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-   -   Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1352103)

Puckgenius* 02-16-2013 04:43 PM

Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time?
 
Modano? Richter? Weight? Roenick? Thachuck? Amonte? Modano is forsure in the top 5, probably top 2.

Mike Farkas 02-16-2013 04:52 PM

I think you missed the top two in all your guesses. Chelios and Brimsek start the list...

EDIT: is there a claim that the OP missed the entire top 5 in all the guesses? Howe, Leetch, Lafontaine? Langway too if he counts for the U.S.

Crease 02-16-2013 05:00 PM

If born in the USA is required, Brett Hull gets knocked out of my top 5. That said:

Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Howe
Langway

mrhockey193195 02-16-2013 05:05 PM

Chelios, Brimsek, Leetch, Modano, Howe/Lafontaine

mrhockey193195 02-16-2013 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crease (Post 59842237)
If born in the USA is required, Brett Hull gets knocked out of my top 5. That said:

Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Howe
Langway

Technically, Langway was born in Taiwan, no?

Crease 02-16-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 (Post 59842513)
Technically, Langway was born in Taiwan, no?

Well then, Langway can tip his cap on the fact that he's the greatest hockey player from the Republic of China :laugh:

Sticks and Pucks 02-16-2013 05:10 PM

Interesting that many of the top American players of all time are defensemen.

TheDevilMadeMe 02-16-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 (Post 59842513)
Technically, Langway was born in Taiwan, no?

Good catch. Would have missed that myself. In that case:

1. Chris Chelios
2. Frank Brimsek
3. Brian Leetch
4. Mike Modano
5. Mark Howe or Pat Lafontaine

TheDevilMadeMe 02-16-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstOverallLine (Post 59842661)
Interesting that many of the top American players of all time are defensemen.

Grew up wanting to be Bobby Orr?

mrhockey193195 02-16-2013 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 (Post 59842493)
Chelios, Brimsek, Leetch, Modano, Howe/Lafontaine

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 59842907)
1. Chris Chelios
2. Frank Brimsek
3. Brian Leetch
4. Mike Modano
5. Mark Howe or Pat Lafontaine

Glad I'm not completely crazy :laugh:

mrhockey193195 02-16-2013 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstOverallLine (Post 59842661)
Interesting that many of the top American players of all time are defensemen.

True, but I think if you look at, say, the top 40 American players of all time, you'll find a pretty normal distribution of forwards, defensemen, and goalies.

I haven't actually compiled a list like that to see for sure, but just my gut feeling.

Big Phil 02-16-2013 05:20 PM

Chelios
Brimsek
Modano
Leetch
Langway/Lafontaine

Yeah Langway was born in Taiwan but was raised American. Kind of the same thing with Dany Heatley, born in Germany raised in Canada. Or Owen Nolan, etc. These guys are not considered to be from the countries they were born if they were raised here.

As for Hull, a little different story. Born in Canada, raised for a large part in Canada. Got cut by Canada and played for the USA because they would take him. Sorry, not an American by any means or else he's probably #2-3 here.

Sticks and Pucks 02-16-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 59842939)
Grew up wanting to be Bobby Orr?

That's a good point. The defensemen that have mentioned did grow up in the era where Orr was dominant (Langway, Chelios, Howe). Leetch came around a bit later though and he was probably the one that ended up most like Orr.

pdd 02-16-2013 08:09 PM

Ok, I'm just going to say this right now.

Mike Modano was not close to as good as, let alone BETTER THAN, Pat LaFontaine.

And this isn't even a case of guys who were different (like Gretzky vs. Lemieux vs. Howe vs. Orr).

Both of them were speedy players. Both could score goals well. LaFontaine was an incredible playmaker... Modano was a decent one. Modano started off as a liability, but developed his game such that for a couple of seasons he was a capable defensive player before waning defensively. LaFontaine was basically average his whole career defensively. Modano never had even close to the overall offensive toolbox that LaFontaine had, and Modano's "defensive peak" wasn't good enough or long enough to overcome that.

