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-   -   is time for a Jagr vrs. Beliveau thread? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1354317)

Up the Irons 02-19-2013 06:48 AM

is time for a Jagr vrs. Beliveau thread?
 
I'm already convinced the Jagr has surpassed Espo and Bobby Hull on the all-time list of greatest and most important players.

Jagr is probably the 7th greatest player of all-time. Beliveau is the 6th. I don't have to mention the top 5.

I didn't see Beliveau play. but, AFAIC, 68 is the 3rd best player i have ever seen, behind you know who (well, i did see Orr and Howe, but not enough). And he may be entering the club of other 2.

ot92s 02-19-2013 06:55 AM

we're going to need some decent video...otherwise only the guys that saw jb play have any clue what they're talking about.

Theokritos 02-19-2013 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustE (Post 60010553)
I'm already convinced the Jagr has surpassed Espo and Bobby Hull on the all-time list of greatest and most important players.

Many people have Hull ahead of Beliveau.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustE (Post 60010553)
I don't have to mention the top 5.

Sorry, but you're going to have to mention them for me. I'm aware of the top 4, but top 5? I don't think there is a consensus.

LeBlondeDemon10 02-19-2013 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustE (Post 60010553)
I'm already convinced the Jagr has surpassed Espo and Bobby Hull on the all-time list of greatest and most important players.

Jagr is probably the 7th greatest player of all-time. Beliveau is the 6th. I don't have to mention the top 5.

I didn't see Beliveau play. but, AFAIC, 68 is the 3rd best player i have ever seen, behind you know who (well, i did see Orr and Howe, but not enough). And he may be entering the club of other 2.

Hull is ahead of Espo by a number of spots so I don't get the comparison. Hull was a very important player; Espo just a very good player. Also, what's changed in the past 6 months that warrants Jagr's inclusion in the top 7?

JaymzB 02-19-2013 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustE (Post 60010553)
I'm already convinced the Jagr has surpassed Espo and Bobby Hull on the all-time list of greatest and most important players.

Jagr is probably the 7th greatest player of all-time. Beliveau is the 6th. I don't have to mention the top 5.

I didn't see Beliveau play. but, AFAIC, 68 is the 3rd best player i have ever seen, behind you know who (well, i did see Orr and Howe, but not enough). And he may be entering the club of other 2.

Many have Hull ahead of Beliveau (Harvey too). If you have Richard as #5, then you will get a a lot of disagreement here as well.

Mike Farkas 02-19-2013 07:46 AM

What has changed in the last five years on this front?

My initial instinct is: absolutely not.

unknown33 02-19-2013 07:53 AM

I think Jagr vs. Richard would be a more interesting comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 60011391)
What has changed in the last five years on this front?

Rating player that are near the end of their career more favourable (regardless whether they've added something to their resumee or not). Obversed in the Selanne vs. Kurri case for example.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1131513
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=625402

By adding just one >PPG season opinion went from in favour of Kurri's to heavily in favour of Selanne.
Does that mean that Selanne's career in 2009 was underrated and people have trouble to look at active players objectively ignoring projections?
For the ignoring projections part you might look at Alex Ovechkin.

Canadiens1958 02-19-2013 08:02 AM

Complete Player
 
Jean Beliveau was a complete hockey player throughout his career who could be relied on the play defensive hockey at all times. Excellent on faceoffs. A great leader who integrated quickly into a team and facilitated the process for other players that followed him. Hated to lose. Comfortable Top 10 All Time(#5-8).

Jaromir Jagr, "Eye Candy" offensively and that is about it. Niklas Lidstrom was better than Jagr from the standpoint of a complete game, leadership and understanding the dynamics of a team. Yet neither Jagr nor Lidstrom are Top 10 All Time especially if goalies are included.

Epsilon 02-19-2013 08:04 AM

In determining Jagr's placement on an "all-time" list, I find the following players are the most relevant ones to sort out:

1. Guy Lafleur: Before tackling Jagr vs. Richard, Beliveau, or Hull, it's imperative to determine which of these two (clearly the two greatest wingers of the post-expansion era) ranks highest.

2. Nicklas Lidstrom: One of Jagr's closest contemporaries in terms of time period and also rough placement on all-time lists. Arguable easier to compare with Jagr (both being position players) than Hasek if one is concerned with determining the "best European ever" title.

3. Mark Messier: The other top contender for "best forward outside of 99/66 in the Gretzky era onwards". Different style of game than Jagr but determining which of these two you rank higher will give you some idea of what attributes you consider more important.

