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-   -   News Article: Less padding = more production (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1346719)

Scurr 02-10-2013 03:08 PM

Less padding = more production
 
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/shar...0057--nhl.html

Reducing the size of goaltending equipment is imperative to a better on ice product. Decreasing the size of goalies will increase the scoring area and make teams defend more of the ice. That will allow more room for skilled players to work. More goals, more comebacks, much more exciting hockey.

I'd start with the pad length and keep going until save percentages fall in line with historic averages.

Wizeman* 02-10-2013 03:09 PM

Ive been saying this for YEARS. Its so ridiculous at this point you can barely see the goalie SWIMMING inside a space suit.

sunnyvale420 02-10-2013 03:13 PM

Sure, right after players switch back to wooden sticks

luongo321 02-10-2013 03:15 PM

The biggest problem with the NHL is incompetent, inconsistent and/or biased officiating. Penalties in the regular should be penalties in the postseason. A team should not be rewarded in later rounds for instances that they would normally be penalized. It sets it up for other teams to be confused on what is a penalty and what is not a penalty. Players can't play a consistent game because they don't know what will get them into trouble and what won't. Officiating is a huge concern in this league, but it always seems to be ignored. If you want goal production, these idiots need to make calls consistently no matter what the situation. So sick of this clutch and grab garbage that seemed to be allowed halfway through last season. The reason it pisses me off is that it takes a lot of planning to create a team. By the refs being able to change how they call games out of nowhere, a strongly put together team may now be at a disadvantage. It takes away all of the long-term hardwork that a GM is doing when they decide to switch the rules halfway through last season.

Scurr 02-10-2013 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 (Post 59437333)
Sure, right after players switch back to wooden sticks

There are 5 guys on the ice at any time wearing way less gear that are willing to get in front of shots off those sticks. Why do goalies get to be wimps?

How the game is called is another issue that should be addressed but it's also much more complicated. This is a no brainer.

LadyJet26 02-10-2013 03:36 PM

Players wear rock hard equipment and that's what causes injuries.

Goalies face 100 + MPH slapshots on a consistent basis. They should wear equipment that protects them. Players wear equipment that hurts other players more then it protects the player wearing it.

Wizeman* 02-10-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg (Post 59438385)
Players wear rock hard equipment and that's what causes injuries.

Goalies face 100 + MPH slapshots on a consistent basis. They should wear equipment that protects them. Players wear equipment that hurts other players more then it protects the player wearing it.

As they have been doing so for well over 50 years. The average speed of shots are not really any higher than they were 30 years ago .

The equipment is supposed to defend the GOALIE .........not the goal. All the players are getting bigger, including the goalies, but the goalies literally look lost inside SPACE SUITS they are cheating so badly.

The glove is a now a fishing net. the blocker is now a small kitchen table. The pads are perfectly square to block PUCKS along the ice in the butterfly.

The only thing that has not changed is the goalies stick.

If you look at pictures of Kenny Dryden, who was 6ft 4 , and compare it to Hendrik Lunkqvist, it becomes a comedy.

The game is better off when goalies actually have to make saves rather than just stand there and let it trampoline off them.

Royal Canuck 02-10-2013 04:00 PM

Tell players to go back to straight curved, wooden sticks.

Then we'll move back to these for goalies.

http://hockeygoalies.org/trivia/pict...ar12week03.jpg

Fat Tony 02-10-2013 04:13 PM

Equipment and tactics evolve hand-in-hand. I doubt there will be any drastic changes.

Hank4Hart 02-10-2013 04:14 PM

Ugh. Not this again.

To all you people complaining about size of goalie gear. Come to my place borrow my set, go in net at UBC for one game, and then talk :shakehead

First of all. Its not all about the speed of the shot, its the speed of the shot + the release. While the speed of the shot hasn't gotten faster, the release of the shot has, exponentially. So at the end of the day the amount of time it takes for a puck to reach the goalie from when the shooter winds up has been dramatically reduced.

Secondly, the size of gloves and blocker haven't changed one bit since the day of the 80s.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps965b62f2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps2589fa6a.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps11e6ad07.jpg

Thirdly, the length of the leg pads have gone up because the goalies themselves have gotten taller and bulkier. The pads are still sized by the goalie's ankle to knee measurement, hasn't changed in decades

The size of goalie equipment has already been reduced once post lockout. Giguere and Snow used to have those monster sized pillows. But guess what, with the size goalie gear getting decreased across the board, the save percentage in the league has actually gone UP! Whatever the goalie benefits from his large sized gear, he ends up losing out on mobility. Look at goalies like Tim Thomas and Miikka Kiprusoff, they had some of the smallest gear in the league and they are some of the best, on the other side of the spectrum you have Jonas Gustavsson and Anders Nilsson, the latter you probably have never even heard of!

The reason the scoring has gone down and save percentage has to do with 2 major reasons.
1. goalies technique getting way better, look at the techniques from the old days, goals were going in from the red line unscreened.
2. teams are clamping up defensively, look at the Rangers sending out their entire team to block shots. Hell, they even have extra padding in their gloves last season and this year so they don't hurt their fingers. Maybe they should go back to the old crappy cooper padding as well???