I would argue that Jeremy Roenick even has a strong argument against Modano. They're not far apart in points or points per game, and Roenick was always much more physical and better defensively. Roenick also rarely had a Brett Hull with him to rack up points or a Jere Lehtinen to let him roam free. Modano has the Cup, but it can easily be argued that if a) his Stars were facing the 92 Penguins (as Roenick's Blackhawks did in 92) or b) Chris Osgood hadn't gotten injured against Anaheim, that c) the 99 Stars don't win the Cup.

Here's a top 10 (12) of American players.

Chris Chelios
Frank Brimsek
(Brett Hull)
Mark Howe
Brian Leetch
Pat LaFontaine
(Rod Langway)
John Vanbiesbrouck
Jeremy Roenick
Mike Modano
Tom Barrasso
Tim Thomas

HM: Brett Lebda

pdd 02-16-2013 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstOverallLine (Post 59843811)
That's a good point. The defensemen that have mentioned did grow up in the era where Orr was dominant (Langway, Chelios, Howe). Leetch came around a bit later though and he was probably the one that ended up most like Orr.

Leetch is also from Massachusetts.

Chelios is from Chicago.

Howe is from Detroit. He also started playing hockey professionally in 1973-74, as a left wing for the Houston Aeros. He shifted to defense about three seasons later when he was playing for the New England (later Hartford) Whalers, although he would still sometimes take shifts at LW. He was a swift skater and a puck-rushing defenseman, not unlike Orr, until that was taken away from him by a deep laceration caused by an accident involving the goal net (the old-style nets with the "3" shape). Howe lost much of his speed, didn't take any more forward shifts, and was soon dumped to Philadelphia as "damaged goods". We all know how that turned out. Imagine if he hadn't been injured! We might be debating Howe vs. Bourque for the best 80s defenseman.

Langway is also from MA, but was already playing organized hockey by the time Orr was a star. He was drafted by Montreal in 1977 and played his first NHL season in Orr's final season; I can't tell you if they actually played against each other as both played partial seasons.

aemoreira1981 02-16-2013 08:55 PM

No love for Joe Mullen, pride of Hell's Kitchen? He scored over 500 goals and had 110 points in the regular season on the 1989 Cup-winning Flames team. Mullen also was on the Cup-winning Pens teams. I am tempted to substitute Mullen for LaFontaine, although it wouldn't be an easy call. (Mullen was also undrafted; to be fair, LaFontaine had more ppg than Mullen.)

On defense, I'd put in Phil Housley for Brian Leetch.

Evincar 02-16-2013 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 59855889)

I would argue that Jeremy Roenick even has a strong argument against Modano. They're not far apart in points or points per game, and Roenick was always much more physical and better defensively. Roenick also rarely had a Brett Hull with him to rack up points or a Jere Lehtinen to let him roam free. Modano has the Cup, but it can easily be argued that if a) his Stars were facing the 92 Penguins (as Roenick's Blackhawks did in 92) or b) Chris Osgood hadn't gotten injured against Anaheim, that c) the 99 Stars don't win the Cup.

Oh yeah its a sure thing that if Osgood was healthy the Stars wouldnt have won the Cup in 1999.

Evincar 02-16-2013 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 (Post 59861407)
No love for Joe Mullen, pride of Hell's Kitchen? He scored over 500 goals and had 110 points in the regular season on the 1989 Cup-winning Flames team. Mullen also was on the Cup-winning Pens teams. I am tempted to substitute Mullen for LaFontaine, although it wouldn't be an easy call. (Mullen was also undrafted; to be fair, LaFontaine had more ppg than Mullen.)

On defense, I'd put in Phil Housley for Brian Leetch.

Im not sure if Im reading this right, but are you saying Housley was better than Leetch?

Chief 02-16-2013 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 (Post 59861407)
No love for Joe Mullen, pride of Hell's Kitchen? He scored over 500 goals and had 110 points in the regular season on the 1989 Cup-winning Flames team. Mullen also was on the Cup-winning Pens teams. I am tempted to substitute Mullen for LaFontaine, although it wouldn't be an easy call. (Mullen was also undrafted; to be fair, LaFontaine had more ppg than Mullen.)