If one is inclined to rank Jagr ahead of these three, then that probably lands him squarely in the Top 15 and then the tougher comparisons to his contemporaries start: Ray Bourque, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek.

Czech Your Math 02-19-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epsilon (Post 60011785)
In determining Jagr's placement on an "all-time" list, I find the following players are the most relevant ones to sort out:

1. Guy Lafleur: Before tackling Jagr vs. Richard, Beliveau, or Hull, it's imperative to determine which of these two (clearly the two greatest wingers of the post-expansion era) ranks highest.

2. Nicklas Lidstrom: One of Jagr's closest contemporaries in terms of time period and also rough placement on all-time lists. Arguable easier to compare with Jagr (both being position players) than Hasek if one is concerned with determining the "best European ever" title.

3. Mark Messier: The other top contender for "best forward outside of 99/66 in the Gretzky era onwards". Different style of game than Jagr but determining which of these two you rank higher will give you some idea of what attributes you consider more important.

If one is inclined to rank Jagr ahead of these three, then that probably lands him squarely in the Top 15 and then the tougher comparisons to his contemporaries start: Ray Bourque, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek.

Interesting choices for comparison. I would agree that Beliveau is probably not the best comparison for Jagr. I think the closest comparisons are Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito. AFAIC, you might as well compare Jagr to Lemieux & Howe as Lafleur & Messier (no insult intended to any of those players). Given the era in which Espo thrived, and the fact that he excelled exclusively with Orr, it's pretty clear to me that Jagr was better than Espo (among other reasons). That leaves Jagr vs. Bobby Hull, which I've always thought was the best comparison. Lafleur doesn't have near Jagr's longevity, while Messier's peak is wanting IMO (his Harts notwithstanding). Similarly, it's not an easy road comparing to Howe's longevity and Lemieux's peak.

Here is a pretty interesting list of career "Adjusted Goals Created over Replacement Level." I used a RL of 0.20 GC/game (which would be about 16 G & 27 A per 82 games in a 6.0 GPG environment):

1 Gretzky 589
2 Howe 505
3 Lemieux 398
4 Jagr 391
5 Esposito 358
6 Sakic 347
7 Beliveau 318
8 Dionne 313
9 RichardM 311
10 Yzerman 309
11 HullBo 306
12 HullBr 300
13 Mikita 294
14 Selanne 290
15 Messier 286

If you give credit for missing time due to WHA, KHL & lockout seasons, it might look more like this:

1 Gretzky 611
2 Howe 571
3 Jagr 480
4 HullBo 405
5 Lemieux 398

What makes Jagr stand out is that he's not near the top in one or two metrics, but virtually every important and/or comprehensive metric there is:

- Career adjusted Points: He's third in career totals and a very close fourth (to Lemieux) in career above RL, even without crediting him for missed time.

- Peak/Prime adjusted Points: It's close between he and Espo for third, depending on how many seasons one compares. Once you consider that Espo played in an era which was much easier for points (and adjusted points as well), then he slips down to fourth behind Jagr.

- Adjusted Plus-Minus: I think he's third, although data is only since expansion. The only pre-expansion players that were likely to be near his level in this metric were Howe and possibly Hull.

- Hart shares: Again, look at the list, and consider that Jagr was competing with Lemieux & Hasek for much of his prime:

1 Wayne Gretzky 901
2 Gordie Howe 605
3 Mario Lemieux 486
4 Jaromir Jagr 399
5 Bobby Orr 349
6 Bobby Hull 293
7 Dominik Hasek 289
8 Jean Beliveau 283

- Playoff points: He's one point away from having as many playoff points as any non-Oiler.

Big Phil 02-19-2013 04:48 PM

No, Jagr isn't going to be there with Beliveau. People pointed out things already that I agree with. We need to make it clear that Lafleur is inferior to him. I think Jagr beats Lafleur overall in his career but it gets hazy after that. Messier, Esposito and even Mikita are guys you have to tackle. Maybe we can agree that Sakic and Yzerman are a small notch below Jagr and for that matter, Trottier and Schmidt. But there are so many factors when it comes to Messier that this is hardly a clear cut case against Jagr. Esposito in my mind is equal in many ways to Jagr. Style-wise they couldn't be more different but when you judge Esposito you judge effectiveness which is what you essentially judge all players by. Mikita, like Messier, is a guy where you have to factor in defensive awareness. And then to really make it muddy you have the wild card in Morenz.

