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-   -   What we need according to the numbers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1349107)

jjricco8 02-13-2013 08:50 AM

What we need according to the numbers
 
here is where we stand at this point in the season comparred to last season:
Goals Per Game: This year- 7th Last Year: 26th
Goals Against: This year- 29th Last year- 27th
Power Play: This year- 5th Last year- 8th
Penalty Kill: This year- 4th Last year- 23rd
-----------
We do not need offense. Our youg guys are coming together and there are more in the pipeline.

Our D is horrendous. We do not have a shut down D man (and a good team needs at least 2). Hamonic and AMac are -13 combined so we need to realize they are not getting it done in our own zone. We need to ride this season out and lower expectations. In the future we will be adding Nelson, Nino, Lee and Strome. I'm not sure how our D prospects are working out. We will finish in the bottom 5 again and we should package the pick to get a top 5 defensive defenseman and/or open the checkbook for a FA.

When we hit Barclays, we will be a force at which time we will also have either Nillson or Poulin in net.

DeanCrandall 02-13-2013 09:00 AM

The only number that matters. League standings 29th out of 30 teams. Lose Thursday and dead last.

And after five years of 26th, 30th, 26th, 27th, 27th place finishes most are tired of hearing about the future.

bigd 02-13-2013 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjricco8 (Post 59627981)
here is where we stand at this point in the season comparred to last season:
Goals Per Game: This year- 7th Last Year: 26th
Goals Against: This year- 29th Last year- 27th
Power Play: This year- 5th Last year- 8th
Penalty Kill: This year- 4th Last year- 23rd
-----------
We do not need offense. Our youg guys are coming together and there are more in the pipeline.

Our D is horrendous. We do not have a shut down D man (and a good team needs at least 2). Hamonic and AMac are -13 combined so we need to realize they are not getting it done in our own zone. We need to ride this season out and lower expectations. In the future we will be adding Nelson, Nino, Lee and Strome. I'm not sure how our D prospects are working out. We will finish in the bottom 5 again and we should package the pick to get a top 5 defensive defenseman and/or open the checkbook for a FA.

When we hit Barclays, we will be a force at which time we will also have either Nillson or Poulin in net.

Don't let the goaltending off the hook here. Nabby is a back up goalie at best and DP is washed up.

bruins2011 02-13-2013 10:28 AM

Just a question..would you like to see TT play this year?

And what are your thoughts for sending out unhappy NN to us for Jared Knight, a highly ranked prospect in the system.

19NYSports91 02-13-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruins2011 (Post 59631197)
Just a question..would you like to see TT play this year?

And what are your thoughts for sending out unhappy NN to us for Jared Knight, a highly ranked prospect in the system.

No to the first one.

I don't know much about Knight, but reading about him sounds like Ryan Callahan a little bit.

Mr Wentworth 02-13-2013 10:43 AM

This brings up something I've been thinking about and an item which was brought up in the last GDT.

The Isles PK (which I believe is run by Thompson) is doing quite well.
The Power Play (which I believe is run by Weight) is doing quite well.

The rest falls on Cappy's shoulders. Line changes; the lines themselves; breakout, offensive and defensive zone schemes all fall (I believe) on Cappy's shoulders.

The Isles not doing too well while playing 5 on 5, I believe, also falls on Cappy's shoulders.


So..where does this leave us?

19NYSports91 02-13-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Wentworth (Post 59631793)
This brings up something I've been thinking about and an item which was brought up in the last GDT.

The Isles PK (which I believe is run by Thompson) is doing quite well.
The Power Play (which I believe is run by Weight) is doing quite well.

The rest falls on Cappy's shoulders. Line changes; the lines themselves; breakout, offensive and defensive zone schemes all fall (I believe) on Cappy's shoulders.

The Isles not doing too well while playing 5 on 5, I believe, also falls on Cappy's shoulders.


So..where does this leave us?

I said this like 10 times already. The fact that Moulson-Tavares-Boyes were playing with Streit and Hickey is crazy.

steveat 02-13-2013 11:01 AM

Cappy is just trying everyone and it seems like no formula is used. This doesn't offer up the case of a good coach...what it tells me is that Cappy doesn't know what he's doing and throwing everyone in one pot to see who comes out on top with the most chemistry. I guess at best he is eliminating what doesn't work.

Dan-o16 02-13-2013 11:28 AM

There's only one number that we need to be concerned about.

Goals against 3rd Period: 22, averaging 1.83 per GAME. Worst in the league.

That's the symptom. The cause?

TOI/G
MacDonald: 26:08
Streit: 25:32
Hamonic: 23:59
Tavares: 22:05 (really high for a forward)
Nielsen: 19:09 (way too high for him
Grabner: 18:21 (really way too high for him)

The problem is depth of talent. These guys are *beat* at the end of games.

Cheers,

Dan-o

scott99 02-13-2013 12:38 PM

Defense wins championships, period. It's the same in any sport. Put the best goalie in front of a crappy defense and they will struggle (not as badly as Nabby and DP have though). Defense improves, and goaltending will improve. So it's our defense and 5 on 5 play that is killing us. I'm surprised Hamonic hasn't progressed, I figured this would be the year where he becomes one of the best d-men in hockey. Even he was saying he felt this would be his breakout year. He's been a slight disappointment.