On defense, I'd put in Phil Housley for Brian Leetch.

You're spot on about Joey Mullen but off on Leetch.

pdd 02-16-2013 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litework (Post 59868987)
Oh yeah its a sure thing that if Osgood was healthy the Stars wouldnt have won the Cup in 1999.

I didn't say it was a sure thing.

But Osgood was Detroit's best player against Anaheim, and "emergency backup" Bill Ranford completely **** the bed against Colorado to the point where an injured Osgood played the last two games anyway.

In hindsight, it probably would have been better to just go with Ranford because then you don't put further strain on Osgood's groin; much like 2010-11, when he returned early from IR when Howard was struggling in January, only to go back on IR and not be available for the postseason.

But the big one is the fact that Roenick's Hawks team had to go against a nigh-unstoppable offensive machine. If not for Stevens' injury, Pittsburgh likely wins the series against the Islanders in 1993 as well. Which puts a high-powered Pittsburgh team against a mediocre Montreal team that was winning by the skin of its teeth. Pittsburgh likely wins, and then goes on and defeats the Kings.

Modano's Stars team wasn't good enough to beat the Penguins as they were in 1992. Heck, the Hawks had Roenick, Larmer, Goulet, Brent Sutter, Graham, Chelios, Steve Smith, Marchment, Keith Brown, Kucera, Belfour, and Hasek. The 99 Stars were a bit better for top four defense, but Chelios was better than anything in Dallas. Larmer was better than Lehtinen, Graham comparable to Carbonneau, and Goulet to Hull. Sutter is a bit of a downgrade offensively from Nieuwendyk, but brings more grit and defense. And Roenick is a huge upgrade on Modano in the respective years. Belfour was between Vezinas (Roy would win 92, Belfour won 91 and 93) but was key to Chicago's deep run, compared to Belfour being an important cog in a Cup win for Dallas.

pdd 02-16-2013 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief (Post 59869585)
You're spot on about Joey Mullen but off on Leetch.

Joey Mullen belongs in the 10-15 or maybe even 15-20 range.

The idea that Mullen is comparable to LaFontaine is silly. They played at the same time and LaFontaine was clearly the MUCH better player then... why would Mullen be better when considering it now?

Fire Julien 02-16-2013 11:19 PM

Michael Thomas Modano Jr
Brian Joseph Leetch
Christos Kostas Tselios
Francis Charles Brimsek
Timothy Thomas Jr

GWOW 02-16-2013 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 59857719)
Leetch is also from Massachusetts.

Chelios is from Chicago.

Howe is from Detroit. He also started playing hockey professionally in 1973-74, as a left wing for the Houston Aeros. He shifted to defense about three seasons later when he was playing for the New England (later Hartford) Whalers, although he would still sometimes take shifts at LW. He was a swift skater and a puck-rushing defenseman, not unlike Orr, until that was taken away from him by a deep laceration caused by an accident involving the goal net (the old-style nets with the "3" shape). Howe lost much of his speed, didn't take any more forward shifts, and was soon dumped to Philadelphia as "damaged goods". We all know how that turned out. Imagine if he hadn't been injured! We might be debating Howe vs. Bourque for the best 80s defenseman.

Langway is also from MA, but was already playing organized hockey by the time Orr was a star. He was drafted by Montreal in 1977 and played his first NHL season in Orr's final season; I can't tell you if they actually played against each other as both played partial seasons.



Leetch was raised in Cheshire, Ct. He only lived in MA when he played at BC?

Nalyd Psycho 02-16-2013 11:21 PM

Wasn't Langway born on a US military base in Taiwan, and are military bases not considered to be land in the territory of the military country, not the host country?

GWOW 02-16-2013 11:24 PM

Modano ahead of Lafontaine? In what universe aside from video games?


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