So if he can get past all of those guys only then can you ask about Hull, Richard or Beliveau. I personally have Beliveau #5 and that isn't uncommon. Hull led the NHL in goals a record 7 times and even if you don't count his WHA career - and I don't rely on it - he still has a career where he really doesn't have a prime, he was always great. Richard and Beliveau both have the regular season hardware as well as being two players I think you would have to put in the top 5 clutch players to ever play. Yes, even Beliveau who is very close to Richard in that category.

Then getting away from non-forward players you have Roy, Hasek, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom. Hall is another one. So is Plante and Sawchuk. I think it is a little tricky to put Jagr at #6 all-time like you said. I think he falls in around a top 15 player, which is hardly a knock. The NHL has been around for so long so it isn't like there aren't a slew of players with great careers.

TheDevilMadeMe 02-19-2013 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 60016017)

- Hart shares: Again, look at the list, and consider that Jagr was competing with Lemieux & Hasek for much of his prime:

1 Wayne Gretzky 901
2 Gordie Howe 605
3 Mario Lemieux 486
4 Jaromir Jagr 399
5 Bobby Orr 349
6 Bobby Hull 293
7 Dominik Hasek 289
8 Jean Beliveau 283
.

HockeyOutsider, the guy who started looking at Hart shares, decided that they weren't comparable between eras because there is generally more consensus in the voting in modern times.

Dennis Bonvie 02-19-2013 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 60016017)
Interesting choices for comparison. I would agree that Beliveau is probably not the best comparison for Jagr. I think the closest comparisons are Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito. AFAIC, you might as well compare Jagr to Lemieux & Howe as Lafleur & Messier (no insult intended to any of those players). Given the era in which Espo thrived, and the fact that he excelled exclusively with Orr, it's pretty clear to me that Jagr was better than Espo (among other reasons). That leaves Jagr vs. Bobby Hull, which I've always thought was the best comparison. Lafleur doesn't have near Jagr's longevity, while Messier's peak is wanting IMO (his Harts notwithstanding). Similarly, it's not an easy road comparing to Howe's longevity and Lemieux's peak.

Here is a pretty interesting list of career "Adjusted Goals Created over Replacement Level." I used a RL of 0.20 GC/game (which would be about 16 G & 27 A per 82 games in a 6.0 GPG environment):

1 Gretzky 589
2 Howe 505
3 Lemieux 398
4 Jagr 391
5 Esposito 358
6 Sakic 347
7 Beliveau 318
8 Dionne 313
9 RichardM 311
10 Yzerman 309
11 HullBo 306
12 HullBr 300
13 Mikita 294
14 Selanne 290
15 Messier 286

If you give credit for missing time due to WHA, KHL & lockout seasons, it might look more like this:

1 Gretzky 611
2 Howe 571
3 Jagr 480
4 HullBo 405
5 Lemieux 398

What makes Jagr stand out is that he's not near the top in one or two metrics, but virtually every important and/or comprehensive metric there is:

- Career adjusted Points: He's third in career totals and a very close fourth (to Lemieux) in career above RL, even without crediting him for missed time.

- Peak/Prime adjusted Points: It's close between he and Espo for third, depending on how many seasons one compares. Once you consider that Espo played in an era which was much easier for points (and adjusted points as well), then he slips down to fourth behind Jagr.

- Adjusted Plus-Minus: I think he's third, although data is only since expansion. The only pre-expansion players that were likely to be near his level in this metric were Howe and possibly Hull.

- Hart shares: Again, look at the list, and consider that Jagr was competing with Lemieux & Hasek for much of his prime:

1 Wayne Gretzky 901
2 Gordie Howe 605
3 Mario Lemieux 486
4 Jaromir Jagr 399
5 Bobby Orr 349
6 Bobby Hull 293
7 Dominik Hasek 289
8 Jean Beliveau 283

- Playoff points: He's one point away from having as many playoff points as any non-Oiler.

Except for that little tourney called the Summit Series.

No Orr there. Espo was the best player and leader of the winning team.

TheDevilMadeMe 02-19-2013 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 60038793)
Except for that little tourney called the Summit Series.

No Orr there. Espo was the best player and leader of the winning team.

No Ken Hodge either, and Wayne Cashman for only 2 games before he was banished to the press box for bad penalties.

