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-   -   Speculation: Why aren't the Avs a "1st CLASS" organization anymore? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1343199)

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 12:53 PM

Why aren't the Avs a "1st CLASS" organization anymore?
 
Well since speculation that the Colorado Avalanche are not a "1st Class" organization momentarily thread jacked the 3rd ROR Thread I thought we should start a new thread to:

1) vent on what the Avs do wrong,

2) make suggestions on what other NHL clubs do that the Avs should emulate, and

3) new ideas on what the NHL should do to improve their "brand".

1.) The idea that winning cures everything is true to a point. Your fans are willing to overlook the lack of communication while your team is competing for the Cup... but once the winning ways seem gone and mediocrity or worse is setting in... (as Josh McDaniels, former head coach of the Denver Broncos, learned he was here) once the losing starts and you still refuse to talk to the media & to wit the fans we'll start to look for a short piece of rope and a tall tree to help you hang yourself with. IMO this has to be coming from PL and not KSE & "silent" Stan or his son Josh because George Karl is on the radio as well as GM Masai Ujiri.

2.) As a former season ticket holder (from the final seasons at McNichols Sports Arena until a year or so after the end of the Brad May experiment :shakehead) I think I can speak to the outdatedness of Pepsi Center I find it hard to believe that it could be as bad as the jump from "Big Mac" to "the Can". Not to say that some things like the jumbotron couldn't be upgraded after 13 years. I can't speak of what other teams do since just watching on national broadcasts (nhl network, nbc, etc.) you don't get an idea of what those teams may be offering their fans. One thing I like that the Avs did this year is the chance to pick your games in their 14-game fan plan, for this lockout shortened season, trying to get fans back. I was interested in the past but didn't like the handful of lower level opponents' games you had to have for the one game you looked forward to seeing. Between that and being laid off/under employed for the last 5 years has kept me from trying the 14-game fan plan.

3.) I know back it the day when the NHL was on FOX that not many hockey purists like the glowing puck tracker that flashed to red when a shot was taken but the NHL has to think outside the box to get the general sports fan to watch. HDTV is great to see whats going on now but I think they need to try some new things. The NFL has games with the camera suspended over the field that hangs down and can track the play... maybe something like that could be tried? IIRC the '02 Olympics had multiple cameras surrounding the ice that basically pivot the view around the arena and follow the play in a replay situation but it was a bit jarring going from the better resolution live TV cameras to the lower res cameras that they were using at the time but it was a cool concept. With everyone using the HiDef GoPRO cameras now you can't tell me they couldn't use those to similar extent and give it a try for special games like the Winter Classic, Allstar & Cup final games? Heck for the summer Olympics NBC has had the camera on tracks that follows the action for all the track & swimming events but I don't think its practical to have something mounted on the boards or glass to do something like that for hockey.

Huis Clos* 02-06-2013 12:54 PM

Because they don't win.

They refuse to try anything other than the "Avalanche" way.

CalderKing21 02-06-2013 01:07 PM

i really think a good majority of this perception is due to the cheapness shown by ownership since the first lockout. which a lot had to due with the cap being so low that it screwed us over.

the perception that ownership would rather spend on the nuggets than focus on the Avs is alarming.
if you go out and land 1-2 bigger type FA's and they enjoy their stay here the "not a first class organization" stigma goes away.
but when you're cheap, don't re-sign fan favorites and don't replace them with better ones that tends to frustate fans and cause this perception to happen.

i'm not saying the Avs are perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
but if you open up the check book and land a few guys then this doesn't spring up as often.

trying to do this the Avs way has tended to backfire recently though.
Giguere was horrible in his tenure and they refuse to really go outside of the organization to find guys who can help the FO. instead of completely revamping the franchise from top to bottom they contine to try and change the man in the suit and say it's different.

Av-merican 02-06-2013 01:47 PM

1.) They're an organization that's in a good hockey market that does absolutely NOTHING to market or engage the community. "It's All About the A" pretty much sums up their marketing strategy--casual fans have no earthly idea who these guys are. It's sad that Matt Duchene's Twitter feed has done 10X more effective marketing than Jean Martineau and his merry band of do-nothings.