Brunomics 02-13-2013 12:57 PM

What we need is a miracle(And players that could actually play and produce 5 on 5)

bigd 02-13-2013 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott99 (Post 59637465)
Defense wins championships, period. It's the same in any sport. Put the best goalie in front of a crappy defense and they will struggle (not as badly as Nabby and DP have though). Defense improves, and goaltending will improve. So it's our defense and 5 on 5 play that is killing us. I'm surprised Hamonic hasn't progressed, I figured this would be the year where he becomes one of the best d-men in hockey. Even he was saying he felt this would be his breakout year. He's been a slight disappointment.

I disagree. Goaltending is the biggest part of defense. Great goaltending will make your defense better. If your a player and you see your goalie battling to making miraculous saves to keep you in the game you're going to try harder to make life easier on him. If your goalie is letting up soft goals it's very deflating for a defense. Neither one of our goalies are #1 NHL goalies. Nabbys a back up and DP is washed up. You can have a team full of talent but if your goalie can't make the stops you won't win.

scott99 02-13-2013 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd (Post 59639283)
I disagree. Goaltending is the biggest part of defense. Great goaltending will make your defense better. If your a player and you see your goalie battling to making miraculous saves to keep you in the game you're going to try harder to make life easier on him. If your goalie is letting up soft goals it's very deflating for a defense. Neither one of our goalies are #1 NHL goalies. Nabbys a back up and DP is washed up. You can have a team full of talent but if your goalie can't make the stops you won't win.

bigd, I respectfully disagree. A great defense, in my opinion, can mask mediocre goaltending. If your defense is limiting teams to 25 or less shots a game, typically you win. Bad example, because Martin Brodeur is one of the greatest goalies of all time, but I bet if I did the research, he probably is high up on the list for goalies, as far as lowest shots per game faced. I bet if you compared the average amount of shots faced by Patrick Roy, Marty saw way less shots per game. Not to take anything away from Marty, one of the all time greats, but just trying to make a point.

Great goaltending, no matter what can not mask terrible defense, Put Marty Brodeur or Patrick Roy in front of the 1981-82 Devils defense, and Gretzky is still calling the Devils a Mickey Mouse organization.

Unfortunately, we have terrible defense and terrible goaltending.

bigd 02-13-2013 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott99 (Post 59640867)
bigd, I respectfully disagree. A great defense, in my opinion, can mask mediocre goaltending. If your defense is limiting teams to 25 or less shots a game, typically you win. Bad example, because Martin Brodeur is one of the greatest goalies of all time, but I bet if I did the research, he probably is high up on the list for goalies, as far as lowest shots per game faced. I bet if you compared the average amount of shots faced by Patrick Roy, Marty saw way less shots per game. Not to take anything away from Marty, one of the all time greats, but just trying to make a point.

Great goaltending, no matter what can not mask terrible defense, Put Marty Brodeur or Patrick Roy in front of the 1981-82 Devils defense, and Gretzky is still calling the Devils a Mickey Mouse organization.

Unfortunately, we have terrible defense and terrible goaltending.

Well I guess we agree to disagree. What was the reason we lost to the Sabres, bad defense or bad goaltending? 13 shots, Nabby let in 3 and they weren't all quality goals. We let up 25 against Carolina, DP let up 5 and they were not all quality goals.

jjricco8 02-13-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd (Post 59639283)
I disagree. Goaltending is the biggest part of defense. Great goaltending will make your defense better. If your a player and you see your goalie battling to making miraculous saves to keep you in the game you're going to try harder to make life easier on him. If your goalie is letting up soft goals it's very deflating for a defense. Neither one of our goalies are #1 NHL goalies. Nabbys a back up and DP is washed up. You can have a team full of talent but if your goalie can't make the stops you won't win.

Disagree. D makes the difference. A lot of the "greatest" goalies had great D's.

I'm starting a list. Here are a few goalies that I feel are overated becuse of a good defense/team in front of them:

1. "Marty"
2. Osgood
3. Niemi
4. Billy Smith :amazed:
5. Cam Ward

Your thoughts?

scott99 02-13-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd (Post 59641127)
Well I guess we agree to disagree. What was the reason we lost to the Sabres, bad defense or bad goaltending? 13 shots, Nabby let in 3 and they weren't all quality goals. We let up 25 against Carolina, DP let up 5 and they were not all quality goals.

Bad Goaltending+Bad Defense+Unlucky bounces=2013 Islanders. We've lost 5 in a row, but dominated 3 of those games. IF they lose the next 2, which I expect they will, I would be shocked if Capuano survives as coach. Can't have a 7 game losing streak (15% of the season), and not make changes (coaches, trades, call ups, etc). Go 4-9-1, and we'd already be at the 30% mark of the season, forget about it, season is over. I know it sounds crazy, but the Isles have to win the next 2 games. I will be at the Devils game Saturday, hopefully it will be after a win against the Rangers Thursday.

bluechipbonzo 02-13-2013 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 (Post 59631933)
I said this like 10 times already. The fact that Moulson-Tavares-Boyes were playing with Streit and Hickey is crazy.