This is from a recent blog post at the Edmonton Journal where the author rewatched the Summit Series and counted scoring chances created by and caused by players. This article is called "Phil Esposito was the Mario Lemieux of ’72. Bruins ace was a scoring chance machine for Team Canada," and focused on the first 4 games.

Quote:

The Soviets were horrible on faceoffs, with Phil Esposito often barging towards the net on offensive zone draws and getting a good scoring chance that way. The CCCP had a heck of a time figuring out how to stop Espo on that one.

* Phil Esposito’s play reminds me of Mario Lemieux’s play in 1987. Espo was known to be a guy who parked in the slot, allowing his teammates to do the dirty work in the corners so he could pound in goals off their passes. In this series, with Bobby Orr sidelined, Esposito often carried the puck from end-to-end, warding off Soviet attackers to set up dangerous shots and passes. He moved slow, seemingly, but fast and tricky enough that the CCCP defenders couldn’t get the puck off him with any kind of ease. Just a brilliant performance by Espo, who led the Canadian team in contributions to chances with 38 in the four games, 9.5 per game.
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ery-kharlamov/

Here's an blog post that he made after doing this for all 8 games:

Quote:

Who was Canada’s MVP?
1. Henderson was Canada’s most celebrated player, but he wasn’t necessarily the team’s most valuable performer. At least four other players were as vital to the team’s success: Phil Esposito, Clarke, Park and Savard.

With his stickhandling, shooting, grinding and unbelievably long shifts, Esposito put up more scoring chances than any other player in the series.

In all situations, Espo made some shot, pass, hit or screen that contributed to 67 scoring chances in the eight games. Off that production, he scored 13 official points, seven goals and six assists. He was way ahead of anyone else. Next best was Malstev, 51 contributions to scoring chances (five points), Boris Mikhailov, 48 (5 points), Henderson, 47 (10 points), Yvan Cournoyer, 44 (5 pts), Kharlamov, 39 (7 pts), Park, 38 (5 pts), Alexander Yakushev, 38 (11 pts), and Clarke, 37 (6 pts).
....
Along with his strong even strength play, Park was one of the few Canadians who had any success on the weak Team Canada power play, contributing to 11 chances, behind only Espo, who was in on 13.

Clarke’s case comes from his outstanding even strength play, where he was invariably asked to go up against the top Russian attacking unit, first the Kharlamov trio, then once Clarke had hacked Kharlamov out of the tournament, the Yakushev group. Clarke’s even strength play was exceptionally efficient. He chipped in on 37 scoring chances and made mistakes on just 11 against, making him +26, just a hair behind the extraordinary Espo, who was +28. Finally, Clarke’s penalty killing was next to flawless,and the same goes with Savard.
...
Of course, Henderson’s late game heroics in the three final games are the stuff of enduring Canadian legend.

But there’s no winning those games without the dominance of Esposito, Clarke, Park and Savard.

If I had to pick an MVP, I’d go with Esposito, with Clarke was my runner-up, and Henderson in third place.
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...m-canadas-mvp/

Thanks to overpass who sent me these articles after I drafted Espo in the recent ATD. :handclap:

I would probably rank Jagr over Espo because of longevity as a top player, but I think it's awfully close.

ot92s 02-19-2013 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 60039337)
No Ken Hodge either, and Wayne Cashman for only 2 games before he was banished to the press box for bad penalties.

This is from a recent blog post at the Edmonton Journal where the author rewatched the Summit Series and counted scoring chances created by and caused by players. This article is called "Phil Esposito was the Mario Lemieux of 72. Bruins ace was a scoring chance machine for Team Canada," and focused on the first 4 games.



http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ery-kharlamov/

Here's an blog post that he made after doing this for all 8 games:

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...m-canadas-mvp/

Thanks to overpass who sent me these articles after I drafted Espo in the recent ATD. :handclap:

I would probably rank Jagr over Espo because of longevity as a top player, but I think it's awfully close.

wow bravo to the writer who broke that down. forget stats...that's the proper way to break down historic players if there is video available...

Czech Your Math 02-19-2013 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 60036151)
No, Jagr isn't going to be there with Beliveau. People pointed out things already that I agree with. We need to make it clear that Lafleur is inferior to him. I think Jagr beats Lafleur overall in his career but it gets hazy after that. Messier, Esposito and even Mikita are guys you have to tackle. Maybe we can agree that Sakic and Yzerman are a small notch below Jagr and for that matter, Trottier and Schmidt. But there are so many factors when it comes to Messier that this is hardly a clear cut case against Jagr. Esposito in my mind is equal in many ways to Jagr. Style-wise they couldn't be more different but when you judge Esposito you judge effectiveness which is what you essentially judge all players by. Mikita, like Messier, is a guy where you have to factor in defensive awareness. And then to really make it muddy you have the wild card in Morenz.