As far as the on-ice failings of this team, I've made pretty clear what I think Sherman and the Avs have done wrong this year, so I won't rehash.

2.) For starters, fire Jean Martineau and hire a communications/PR director who actually comes from and has a vested interest in the Denver Metro community, not a Lacroix foot soldier. Get a marketing professional who actually knows what they're doing.

Refurbish the Pepsi Center, update it a little. The fact that the Denver friggin' Cutthroats put an HD screen in before the Avalanche did is beyond embarrassing.

Eradicate Altitude TV and radio. Quit trying so damned hard to control the message (and by control, they've largely just tamped it down). Let Fox/Root/whatever broadcast the games and let The Fan do the radio broadcasts, and let both have full editorial control, i.e., rip the team when it deserves such criticism. Right now, apart from Rycroft the Avs portion of Altitude is full of happy homers. I'm reluctant to say get rid of Altitude because a really cool girl I graduated with does a lot for the Nuggets on there, but I think the Avs did themselves a disservice by trying to go it alone on TV and radio.

Have Sherman or whoever the hell the GM is come out and do pressers. Again, dude doesn't have to be Brian Burke, but it would be nice to have SOME transparency in this organization. It's not to much for fans to at least have some idea what the plan is and what direction the team is going.

Overall...SEND THE MESSAGE that this organization actually cares about putting a winning product on the ice. The perception is out there that the Kroenkes only care about the Nuggets, and they've done absolutely nothing whatsoever to refute this.

And most importantly, get rid of the embarrassing, creepy glass-enclosed Sakic locker and do away with these pompous, overblown ceremonies celebrating player milestones. I find it ridiculous that a club that does so little communicating with its fans goes out of its way to stage a goofy, asinine PR stunt every time a celebrated player is to be honored.

Unfortunately, I think all of the above will take a culture change, and that will require Pierre Lacroix and any yes-men currently working for him to be removed entirely from the organization.

3.) Tell Bettman to resign. Yeah, the guy has undertaken monumental tasks/challenges that no commissioner in professional sports has ever faced, and in some ways he's done some good (I think the Winter Classic is a stroke of genius). But right or wrong, his brand is severely tarnished and the NHL brand won't recover until he's not attached to it anymore.

Quit being so indecisive about the rules and how to enforce them. This applies to fighting and headshots, and a whole lot of other things. To that end, get serious about concussions and develop a protocol that all teams must follow in the event of a suspected concussion.

End the Phoenix/Glendale experiment. Now.

Quit letting the NHL be a "Good ol' Boys" club, since that has led to actual criminals becoming NHL owners. If a guy shows up with proper financing, it shouldn't matter if you happen to like him or not. Unfortunately, this culture won't change until Jeremy Jacobs is in the ground.

The good news is that we don't have to worry about another lockout for at least 7 more years, maybe even 10.

shadow1 02-06-2013 02:06 PM

They're a small market team who, for one reason or the other, doesn't win.

It'll never be like it was before. Sakic, Forsberg, Roy. Colorado is still adjusting to life without these superstar players all these years later.

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 02:33 PM

Quote:

trying to do this the Avs way has tended to backfire recently though.
Giguere was horrible in his tenure and they refuse to really go outside of the organization to find guys who can help the FO. instead of completely revamping the franchise from top to bottom they contine to try and change the man in the suit and say it's different.
True and as long as Pierre Lacroix is in anyway associated with the AVs its not likely to change unfortunately.:shakehead

So looking to the future Stan Kroenke has to sell his majority ownership in the AVs/Nuggets because of the St Louis Rams by 12/2014. So does sell off everything but say 49% making it unlikely for the new majority owner to replace PL & the rest of the FO? Or does he sell off Kroenke Sports altogether?

Bubba Thudd 02-06-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avalanchuck (Post 59171329)
True and as long as Pierre Lacroix is in anyway associated with the AVs its not likely to change unfortunately.:shakehead

So looking to the future Stan Kroenke has to sell his majority ownership in the AVs/Nuggets because of the St Louis Rams by 12/2014. So does sell off everything but say 49% making it unlikely for the new majority owner to replace PL & the rest of the FO? Or does he sell off Kroenke Sports altogether?

Isn't Stan just selling it to Josh?

