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-   -   Do we have the best 1-2 defence combo (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1345515)

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 11:59 AM

Do we have the best 1-2 defence combo
 
Are Markov and Subban the best 1-2 D combination in the league? I think the only other combinations of top two blue liners that are comparable are Pietrangelo/Shattenkirk and Keith/Seabrook. The Rangers have a strong top 3 with Girardi/Staal/McDonagh but none of them are true #1s and Chara/Seidenberg are good but imo Seidenberg is more of a #3.

I like the Pietrangelo/Shattenkirk pairing the most but Markov/Subban are definitely debatable as the top 1-2 combination in the league.

Habsawce 02-09-2013 12:04 PM

Letang-Orpik is pretty good
Doughty-Mitchell
Byfuglien-Enstrom is real good
Weber-Josi is good
Karlsson-Methot
Boyle-Vlasic
Yandle-OEL

There's lots of good ones, and Markov and Subban don't even play together besides the PP.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59346849)
Letang-Orpik is pretty good
Doughty-Mitchell
Byfuglien-Enstrom is real good
Weber-Josi is good
Karlsson-Methot
Boyle-Vlasic
Yandle-OEL

There's lots of good ones, and Markov and Subban don't even play together besides the PP.

Orpik, Josi, Mitchell, Methot and Vlasic are all well below Markov and Subban. I forgot about the Byfuglien/Enstrom combination as that would also be a legitimate contender. The OEL/Yandle combo is also interesting but I think Yandle is grossly overated as he is as soft as a wet tissue. If you change Mitchell for Voynov then that would be more interesting from L.A.'s perspective. I also left out Green/Carlson as they have the potential to enter into this debate.

As for them not playing together.......that is irrelevant as I am not talking about pairings which is why I referred to it as a 1-2 combination.

Alexdaman 02-09-2013 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59346849)
Letang-Orpik is pretty good
Doughty-Mitchell
Byfuglien-Enstrom is real good
Weber-Josi is good
Karlsson-Methot
Boyle-Vlasic
Yandle-OEL

There's lots of good ones, and Markov and Subban don't even play together besides the PP.

They actually do.

Nicko999 02-09-2013 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59346849)
Letang-Orpik is pretty good
Doughty-Mitchell
Byfuglien-Enstrom is real good
Weber-Josi is good
Karlsson-Methot
Boyle-Vlasic
Yandle-OEL

There's lots of good ones, and Markov and Subban don't even play together besides the PP.

Orpik a is a defensive D so he's not a #2.
Same thing with Mitchell
Buff and Enstrom are just as good as Markov-Subban offensively, however we all know how much Big Buff cares about D.
Josi is not a #2 D.
Methot: see Orpik
Subban is better than Vlasic
Yandle and OEL are very good but Markov is still better than them which gives us the advantage.

So yes we do have the best D combination possibly tied with St. Louis.

JGRB 02-09-2013 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicko999 (Post 59350621)
Orpik a is a defensive D so he's not a #2.
Same thing with Mitchell
Buff and Enstrom are just as good as Markov-Subban offensively, however we all know how much Big Buff cares about D.
Josi is not a #2 D.
Methot: see Orpik
Subban is better than Vlasic
Yandle and OEL are very good but Markov is still better than them which gives us the advantage.

So yes we do have the best D combination possibly tied with St. Louis.

I'd agree with this.

St.Louis might have the edge, but it depends how much you value experience. Pietrangelo to me is the best defenseman of the 4, most well rounded. IMO he's the best defenseman in the NHL.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicko999 (Post 59350621)
Orpik a is a defensive D so he's not a #2.
Same thing with Mitchell
Buff and Enstrom are just as good as Markov-Subban offensively, however we all know how much Big Buff cares about D.
Josi is not a #2 D.
Methot: see Orpik
Subban is better than Vlasic
Yandle and OEL are very good but Markov is still better than them which gives us the advantage.

So yes we do have the best D combination possibly tied with St. Louis.

Josi, Methot, Orpik and Mitchell have absolutely no place in this discussion.

disturbedraven 02-09-2013 01:03 PM

Not the best, but I would say that we have one of the better ones.

Habsawce 02-09-2013 01:03 PM

There's being a homer and then being crazy. You guys are flirting with the latter.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGRB (Post 59351085)
I'd agree with this.

St.Louis might have the edge, but it depends how much you value experience. Pietrangelo to me is the best defenseman of the 4, most well rounded. IMO he's the best defenseman in the NHL.

You might be right on Pietrangelo, he was my pick for the Norris at the start of the season.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59351201)
There's being a homer and then being crazy. You guys are flirting with the latter.

Then try and make a case for the combinations that you think are better. We have two legitimate #1 d-men.

Habsawce 02-09-2013 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet (Post 59351425)
Then try and make a case for the combinations that you think are better. We have two legitimate #1 d-men.

But they aren't partners. Subban is playing with Bouillon and Markov is playing with Emelin.

