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-   -   Buyout clause loophole? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1347399)

PantherStriker 02-11-2013 11:06 AM

Buyout clause loophole?
 
Just trying to think of a way we can keep Briere, and came upon this idea (which most likely has already been discussed):

We trade Briere for say, Tomas Kaberle over the summer. Each team buys the player out, Briere by Montreal, Kaberle by Philly, allowing both players to resign with their original clubs for a cheaper price. This circumvents the rule stating a team cant sign a player already on their payroll via buyout.

Kaberle is just a random example as I'm 100% sure the Habs dont want to keep him...

Slowbro 02-11-2013 11:10 AM

why do we want kaberle? or is that irrelevant too?

Slowbro 02-11-2013 11:11 AM

and if that loophole was possible, i would lose faith in the NHL/PA as a whole.

King Forsberg 02-11-2013 11:17 AM

I would do it. I think Briere is important to this team and would like to stay here but his cap hit is not ideal.

FlyingHigh28* 02-11-2013 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PantherStriker (Post 59486673)
Just trying to think of a way we can keep Briere, and came upon this idea (which most likely has already been discussed):

We trade Briere for say, Tomas Kaberle over the summer. Each team buys the player out, Briere by Montreal, Kaberle by Philly, allowing both players to resign with their original clubs for a cheaper price. This circumvents the rule stating a team cant sign a player already on their payroll via buyout.

Kaberle is just a random example as I'm 100% sure the Habs dont want to keep him...

If we did this, I think it would be clear circumvention of the spirit of the rules.

Beyond that, Bettman would have a stroke if we did it.

RJ8812* 02-11-2013 11:35 AM

ya, that would cause a huge **** storm for sure

ORYX 02-11-2013 11:37 AM

Pretty sure this would qualify as Circumvention

Beef Invictus 02-11-2013 01:28 PM

I'd be pretty surprised if Bettman didn't nix it and take draft picks away from both teams.

FlyersFanz 02-11-2013 01:34 PM

How much could a 36 year old ask for next year? Pretty sure Briere wants to stay in Philly he has a house here and is quite settled.

12345* 02-11-2013 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PantherStriker (Post 59486673)
Just trying to think of a way we can keep Briere, and came upon this idea (which most likely has already been discussed):

We trade Briere for say, Tomas Kaberle over the summer. Each team buys the player out, Briere by Montreal, Kaberle by Philly, allowing both players to resign with their original clubs for a cheaper price. This circumvents the rule stating a team cant sign a player already on their payroll via buyout.

Kaberle is just a random example as I'm 100% sure the Habs dont want to keep him...

As much as the printed CBA matters, the league has final say on all deals. They can uphold the essence of the CBA.

achdumeingute 02-11-2013 01:44 PM

The amount of collusion this requires is rediculous.

Why the heck else would anyone want to take the risk with us...

Give it up...

JDinkalage Morgoone 02-11-2013 02:02 PM

I have a question with regards to the cap circumvention policy: how is New York trading for Tim Thomas to reach the cap floor not circumvention? It's been speculated that that is the only reason they made the move, or so I've read. They will be trying to move Visnovsky I guess. So how can acquiring a player who is not expected to play, they will not have to pay, just to use his cap hit to reach the floor not circumvention?

Flyotes 02-11-2013 02:24 PM

Just to stir up trouble: Agree with Montreal to do exactly that-- then just resign Briere to a cap friendly deal and just keep Kaberle.

Sawdalite 02-11-2013 02:56 PM

I know with the 'Clarke Rule' teams cannot reacquire a player within a year of trading him... but is that not in essence covering this as the Flyers trade him and than reacquire him through a contract signing?... Unless the rule is so specifically worded, the NHL could possibly cite that rule... and after all, that rule was inserted to preclude storing a player in order to basically keep him for the long haul.

I don't see the Flyers coming out looking good... nor not being punished... in such a devious, yet obvious, transaction.

chimrichalds18 02-11-2013 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawdalite (Post 59498601)
I know with the 'Clarke Rule' teams cannot reacquire a player within a year of trading him... but is that not in essence covering this as the Flyers trade him and than reacquire him through a contract signing?... Unless the rule is so specifically worded, the NHL could possibly cite that rule... and after all, that rule was inserted to preclude storing a player in order to basically keep him for the long haul.

Is this really a rule now or was that the rule under the old CBA? Didn't Doug Weight get traded back when the Hurricanes won and then go back to his old team?

Sawdalite 02-11-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 (Post 59501817)
Is this really a rule now or was that the rule under the old CBA? Didn't Doug Weight get traded back when the Hurricanes won and then go back to his old team?

I have never heard of it being repealed... nor can I think of any reason they would... I'd have to look into the Weight deal as I'm not offhand familiar with the details. I'd bet it didn't go against that rule, especially when we are talking about back when the 'Canes won, which was near the beginning of the last CBA, IIRC.


EDIT:

I don't see how any transactions involving Doug Weight went against the rule... Here is his transaction history:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________

Career Transactions

2008
7/02/2008 Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the New York Islanders.

2007
12/14/2007 Anaheim Ducks traded Andy McDonald to the St. Louis Blues for Doug Weight, Michal Birner and a 7th round draft selection in 2008.

2006
7/02/2006 Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the St. Louis Blues.

1/30/2006 St. Louis Blues traded Doug Weight and the rights to Erkki Rajamaki to the Carolina Hurricanes for Jesse Boulerice, Mike Zigomanis, the rights to Magnus Kahnberg, a 1 st and a 4th round selections in 2006 and a 4th round selection in 2007.