Landeslog 02-06-2013 02:44 PM

Salary cap

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd (Post 59171467)
Isn't Stan just selling it to Josh?

In regards to the St Louis Rams ownership...

Quote:

But first he had to deal with NFL rules against ownership of major league franchises in other pro football cities. He owns the NBA's Denver Nuggets and NHL's Colorado Avalanche.

Kroenke agreed to turn over operational and financial control of those teams to 30-year-old son, Josh, by the end of the year. He must give up his majority stake in the teams by December 2014.
ESPN

I suppose he could just turn it over to Josh... wikipedia still lists Stan as the chairman of KSE for what its worth.

CalderKing21 02-06-2013 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avalanchuck (Post 59171329)
True and as long as Pierre Lacroix is in anyway associated with the AVs its not likely to change unfortunately.:shakehead

So looking to the future Stan Kroenke has to sell his majority ownership in the AVs/Nuggets because of the St Louis Rams by 12/2014. So does sell off everything but say 49% making it unlikely for the new majority owner to replace PL & the rest of the FO? Or does he sell off Kroenke Sports altogether?

he's just turning it over to his son. that's why you see Josh commenting on the Avs so much.

Bubba Thudd 02-06-2013 03:06 PM

Lacroix pretty much has a lifetime appointment as president.

Only one way to get him out of office...

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalderKing21 (Post 59172683)
he's just turning it over to his son. that's why you see Josh commenting on the Avs so much.

The NFL has rules against ownership of teams outside your NFL city... as I read it Josh is in charge until the sale... unless he sells his majority to Josh?

expatriated_texan 02-06-2013 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd (Post 59173009)
Lacroix pretty much has a lifetime appointment as president.

Only one way to get him out of office...

Yeah...you wanna give him an offer he can't refuse Bubba? :naughty:

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd (Post 59173009)
Lacroix pretty much has a lifetime appointment as president.

Only one way to get him out of office...

That's why I'm hoping Kroenke HAS to sell... because if its just turned over/given/sold to Josh we're stuck with PL for life... how old is Eric? :cry:

Bubba Thudd 02-06-2013 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expatriated_texan (Post 59173237)
Yeah...you wanna give him an offer he can't refuse Bubba? :naughty:

I've got people on the inside, working on it even as we speak.








(my wife works at WalMart)

CalderKing21 02-06-2013 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avalanchuck (Post 59173099)
The NFL has rules against ownership of teams outside your NFL city... as I read it Josh is in charge until the sale... unless he sells his majority to Josh?

he's just transfering ownership to Josh. basically the same thing as a sell. similar to Jerry Buss ceding ownership to his son Jim. though Buss i think still owns his shares of the Lakers but let's Jim run the day to day operations.
Stan has no interest in selling the Nuggs or Avs. they make him too much money.

Kloparren 02-06-2013 03:26 PM

Our average finish in the Western conference over the past 3 seasons has been 11th yet we still have the same coach.

Average finish is 12th place over the past 4 seasons. Will have made the playoffs once in 5 seasons at the end of this one. The rest of the NHL might not see the behind the scenes BS with our mgmt but they see those crappy results. No one is scared of the Avs like before.

Appleanche 02-06-2013 03:52 PM

This was a post in the ROR thread.. pretty much deserves to be reposted here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzai12 (Post 59143551)
hahahah I'll ride this train as a former ticketholder who's spent over $100K of my money on this team.

1) Not a first class organization. At all.

2) A first class organization produces a good product ON the ice and OFF the ice. Hence why the NFL is brainstorming any way that the fan can get as much of an experience at the game as on a couch.

3) Pepsi Center's outdated. Needs upgrade.

4) Putting new HD screens in the top corners of the arena where no one looks is not an upgrade.

5) # of service attendants at the game has drastically reduced which has led to poor service quality....very poor. Some games I had to wait 45 mins or whole periods for food. (sounds minor and ticky tacky, but when I pay $100+ a game, I expect service damnit...not to sit and wait 20 mins for popcorn)

6) Avs have no marketing

7) Avs have no communication to fans via media outlets

8) If Avs even came out and explained strategy, they'd probably prevent further distaste from fans out there. All we are hearing is O'Reilly's side of frustration, which slants judgement towards ROR.