So if he can get past all of those guys only then can you ask about Hull, Richard or Beliveau. I personally have Beliveau #5 and that isn't uncommon. Hull led the NHL in goals a record 7 times and even if you don't count his WHA career - and I don't rely on it - he still has a career where he really doesn't have a prime, he was always great. Richard and Beliveau both have the regular season hardware as well as being two players I think you would have to put in the top 5 clutch players to ever play. Yes, even Beliveau who is very close to Richard in that category.

Then getting away from non-forward players you have Roy, Hasek, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom. Hall is another one. So is Plante and Sawchuk. I think it is a little tricky to put Jagr at #6 all-time like you said. I think he falls in around a top 15 player, which is hardly a knock. The NHL has been around for so long so it isn't like there aren't a slew of players with great careers.

In terms of effectiveness, I don't think Jagr has many peers, and the numbers bear that out. I just don't see Beliveau as a very good comparison for Jagr, given that he was part of a dynasty in the O6 era. As I said, Hull and Espo seem the best comparison to me in terms of similarity of both achievement and circumstance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 60036319)
HockeyOutsider, the guy who started looking at Hart shares, decided that they weren't comparable between eras because there is generally more consensus in the voting in modern times.

It's difficult comparing anything across such vast stretches of time, but if I were asked for a top 8 of all-time, that would be about as good as any which I could assemble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 60038793)
Except for that little tourney called the Summit Series.

No Orr there. Espo was the best player and leader of the winning team.

True, just like there was no Hasek at the '05 best on best World Championship. I understand the importance placed on the Summit Series by Canadians, but to me it's a single international tournament, except exclusively played by two teams. I don't even value international play very highly, although I can see it being given more prominence for players with weaker playoff records (e.g. Selanne) or those who did not play much or at all in the NHL.

Big Phil 02-19-2013 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 60063767)
In terms of effectiveness, I don't think Jagr has many peers, and the numbers bear that out. I just don't see Beliveau as a very good comparison for Jagr, given that he was part of a dynasty in the O6 era. As I said, Hull and Espo seem the best comparison to me in terms of similarity of both achievement and circumstance.

I agree, they aren't the best comparisons. Beliveau was a center, if that matters, and was effective until the day he retired. I don't think Jagr's overall game makes up for Beliveau's. Actually, the only thing Jagr beats him at would be more Art Rosses. Beliveau could play any style of game and if you throw in the fact he was better defensively, at least as good from a playmaking perspective and probably better as a goal scorer and top it all off with his leadership intangibles, then I don't see how Jagr could ever be rated ahead of him.

Sort of the same with Hull. I don't think a GM passes on Hull if they have a toss up between him and Jagr on their team. Jagr doesn't have a lot of peers, I agree, but if he does have players superior to him it is Beliveau and Hull.

Esposito fits the bill the best. Both won 5 Art Rosses (4 in a row), both played with an all-time great. You could do a decent Esposito/Jagr poll. In fact, I think Jagr has surpassed Lafleur all-time.

OrrNumber4 02-19-2013 09:57 PM

Offensively, Jagr may very well be up there. Top 10 all time...

LeBlondeDemon10 02-19-2013 10:24 PM

Jagr has surpassed Lafleur because of his longevity and his peak is slightly longer too, but really they are the best comparison. Both were wingers with multiple seasons of 50+ goals 70+ assists, with assists being the key stat. There are very few wingers in the history of the game with 70+ assists in a season, never mind multiple times. Off the top of my head, the only other wingers I can think of with over 70 assists in a season are Bossy and Recchi. Jagr and Lafleur were both wingers who played like center-men.

pdd 02-19-2013 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 60011747)
Yet neither Jagr nor Lidstrom are Top 10 All Time especially if goalies are included.

Both are top ten. Neither are top eight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 60072863)
Jagr and Lafleur were both wingers who played like center-men.

I have read that there was a point where Montreal decided to try Lafleur at center, and he wa terrible so they gave up on the experiment. I can't tell you for certain how true that is, but it would definitely mean that Lafleur didn't play "like a center".

