low and push with your legs.

Shoving is standing still and literally shoving him with your arms. Not sure if it's legal or not, but a lot of refs will call you for interference or cross checking.

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 01:51 PM

Ok, that makes sense then. And that is what I was trying to get at -- how to play hard but clean. Should be fun to try this out. Winger just got to be boring for me since we are usually trapped in our own end. This should be a bit more fun.

And yes... a big lurch that can't skate IS a scary thing. I can skate decent enough, but not well enough to scare anyone, that is for sure:-)

Jarick 02-06-2013 01:53 PM

Yeah prefer when our big guy (about your size) plays D over wing. Hell of a lot harder to score against.

Doshell Propivo 02-06-2013 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59161207)
we need to show some attitude I think. I want to play hard, physical hockey without just being a dick about it. We are a new team and most every other team at our level(and some teams that should have been leveled up) have been together 5+ years, so we pretty well get slaughtered every week. I think some attitude is called for.

What you need is to have fun, get a work out and not get hurt. It's freakin D level beer league. C'mon man. Attitude? :shakehead

I'm all for competitve play but keep it in perspective. Err on the side of the Golden Rule.

fryer98 02-06-2013 01:56 PM

Do me a favor, since you seem to want to play physical...

When the goalie freezes the puck and the winger never touches your goalie and is just standing there when the whistle blows, don't insist on hitting/pushing him because that's what they do in the NHL. :laugh:

That's the worst.

mistrhanky 02-06-2013 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fryer98 (Post 59169561)
Do me a favor, since you seem to want to play physical...

When the goalie freezes the puck and the winger never touches your goalie and is just standing there when the whistle blows, don't insist on hitting/pushing him because that's what they do in the NHL. :laugh:

That's the worst.

Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I think perhaps people don't understand my context of 'attitude'. My team, god love 'em, does a lot of watching. They watch three guys stand in front of the crease. They watch the puck. The watch wingers fall over our goalie and give him a little extra shove getting up. The poke at the puck, but don't play the stick. We have racked up 16 PIM in 10 games(three from bench minors). The next lowest PIM in the league is 78 minutes. The Ref's have commented that we cannot let ourselves just get pushed around out there and need to protect our goalie. We surrender 40+ SOG per game, most from inside the slot. This is not every player, but a lot of them. They aren't bad guys at all, just not willing to play the body very often.

Now, if people think I am a dick because I don't like our goalie(our best player by far) get trampled on, and being outnumbered in our crease all the time, then so be it. I think you do have to have some attitude about now getting steamrolled. I am not talking about being Doug Glatt... but you can't be LaFlamme either. I don't see where battling for pucks, playing the stick, "pushing", etc is anything but good hockey. It's beer league, there should never be anything that would leave a bad taste in your mouth once the whistle blows. I can't be the only one that thinks good hard competition is one of the best things about this game. Hell, I would play soccer otherwise.:D

deeman 02-06-2013 02:20 PM

Also, in terms of clearing the crease and the front of the net - if I can manage to get myself in front of the forward who is trying to setup shop and then back into him with my arse it seems to be pretty effective.

Your blocking his ability to see the forwards in the corners, your able to intercept a pass to him and your able to move him out with your rear while keeping an eye on the play. Itís not ideal for all situations but seems to work better than going behind him.

Jarick 02-06-2013 02:52 PM

If you've got the guy's stick tied up, he won't score. Moving him from the crease is good if he's screening the goalie, but if he's say 10 feet out no real reason to shove him around. Just stand next to him with your stick under his and get ready to lift or tie it up or intercept the pass.

rinkrat22 02-06-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59170365)
Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I think perhaps people don't understand my context of 'attitude'. My team, god love 'em, does a lot of watching. They watch three guys stand in front of the crease. They watch the puck. The watch wingers fall over our goalie and give him a little extra shove getting up. The poke at the puck, but don't play the stick. We have racked up 16 PIM in 10 games(three from bench minors). The next lowest PIM in the league is 78 minutes. The Ref's have commented that we cannot let ourselves just get pushed around out there and need to protect our goalie. We surrender 40+ SOG per game, most from inside the slot. This is not every player, but a lot of them. They aren't bad guys at all, just not willing to play the body very often.

Now, if people think I am a dick because I don't like our goalie(our best player by far) get trampled on, and being outnumbered in our crease all the time, then so be it. I think you do have to have some attitude about now getting steamrolled. I am not talking about being Doug Glatt... but you can't be LaFlamme either. I don't see where battling for pucks, playing the stick, "pushing", etc is anything but good hockey. It's beer league, there should never be anything that would leave a bad taste in your mouth once the whistle blows. I can't be the only one that thinks good hard competition is one of the best things about this game. Hell, I would play soccer otherwise.:D



we gotta help this guy out with some better hockey movies to quote :D

Ricky Bobby 02-06-2013 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59170365)
Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I think perhaps people don't understand my context of 'attitude'. My team, god love 'em, does a lot of watching. They watch three guys stand in front of the crease. They watch the puck. The watch wingers fall over our goalie and give him a little extra shove getting up. The poke at the puck, but don't play the stick. We have racked up 16 PIM in 10 games(three from bench minors). The next lowest PIM in the league is 78 minutes. The Ref's have commented that we cannot let ourselves just get pushed around out there and need to protect our goalie. We surrender 40+ SOG per game, most from inside the slot. This is not every player, but a lot of them. They aren't bad guys at all, just not willing to play the body very often.