I am not saying goalie equipment has nothign to do with it. But it's role in the reduced scoring is wayyyyy down the list compared to the 2 reasons I just stated

RandV 02-10-2013 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank4Hart (Post 59440419)
Ugh. Not this again.

To all you people complaining about size of goalie gear. Come to my place borrow my set, go in net at UBC for one game, and then talk :shakehead

At the very least you should be comforted by the fact that as much as these delusional people like to complain about goaltending equipment nothing will ever come of it.

How the hell would you get save percentages back down to 'historic averages' anyways... I guess maybe make the goalies wear shock collars?

Scurr 02-10-2013 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank4Hart (Post 59440419)

You're joking right? Look at the size of the cheater on that glove... what part of the body is that protecting?

Nobody is talking about going back to old pads, we're talking about going back to goalies wearing pads for protection rather than making saves. Pads are lighter and protect better than ever, they don't need to be that big.

Boy do we have a lot of goalies around here :laugh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandV (Post 59441495)
At the very least you should be comforted by the fact that as much as these delusional people like to complain about goaltending equipment nothing will ever come of it.

How the hell would you get save percentages back down to 'historic averages' anyways... I guess maybe make the goalies wear shock collars?

What's delusional about it?

If you keep reducing the area of the net goalies cover then save percentages will keep coming down. Not a hard concept at all to grasp.

LiveeviL 02-10-2013 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizeman (Post 59438771)
As they have been doing so for well over 50 years. The average speed of shots are not really any higher than they were 30 years ago .

The equipment is supposed to defend the GOALIE .........not the goal. All the players are getting bigger, including the goalies, but the goalies literally look lost inside SPACE SUITS they are cheating so badly.

The glove is a now a fishing net. the blocker is now a small kitchen table. The pads are perfectly square to block PUCKS along the ice in the butterfly.

The only thing that has not changed is the goalies stick.

If you look at pictures of Kenny Dryden, who was 6ft 4 , and compare it to Hendrik Lunkqvist, it becomes a comedy.

The game is better off when goalies actually have to make saves rather than just stand there and let it trampoline off them.

Can you back the bolded part up? I am pretty sure that training, equipment and overall conditioning matters. It does in every other professional sport and hockey is no exception.

jigsaw99 02-10-2013 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank4Hart (Post 59440419)
Ugh. Not this again.

To all you people complaining about size of goalie gear. Come to my place borrow my set, go in net at UBC for one game, and then talk :shakehead

First of all. Its not all about the speed of the shot, its the speed of the shot + the release. While the speed of the shot hasn't gotten faster, the release of the shot has, exponentially. So at the end of the day the amount of time it takes for a puck to reach the goalie from when the shooter winds up has been dramatically reduced.

Secondly, the size of gloves and blocker haven't changed one bit since the day of the 80s.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps965b62f2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps2589fa6a.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66...ps11e6ad07.jpg

Thirdly, the length of the leg pads have gone up because the goalies themselves have gotten taller and bulkier. The pads are still sized by the goalie's ankle to knee measurement, hasn't changed in decades

The size of goalie equipment has already been reduced once post lockout. Giguere and Snow used to have those monster sized pillows. But guess what, with the size goalie gear getting decreased across the board, the save percentage in the league has actually gone UP! Whatever the goalie benefits from his large sized gear, he ends up losing out on mobility. Look at goalies like Tim Thomas and Miikka Kiprusoff, they had some of the smallest gear in the league and they are some of the best, on the other side of the spectrum you have Jonas Gustavsson and Anders Nilsson, the latter you probably have never even heard of!

The reason the scoring has gone down and save percentage has to do with 2 major reasons.
1. goalies technique getting way better, look at the techniques from the old days, goals were going in from the red line unscreened.
2. teams are clamping up defensively, look at the Rangers sending out their entire team to block shots. Hell, they even have extra padding in their gloves last season and this year so they don't hurt their fingers. Maybe they should go back to the old crappy cooper padding as well???

I am not saying goalie equipment has nothign to do with it. But it's role in the reduced scoring is wayyyyy down the list compared to the 2 reasons I just stated

umm those picture u posted just proved that there is a difference...

Dado 02-10-2013 04:52 PM

I was going to say. The newer gear in those pictures is noticeably bigger in precisely the "non-protective" ways being discussed here.

Hank4Hart 02-10-2013 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigsaw99 (Post 59442033)
umm those picture u posted just proved that there is a difference...

Sorry you are right. There is a small difference. I got caught up in arguing and was going on a rant.

But its certainly not a fishing net or small kitchen table

Hank4Hart 02-10-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dado (Post 59442603)
I was going to say. The newer gear in those pictures is noticeably bigger in precisely the "non-protective" ways being discussed here.

Care to elaborate more? It's gotten thicker padding, but the blocking surface area hasn't gotten bigger IMO

Dado 02-10-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank4Hart (Post 59442885)
Care to elaborate more? It's gotten thicker padding, but the blocking surface area hasn't gotten bigger IMO

How not? It's both wider and longer in the top down view. Further, it's highly curved, so the actual length of the blocker surface is substantially more than the older, flat version.