If you want to make a case for them together you need to say "We have the best PP defensive partners"

Shabutie 02-09-2013 01:11 PM

Keith and Seabrook don't get any love?

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59351527)
But they aren't partners. Subban is playing with Bouillon and Markov is playing with Emelin.

If you want to make a case for them together you need to say "We have the best PP defensive partners"

Apparently reading comprehension seems to be an issue here. I have clearly stated that I am not talking about pairings. It is very simple, take a teams two best d-men and compare them to Montreal's two best d-men.

JGRB 02-09-2013 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 59351201)
There's being a homer and then being crazy. You guys are flirting with the latter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet (Post 59351425)
Then try and make a case for the combinations that you think are better. We have two legitimate #1 d-men.

EP is right.

St.Louis and maybe Chicago is the only one that has a better 1-2 punch, mostly because Pietrangelo is probably the best all-situation defenseman in the NHL. I'd take both Markov and Subban over Shattenkirk in an all-situation role. Obviously Shattenkirk has the youth factor if your thinking long-term over a guy like Markov.

Markov is one of if not the best PP defenseman in the NHL. That's indisputable. He's also a pretty good defender in all situations. Subban on the other hand to me is one of the best ES/PK defenseman in the league. He can defend several different styles because he has the foot speed to match up with fast skilled forwards and he has the physicality to handle the Lucic's of the league.

The only "downside" to our 1-2 is Markov's age/injury history. If you look at simply as to who brings what to the table today... It's easily one of the best in the league.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabutie (Post 59351775)
Keith and Seabrook don't get any love?

I mentioned them as a serious contender in this conversation. I think Seabrook's limited offence might be an issue as well as Keith's declining offensive numbers but they are a very good 1-2 combination.

Alexdaman 02-09-2013 02:22 PM

Considering Markov's comeback and the fact that PK could very well have a 1pts average a game year I may say that Markov and PK is the best D pairing in the league on the PP, only the future will tell.

Great One 02-09-2013 02:59 PM

They're up there for sure. I'd put Edler and Hamhuis ahead of them as well though.

Habaddict 02-09-2013 03:09 PM

Subban has the tools to reach those heights this year. I can't see him
at that level right now. I'm also one of those people that think Markov is
still missing some of his timing and or reactions. Both these guys could be
better in 10 or 15 games.

And if that happens then they may be the best tandem. It does't matter
how much they play together, as long as the option exists.

There is no obvious number one pairing this year. In the past there was:
Pronger/Niedermeyer, Lidstrom/Rafalski, Weber/Suter, and such. I can't see
anything on that scale this year.

Estimated_Prophet 02-09-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great One (Post 59363507)
They're up there for sure. I'd put Edler and Hamhuis ahead of them as well though.

Definitely prefer Subban and Markov. Hamhuis is the weakest of the four and Markov is the best of the four. Edler is prone to some serious braincramps and struugles with chronic back problems that really limit his effectiveness.

Nicko999 02-09-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabutie (Post 59351775)
Keith and Seabrook don't get any love?

Keith is one of the most overrated players.

Since his big Norris year (69 pts), his second best season is 45 pts (and he played the full 82 games).

Markov is on a different level and he's always good for AT LEAST 55 pts (over an 82 games season) if healthy.

+Markov is not lucky enough to play with Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp and has to generate more offense on his own as opposed to Keith.

AllanMTL46 02-09-2013 04:22 PM

Maybe not the best, but up there for sure.

Great One 02-09-2013 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet (Post 59367937)
Definitely prefer Subban and Markov. Hamhuis is the weakest of the four and Markov is the best of the four. Edler is prone to some serious braincramps and struugles with chronic back problems that really limit his effectiveness.

I don't agree with this at all. In fact if you asked most Canucks fans they'll tell you that Hamuis is actually a better overall dman right now than Edler. I will give Markov the edge over the two but it's not by that great of a margin. If we're talking about right now I would take both Edler and Hamuis over Subban. Still too early to tell who will be better between Subban and Edler in the future though and you got to take into account that Subban is 3 years younger than Edler, but the thread never asked who would be better in the future so right now I would take Vancouver's pair.

Maplelaughs97 02-09-2013 04:28 PM

It is indeed a nice top 2 d "pair" but i find it humourous and somewhat ironic that you are discounting the overall effectiveness of selective pairs due to injury concerns/history while largely ignoring Markov's obvious limitations as one of/if not the most injury prone d man in the entire league. Leafs fan, not hating.....just saying. Hope we have a well played competitive game tonight. Looking forward to my first live look at Chucky....

rockjngo 02-09-2013 04:30 PM

I would take Keith and Seabrook over Markov and Subban anyday. Markov is slower this year than I've ever seen, he's 34 and aside from the PP, he isn't that good on defense. Subban is strong and dynamic, he's better than Seabrook and dare I say Keith, but Keith and Seabrook are big time performers.


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