Now, if people think I am a dick because I don't like our goalie(our best player by far) get trampled on, and being outnumbered in our crease all the time, then so be it. I think you do have to have some attitude about now getting steamrolled. I am not talking about being Doug Glatt... but you can't be LaFlamme either. I don't see where battling for pucks, playing the stick, "pushing", etc is anything but good hockey. It's beer league, there should never be anything that would leave a bad taste in your mouth once the whistle blows. I can't be the only one that thinks good hard competition is one of the best things about this game. Hell, I would play soccer otherwise.:D

By the sounds of it your team just lacks the intensity and maybe even the skill to play in the division your in.

If a guy fall into or runs your goalie on purpose I still think it's fair game to also attempt to mildly injure that player by putting all your weight into that guy and driving him into the board or giving him a hard whack on the back of the legs. Or a million other things like short elbows in the kidneys. If a player is going to be enough of a dick to run a goalie he has what is coming to him.

Generally though in front of the net with your size you should be able to box guy out often enough so just try to spot where he wants to go and beat him to that spot. Slapping a guys stick lightly who might be getting the puck also tend to mess players up at the level and rarely gets called. Hitting a guys gloves also work. Just look at what the toughest Dmen are like that you've played against that are difficult and annoying to play against but also toe that line. That will give you a good indication of what you can do.

hockeymass 02-07-2013 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 59161207)
Okay, some good advice here. I don't mind pissing people off, in fact, I probably need to. Our team has 14 penalty minutes in 10 games(and 6 of them or too many men bench minors)... so we need to show some attitude I think. I want to play hard, physical hockey without just being a dick about it. We are a new team and most every other team at our level(and some teams that should have been leveled up) have been together 5+ years, so we pretty well get slaughtered every week. I think some attitude is called for.

Very good points about drawing penalties purely based on my size though. When I was on the wing and would be in the other crease, I would have a D man that from time to time would just constantly pound me in the back. Not enough to do much, just enough to irritate and distract. Is that considered the dick move, or just hockey?

Also, what about moves like the can opener and grabbing the back of the pants and running them out? I have seen those too... how close to the line is that stuff?

Racking up PIMs isn't really a show of attitude so much as being a jerk. It's not the NHL. In my experience beer league refs usually let the little stuff go and only blow the whistle for flagrant stuff like hard slashes and blatant trips. Everyone's trying to have fun, no need to muscle anyone around to intimidate.

Ozz 02-07-2013 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeymass (Post 59217819)
Racking up PIMs isn't really a show of attitude so much as being a jerk. It's not the NHL. In my experience beer league refs usually let the little stuff go and only blow the whistle for flagrant stuff like hard slashes and blatant trips. Everyone's trying to have fun, no need to muscle anyone around to intimidate.

Just being devil's advocate here, but to some that is fun. :laugh: I'm not saying to go out and hurt people, but if you have a need to get into the other team's head in order to change the flow of the game, you've got to do what you've got to do (within the rules, of course). If anyone gets rough, get rough back and don't be a dick.

My teammates get into little scuffles with guys about every other game in one of the leagues we're in. I never involve myself w/that. That's the mindset of people there, though. The other league, we jaw but rarely get into shoving matches. Any physicality is during plays and that's all. Only once did I ever do anything I personally felt was not "right", and that was a perfectly clean shoulder check right into a guy's sternum. Dropped him like a ton of bricks. He was slashing me in his zone, I told him to F off, he taunted me to come and do something about it. We were up a few goals and were more skilled than they were so in the next play he opened himself up and I pulled a rare move and just steamrolled him. It's a non-check league but is contact-heavy. We were cool after that, I made sure to shake his hand before the line even formed and ensure everything was cool. That's my thing.

Like I said before, I'm a big & strong dude though very reserved. I'm skilled and fast enough that I can hang w/the top dogs, but if we get ourselves into a rut and need to change some momentum, anyone who bodies or shoves me is getting a big surprise. When that happens, most people are likely to play differently because they don't know if you're going to clobber them, cheap shot them (I would never, honestly), or smash them through the boards. When you shove a guy with one arm while protecting the puck and he goes flying, or when their "big guy" shoves you off balance a bit and then you throw him one that looks like you hit him going full speed, that gets into their heads and they'll leave you alone more often than not.

Being rough has its place, but IMO in beer leagues it can't be abused lest you come off like a total dick who has no other option. Sometimes though, if they think you're a nut they're going to be thinking about what crazy **** you might do the whole time rather than simply playing.

hockeymass 02-07-2013 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozz (Post 59218463)
Just being devil's advocate here, but to some that is fun. :laugh: I'm not saying to go out and hurt people, but if you have a need to get into the other team's head in order to change the flow of the game, you've got to do what you've got to do (within the rules, of course). If anyone gets rough, get rough back and don't be a dick.

I don't really feel like that accomplishes anything but raising tempers. Obviously you have to stand your ground, but I just get annoyed when guys respond to goals by getting salty. It's a game. Respond on the scoreboard.

Here's how I feel. Everyone's there to have fun. There's no scouts in the stands, nobody's gonna hand you a contract because they like your grit. It's fine to step into contact a little bit or push a guy out of the slot, but trying to skirt the rules is just going to get people mad, and the refs shouldn't have to go out of their way to keep everyone in line. Players should police themselves and police their teammates and if you can't contribute without getting chippy then play down a division.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just really hate when we have to all sit around because two tough guys decided to get handsy. I like scoring goals and I like skating and I can't do those things when it gets out of hand.

Beville 02-07-2013 10:18 AM

As far as im concerned, from my own perspective of reffing non-checking contact rec hockey I'll say this...

As long as you're not throwing your weight around, you're fine...

IF you decide you want to 'push' players around, that's fine, If you're going to GUIDE someone into the boards that's fine as well...

Basically, play with their bodies, just don't take liberties on them...


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