And the catching glove has all kinds of material extensions significantly increasing the overall surface area facing the shot, expansion which has nothing to do with actually catching the puck. I can think of 2 or 3 "saves" just over the past couple of nights that were the result of hitting exactly that extra material.

Scurr 02-10-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank4Hart (Post 59442619)
Sorry you are right. There is a small difference. I got caught up in arguing and was going on a rant.

But its certainly not a fishing net or small kitchen table

The problem isn't one piece of equipment, it's that each piece is 20%+ bigger than it should be. It adds up to a kitchen table.

Reverend Mayhem 02-10-2013 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Canuck (Post 59439585)
Tell players to go back to straight curved, wooden sticks.

Then we'll move back to these for goalies.

http://hockeygoalies.org/trivia/pict...ar12week03.jpg

This. Goalies have an adequate amount of equipment to do their job relatively uninjured. There are still occurrences where they will get hurt even with all the equipment. I have no problem with the NHL's equipment policy they currently have in place. I'm sure we've all seen that picture of Roberto pre-lockout with pads that looked like you could use as a sleeping bag.

Scurr 02-10-2013 05:13 PM

Did you guys bother to read the article? Nobody is talking about taking away protection.

LadyJet26 02-10-2013 05:16 PM

They're facing bigger guys with harder shots on a consistent basis. In the 70s there were no guys who could smash Al Irifraties (spelling it wrong. So sue me) record like Chara did. Guys are taller, have better diets, actually work out in the off season, etc. This isn't the 1970s. No wooden sticks either.

Besides, I don't want 80s style hockey. I'd rather have a 1-0 or 3-2 game with great goaltending then 11-7 games. 80s style hockey sucks and so does the dead puck era of the mid 90s to 2004-05 lockout.

The problem isn't goaltending equipment. It's players equipment that's harming their fellow players. Players don't hurt when they get hit like they did in the 70s. That's why there are cheap shots galore. Fix the equipment and you go back to the players respecting each other.

Jyrki 02-10-2013 05:26 PM

I'm not against trimming the knee rise, but IMO it's unsure if it will actually increasing scoring. Goalies with wider pads/rise will close their five-hole slower (although the gap will be somewhat smaller) and move laterally slower which leaves the gap open for longer. Guys like Thomas and Bryzgalov who favour smaller pads get beat upstairs or stick side a lot more than five-hole, while guys like Lindback and Rinne let pucks squeak through the gap often.

Hank4Hart 02-10-2013 05:27 PM

You guys are cherry-picking one small part of my argument. Sure, I can't argue the fact that goalie gear hasn't gotten 10-20% bigger since the 80s. I admit I was exaggerating that they haven't gotten bigger (the same way someone was saying they are now fish nets).

But that doesn't take away the fact that 1. goalies have gotten much better technique wise 2. teams have evolved to play an extremely defensive system. Even if you do end up reducing that goalie equipment further down, it won't have any sort of significant effect on league wide scoring. How do you explain for the fact that the last goalie gear size reduction actually resulted in a higher save percentage league wide?


If you watch the hockey games, notice how whenever a shooter has time and space, he can still cleanly beat the goalie a good percentage of the times. The problem is, that time and space is never there anymore.

Goaltending takes a ton of skill, theres a reason why in the last decade only Carey Price has been able to fast track his way into the NHL without significant years of apprenticeship. If you take an AHL or junior goalie and put him into the NHL, he'd get lit up!

The elite goalies will always be elite and have a super high save percentage. In fact, I'd guess that most of the elite are playing with goalie gear below maximum sizing allowed from my observations. The problem is that the rest of the league consists of the goalies who are not as good and teams play suffocating defence to make up for the goalie's deficiencies, making them look really good. Look at Mike Smith, Brian Elliott, Steve Mason. Smith was a no body before the Tippett effect took over. Brian Elliott was on his way out of the NHL until Hitchcock showed up, and look at Elliott's stats this year after his team's structure is starting to fall apart, they are brutal! Steve Mason stunk as soon as Hitchcock left. In fact, in the last year, Mason has increased the size of his pads and the size of his chest protector. Guess what? HE STILL SUCKS.

Yes goalie equipment sizing sky rocketed over the 90s and went back down slightly post lockout, no doubt about it. But, in terms of reasons as to why scoring has gone down, that's probably the 6th or 7th on the list. Again, I stress that save percentage has actually gone UP since the last equipment reduction

Changing goalie gear sizing will not effect scoring... We are never going back to the 80s unless
1. Goalies go back to being 5 foot 8 like John Vanbiesbrouk or Mike Richter instead of 6 foot 7 like Pekka Rinne
2. You ban the butterfly
3. Someone assassinates Hitchcock and Tippet and erase the trap.

Jose Theodore had the best season of his career, putting up .931 save percentage wearing these!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_G1sbe7DPFZ...Luongopads.jpg

Win One Before I Die 02-10-2013 05:31 PM

guys we should just force goalies to use old baseball gloves and empty beer boxes as blockers and foam street hockey pads

then we can force the players to use a ringette puck...


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