2001
7/01/2001 Edmonton Oilers traded Doug Weight and Michel Riesen to the St. Louis Blues for Marty Reasoner, Jochen Hecht and Jan Horacek.

1993
3/17/1993 Edmonton Oilers traded Esa Tikkanen to the New York Rangers for Doug Weight.

1990
6/16/1990 Drafted by the New York Rangers in the 2nd round (34th overall) in 1990.

MiamiScreamingEagles 02-11-2013 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawdalite (Post 59498601)
I know with the 'Clarke Rule' teams cannot reacquire a player within a year of trading him... but is that not in essence covering this as the Flyers trade him and than reacquire him through a contract signing?... Unless the rule is so specifically worded, the NHL could possibly cite that rule... and after all, that rule was inserted to preclude storing a player in order to basically keep him for the long haul.

I don't see the Flyers coming out looking good... nor not being punished... in such a devious, yet obvious, transaction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 (Post 59501817)
Is this really a rule now or was that the rule under the old CBA? Didn't Doug Weight get traded back when the Hurricanes won and then go back to his old team?

The Pete Peeters/Keith Acton trade to Winnipeg?

Different circumstances than what the OP is offering but there is a similarity in that the spirit of protocol was/could be fractured. The Flyers and Jets made a trade, involving Peeters/Action and others, in order to protect players in the now-abandoned waiver draft. The players were returned following the draft (Peeters/Acton back to the Flyers). The League cited a rule regarding "loaning of players" and the NHL President at the time John Ziegler said, in so many words, that just because there wasn't a rule regarding this action, the bylaw could be interpreted to punish both teams.

The trade had its genesis earlier in the summer involving Shawn Cronin.

GKJ 02-11-2013 05:35 PM

No bueno. New CBA states that you can only buy out a player if he's on your reserve list at the previous trade deadline.

PantherStriker 02-11-2013 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 59506103)
No bueno. New CBA states that you can only buy out a player if he's on your reserve list at the previous trade deadline.

Thats the answer I was looking for. I remember reading something about that, but completely forgot about it. Thanks!

Sawdalite 02-11-2013 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles (Post 59505277)
The Pete Peeters/Keith Acton trade to Winnipeg?

Different circumstances than what the OP is offering but there is a similarity in that the spirit of protocol was/could be fractured. The Flyers and Jets made a trade, involving Peeters/Action and others, in order to protect players in the now-abandoned waiver draft. The players were returned following the draft (Peeters/Acton back to the Flyers). The League cited a rule regarding "loaning of players" and the NHL President at the time John Ziegler said, in so many words, that just because there wasn't a rule regarding this action, the bylaw could be interpreted to punish both teams.

The trade had its genesis earlier in the summer involving Shawn Cronin.

I understand the circumstances were totally different... but the spirit of the trickery was very similar. I just wondered if the ruling on that could be a precedence in this proposed case.

Sawdalite 02-11-2013 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 59506103)
No bueno. New CBA states that you can only buy out a player if he's on your reserve list at the previous trade deadline.

Makes sense their being proactive on such loophole attempts.

Really, this was a means for teams to rectify mistakes and get in a better position to meet the lower Cap going forward... not a chance for an imaginative GM/Organization to play the System for a bonanza.

chimrichalds18 02-11-2013 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawdalite (Post 59504511)
I have never heard of it being repealed... nor can I think of any reason they would... I'd have to look into the Weight deal as I'm not offhand familiar with the details. I'd bet it didn't go against that rule, especially when we are talking about back when the 'Canes won, which was near the beginning of the last CBA, IIRC.

...Weight transaction history...
2006
7/02/2006 Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the St. Louis Blues.

1/30/2006 St. Louis Blues traded Doug Weight and the rights to Erkki Rajamaki to the Carolina Hurricanes for Jesse Boulerice, Mike Zigomanis, the rights to Magnus Kahnberg, a 1 st and a 4th round selections in 2006 and a 4th round selection in 2007.

This is what I was talking about. I didn't know if reacquired meant traded back, or just acquired in any way. He played for St. Louis, was traded at the deadline, then signed back on with St. Louis a month after Carolina won the Cup.

Sawdalite 02-12-2013 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 (Post 59524795)
This is what I was talking about. I didn't know if reacquired meant traded back, or just acquired in any way. He played for St. Louis, was traded at the deadline, then signed back on with St. Louis a month after Carolina won the Cup.

I got you now... I was thinking on the trade aspect... but this actually is akin to what I was questioning, so I suppose my stance does not connect the Clarke Rule in that manner.

FWIW: Off the top of my head I also recall Recchi being traded from the Pens and then resigned -- IIRC also Carolina's Cup season -- and then I believe he was traded again by the Pens at the trade deadline... I believe that next one... In the first one he netted the Pens players and then joined them as (theoretically) a better team, after he won another Cup... I also remember the talk of Forsberg coming back to the Flyers after being traded by them to Nashville, and hints of a gentleman's agreement on... but IIRC Foppa didn't feel ready at that time to return to the NHL and play up to his standards due to his skate-boot/leg problem, so we never knew if he would have come to the Flyers... but there was talk of Nashville re-signing him as well as other suitors... So, who knows what was true? haha

Thanks for pointing that out.

captainpaxil 02-12-2013 08:12 AM

i think the flyers could acquire players to buy out and collect some assets for laying out the cash.

Sawdalite 02-12-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainpaxil (Post 59547841)
i think the flyers could acquire players to buy out and collect some assets for laying out the cash.



Please see quote below. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV



Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 59506103)
No bueno. New CBA states that you can only buy out a player if he's on your reserve list at the previous trade deadline.



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