Actually it makes sense to have your best line on here, assuming offensive zone starts, and the ability of the Tavares line to dominate on the puck and keep it deep as they get their scoring chances. Streit and Hickey move the puck well...makes sense to me.

Dan-o16 02-13-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjricco8 (Post 59641643)
Disagree. D makes the difference. A lot of the "greatest" goalies had great D's.

I'm starting a list. Here are a few goalies that I feel are overated becuse of a good defense/team in front of them:

1. "Marty"
2. Osgood
3. Niemi
4. Billy Smith :amazed:
5. Cam Ward

Your thoughts?

Yeah, sort of. Marty doesn't really count because pre-trapezoid, he was also part of the defense.

A challenge for the 'it's the goaltending' folks: why does the goaltending always get worse in the third period?

Cheers,

Dan-o

bigd 02-13-2013 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjricco8 (Post 59641643)
Disagree. D makes the difference. A lot of the "greatest" goalies had great D's.

I'm starting a list. Here are a few goalies that I feel are overated becuse of a good defense/team in front of them:

1. "Marty"
2. Osgood
3. Niemi
4. Billy Smith :amazed:
5. Cam Ward

Your thoughts?

Marty is NOT overated. Have you watched him lately?

13th Floor 02-13-2013 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjricco8 (Post 59641643)
Disagree. D makes the difference. A lot of the "greatest" goalies had great D's.

I'm starting a list. Here are a few goalies that I feel are overated becuse of a good defense/team in front of them:

1. "Marty"
2. Osgood
3. Niemi
4. Billy Smith :amazed:
5. Cam Ward

Your thoughts?

Sorry, a top tier goaltender for 20+ years is not overrated. If anything, the data points to the exact opposite. He has been the only player or coach constant on the team for 20 years and they have always been good.

bigd 02-13-2013 02:23 PM

I'm not saying our defense is without needs. Mark Streit is a disaster in the defensive zone and Amac is a good D-man but not a top shut down guy. Hamonic is not quit there yet either but he still has his best years ahead of him. Strait is very good but he's a solid third pairing Dman on most teams. Hickey, i'm not quite sure about yet. He looks good at times and other times he just looks over matched. Finley and Carkner are better in the stands than on the ice. Vis looks real good but he's obviously not part of the future.

bigd 02-13-2013 02:55 PM

Quick was tremendous last season and through the playoffs. That's the #1 reason they won the Stanley Cup. This year they have, pretty much, the same lineup AND THE SAME GREAT D, but Quick can't stop a beach ball.

Poliz24 02-13-2013 04:06 PM

The back and forth conversation of goalie or D-men is interesting. With this all being said, which position do you feel is more important for us to focus on in this years draft? Since we are still in a rebuild we will prob have a high pick. But what position is more important to focus on this year?

OlTimeHockey 02-13-2013 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd (Post 59639283)
I disagree. Goaltending is the biggest part of defense. Great goaltending will make your defense better. If your a player and you see your goalie battling to making miraculous saves to keep you in the game you're going to try harder to make life easier on him. If your goalie is letting up soft goals it's very deflating for a defense. Neither one of our goalies are #1 NHL goalies. Nabbys a back up and DP is washed up. You can have a team full of talent but if your goalie can't make the stops you won't win.

This is like debating the heart over the lungs.

The heart needs the lungs and vice versa.

Your best defense STARTS with the wingers. You have to keep puck control in the offensive zone. The center is the fall back, normally, who has to be ready to join the fray on an opposing rush.

Your defensemen have to neutralize the oncoming rusher and prevent any opportunities for a pass. By "defensemen" I mean everyone who is on the defense on an opposing rush.

When all five {or four} {or three} are there in the defensive zone, they have to stop any passes and block any chance at a shot on net. They have to REMOVE any opponent in or around the crease.

THEN.....your goalie is the last line of defense. Period.

If you think of a group out on the ice as an organism, you get it. The lungs need the brain and heart and stomach and glands and if one falters, the strength of the whole is compromised. A penalty is the removal of one of the fundamental structures in the organism and makes it a compromised structure.

So, yeah, the goalie is important. But so is the guy on LW. So is the center, and so on.


Which is why we suck. There is always one weakness on the ice minimum. Nino was AWFUL. Sim was awful. Finley or Hickey hurt. Carkner could have been better out there. Moulson only recently has shown an ability to help in the back end.


My point is you can't say just a strong goalie is what matters when Patrick Roy blew up after a period of time when he was left to bear the brunt of the defense. {though IMHO, he was a bit overboard and petulant}

OlTimeHockey 02-13-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poliz24 (Post 59649475)
The back and forth conversation of goalie or D-men is interesting. With this all being said, which position do you feel is more important for us to focus on in this years draft? Since we are still in a rebuild we will prob have a high pick. But what position is more important to focus on this year?

A strong kid who can hit, skate and play well and who has the maturity to grow as a player.

Whoever is the best talent and fills the above, in other words. EVEN IF HE PLAYS IN NET.:amazed:


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