Also, rocket scientist Joe Juneau (natural center, playing on the LW) had 70 assists in 92-93 playing with Adam Oates and Dmitri Kvartalnov.

LeBlondeDemon10 02-19-2013 10:48 PM

Quote:

I have read that there was a point where Montreal decided to try Lafleur at center, and he wa terrible so they gave up on the experiment. I can't tell you for certain how true that is, but it would definitely mean that Lafleur didn't play "like a center".
Bowman did try him at center, I believe, early in Lafleur's career. However, Bowman was also the one that stated that Lafleur was a winger who played like a center.

Darth Yoda 02-19-2013 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 60075305)
Bowman did try him at center, I believe, early in Lafleur's career. However, Bowman was also the one that stated that Lafleur was a winger who played like a center.

Any ideas what he could have meant be that anybody? Lafleur had more assists than goals is one observation, are Jagr a good comparison in this way? Also, are centers always more defensively aware then wingers?

Up the Irons 02-20-2013 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epsilon (Post 60011785)
In determining Jagr's placement on an "all-time" list, I find the following players are the most relevant ones to sort out:

1. Guy Lafleur: Before tackling Jagr vs. Richard, Beliveau, or Hull, it's imperative to determine which of these two (clearly the two greatest wingers of the post-expansion era) ranks highest.

2. Nicklas Lidstrom: One of Jagr's closest contemporaries in terms of time period and also rough placement on all-time lists. Arguable easier to compare with Jagr (both being position players) than Hasek if one is concerned with determining the "best European ever" title.

3. Mark Messier: The other top contender for "best forward outside of 99/66 in the Gretzky era onwards". Different style of game than Jagr but determining which of these two you rank higher will give you some idea of what attributes you consider more important.

If one is inclined to rank Jagr ahead of these three, then that probably lands him squarely in the Top 15 and then the tougher comparisons to his contemporaries start: Ray Bourque, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek.

very well said. I pretty much agree, especially with the players your mention as notable comparisons to Jagr.

after the top 5 (99, 4, 9, 66, 9), the next group (Belivieau, Hull, Espo, Lafleur, Messier, Sawchuck, Harvey, Morenz, Lidstrom, and more) it gets muddy. that group probably includes about 15-20 guys, all of whom were generational talents, hugely important careers.

I do think Jagr is in the top 10. Not ready to compare to Richard, no chance. Beliveau? i don't no. probably no, again.

Up the Irons 02-20-2013 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 60036151)
No, Jagr isn't going to be there with Beliveau. People pointed out things already that I agree with. We need to make it clear that Lafleur is inferior to him. I think Jagr beats Lafleur overall in his career but it gets hazy after that. Messier, Esposito and even Mikita are guys you have to tackle. Maybe we can agree that Sakic and Yzerman are a small notch below Jagr and for that matter, Trottier and Schmidt. But there are so many factors when it comes to Messier that this is hardly a clear cut case against Jagr. Esposito in my mind is equal in many ways to Jagr. Style-wise they couldn't be more different but when you judge Esposito you judge effectiveness which is what you essentially judge all players by. Mikita, like Messier, is a guy where you have to factor in defensive awareness. And then to really make it muddy you have the wild card in Morenz.

So if he can get past all of those guys only then can you ask about Hull, Richard or Beliveau. I personally have Beliveau #5 and that isn't uncommon. Hull led the NHL in goals a record 7 times and even if you don't count his WHA career - and I don't rely on it - he still has a career where he really doesn't have a prime, he was always great. Richard and Beliveau both have the regular season hardware as well as being two players I think you would have to put in the top 5 clutch players to ever play. Yes, even Beliveau who is very close to Richard in that category.

Then getting away from non-forward players you have Roy, Hasek, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom. Hall is another one. So is Plante and Sawchuk. I think it is a little tricky to put Jagr at #6 all-time like you said. I think he falls in around a top 15 player, which is hardly a knock. The NHL has been around for so long so it isn't like there aren't a slew of players with great careers.

good point.

quoipourquoi 02-20-2013 02:26 AM

It all comes down to where you fall on the spectrum of ranking players by peak or by career. If you go by peak only, I could entertain an argument for Jagr in the top-10. If you go by career contribution, I don't know if Jagr's extra 2 points per 82 games over contemporary Sakic really puts him in the Beliveau range, considering Beliveau's contemporary was Howe, and Beliveau passed him in career points-per-game when they were still in their early-30s.

Personally, I put Jagr in the #12-18 range and Beliveau in the #5-11 range.


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