9) Despite my optimism, Sakic is just as quiet of a leader in the front office as he was as a player. I had hoped he would have opened up a bit. Mice fart louder than Joe Sakic. It makes me doubt he is fit for the role and will just end up another inbred former Av failure. I get that media isn't his "job" or "focus", but compare Sakic to John Elway. It's not Elway's job either.

10) I haven't seen a single piece of advertising, programming, statement, or any type of media release from the Colorado Avalanche with any regard as to an apology about the lockout, a message asking for fans to come back to the game, or any reconciliation act whatsoever. The only marketing plug I have seen is - Hockey Is Back.....Which without any sincerity means "Hockey is back - time for you to get your a$$ back down to the arena and give us money again".

<steps off the soapbox.>

Living outside of Denver it's tough for me to gauge how bad some of the marketing and stuff is, but the lack of any kind of lockout post apology, deals, etc was pretty embarrassing.

After the lockout you had teams doing PR and going out of their way to one up each other with deals, offers, etc.. a lot of teams offering 50% off at their store, reduced season ticket prices, sometimes all 3, the Avalanche did basically nothing from what I saw, and if they did they kept it really hush hush.

The management sort of had it easy from day one... look at a lot of the other teams that have moved or worse were expansion teams. They came and immediately won a cup that year, won it a few years later, and continued to be a top contender/favorite until probably 05. So the product sort of sold itself, we have not only one of the best teams in the NHL but probably the most exciting.

When you're rebuilding and go from that to being a bottom team and now at best a bubble team it takes more marketing, identity, and fan involvement to sell out and the Avs haven't done that, and it shows.. the Avs are the 4th worst in attendance percentage this season and were 6th worst last year..

Last year the Avs capacity % was below Florida, Tampa, Nashville, New Jersey, and Anaheim. In total attendance we were still behind a lot of those teams and below Carolina as well.. it's mind boggling for a team with the longest sellout streak in NHL history.

I agree with other posts in this thread, fire the marketing team and hire it from the ground up with Denver based guys, not some guy from Quebec who has about as much connection to Denver as the Devils do.

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 04:20 PM

Thanks I was thinking about reposting that here...

Drij 02-06-2013 04:21 PM

eh are they not updating the Pepsi center right now? New seats right now and new HD scoreboard next season?

ABasin 02-06-2013 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avalanchuck (Post 59166209)
2) make suggestions on what other NHL clubs do that the Avs should emulate, and

Hire the best possible coaches/GMs, and stop the 'in-house' nepotism.

bohlmeister 02-06-2013 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 59177291)
Hire the best possible coaches/GMs, and stop the 'in-house' nepotism.

Yup. This needs to be done.

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 59177291)
Hire the best possible coaches/GMs, and stop the 'in-house' nepotism.

But Sacco was 3rd in voting for the Jack Adams trophy in 2010!?! :sarcasm::sarcasm:

avalanchuck 02-06-2013 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow1 (Post 59170035)
They're a small market team who, for one reason or the other, doesn't win.

It'll never be like it was before. Sakic, Forsberg, Roy. Colorado is still adjusting to life without these superstar players all these years later.

They certainly seem to be acting small market but with 2.5M people in the Greater Denver Metro area (just ahead of Pittsburgh w/ 2.3M) they should be able to fill the CAN but like they say if you build it they will come. Its not like the Rockies that folks will just show up to the ballpark because its a nice sunny day so you might as well catch a game. Back in the day they'd call me up and ask if I wanted Nuggets tix when I had season tix for the AVs... now the roll is reversed. The NBA and the NHL have gone through lockouts and gotten concessions from players. Time to reinvest the new money these teams are making into the product (players, coaches, etc.) on the ice. If PL & co. can't do it time to change philosophy & staff. :rant:

thedoctor 02-06-2013 05:30 PM

If the Avs started winning cups again suddenly, they'd be a first class organization and FA destination in no time.

Watch what happens to Detroit when they stop winning. Look at how Chicago is a destination after literally decades of being a terrible organization. It's just winning.

We can debate why they aren't winning, but little **** like whether or not they gave Bruno a good-bye call or whatever is not what is in the minds of UFAs or O'Reilly.


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