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-   -   GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1354493)

LadyStanley 02-19-2013 12:29 PM

GMs to discuss size of goalie equipment
 
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...lie-equipment/

Might require a lot of new equipment to be purchased if changes made.

cbcwpg 02-19-2013 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyStanley (Post 60022257)
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...lie-equipment/

Might require a lot of new equipment to be purchased if changes made.

Not again.... :banghead:

Why don't they just put them in the net wearing nothing already if they want the goals to go up? :sarcasm:

Here's the thing. You can make the equipment smaller all you want ( to a point because you have to keep safety in mind ), and in the short term it might make a slight difference, but in the long term it makes little difference. The goalies of today are way better trained and keep getting better than past goalies and will continue to do so.

The other problem with changing the goal equipment, is it becomes a filter down problem. It would be one thing if the equipment manufacturers would make one set of equipment for the pros and continue to make what they make for everyone else, but they don't. When my kid was playing goal he had to buy new pads / trapper / blocker one year because the NHL changed their specs and the manufacturers stopped making the old stuff across the board. And all the leagues from house up adopted the new sizes as rules. So you had to get new stuff.

cutchemist42 02-19-2013 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcwpg (Post 60023053)
Not again.... :banghead:

Why don't they just put them in the net wearing nothing already if they want the goals to go up? :sarcasm:

Here's the thing. You can make the equipment smaller all you want ( to a point because you have to keep safety in mind ), and in the short term it might make a slight difference, but in the long term it makes little difference. The goalies of today are way better trained and keep getting better than past goalies and will continue to do so.

The other problem with changing the goal equipment, is it becomes a filter down problem. It would be one thing if the equipment manufacturers would make one set of equipment for the pros and continue to make what they make for everyone else, but they don't. When my kid was playing goal he had to buy new pads / trapper / blocker one year because the NHL changed their specs and the manufacturers stopped making the old stuff across the board. And all the leagues from house up adopted the new sizes as rules. So you had to get new stuff.

I'm personally of the opinion that very few leagues should have gone with the chances except the ones closest to the NHL.I hate the fact that parents had to buy new goalie equipment for a kid that will never see the NHL or even CHL hockey, simply because a corporation decided on a different size.

As a goalie, I don't really see what you could do? 10" width pads? Make measurements of every goalie's Ankle to Knee and allow pads pertaining to those sizes?

My personal opinion is to just make the net slightly taller and slightly wider. Slightly taller since the butterfly has made low goals impossible, and slight wider to make a goalie's butterfly not possible to fully cover the bottom of the net.

Tough Guy 02-19-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutchemist42 (Post 60025913)
I'm personally of the opinion that very few leagues should have gone with the chances except the ones closest to the NHL.I hate the fact that parents had to buy new goalie equipment for a kid that will never see the NHL or even CHL hockey, simply because a corporation decided on a different size.

As a goalie, I don't really see what you could do? 10" width pads? Make measurements of every goalie's Ankle to Knee and allow pads pertaining to those sizes?

My personal opinion is to just make the net slightly taller and slightly wider. Slightly taller since the butterfly has made low goals impossible, and slight wider to make a goalie's butterfly not possible to fully cover the bottom of the net.

Something has to happen, and I would prefer it be some pretty radical changes to goalie gear as opposed to increasing the size of the nets.

The NHL has to FINALLY address this issue once and for all. If it requires a R&D investment and collaboration with all the equipment manufacturers, then so be it. There needs to be a generational change in this area, not a cm off from the leg pad and a cm off from the glove. There needs to be a total 100% paradigm shift - equipment is for protection, not clogging up the net to stop pucks.

They can easily cut the leg pads back to their original 10". Goalies might have to wear a new type of shin pad under the traditional goalie pads to make it work, but it can easily be accomplished. If they sent a man to the moon, they can damn well figure out a way to get the leg pads back to 10". The blocker has lots of room for improvement as well.

XX 02-19-2013 03:29 PM

Isn't there a good analysis floating out there that shows it's mainly technique and team defense that has cut down on goals?

Blind Gardien 02-19-2013 03:31 PM

Make the puck a little smaller. :dunno:

Kane One 02-19-2013 03:32 PM

The goalie equipment size should not change. They should make the nets bigger to be the same ratio of net size to average goalie size as it was years ago.

cheswick 02-19-2013 03:35 PM

Goalie equipment is absolutely way bigger than it needs to be just to protect the player. With that said, it won't make that big of a difference even if they get it down to reasonable sizes.

HabsByTheBay 02-19-2013 03:42 PM

Are they going to regulate pads on the upper body too? I felt like those grew a lot in the 90s. Let's not even go into catchers.

cheswick 02-19-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay (Post 60032505)
Are they going to regulate pads on the upper body too? I felt like those grew a lot in the 90s. Let's not even go into catchers.

No idea what you're talking about...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y33/lougio/gb19.jpg

Kane One 02-19-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay (Post 60032505)
Are they going to regulate pads on the upper body too? I felt like those grew a lot in the 90s. Let's not even go into catchers.

To me, it seems like the chest protection is much more out of hand than the pads.

Kebekoi 02-19-2013 03:56 PM

Soft elbows, shoulder pads for players for concussions. Smaller goalie pads, blocker, glove for goals.

Dado 02-19-2013 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XX (Post 60031725)
Isn't there a good analysis floating out there that shows it's mainly technique and team defense that has cut down on goals?

Team defence is predicated on specific goalie styles, and goalie styles are in turn predicated on goalie equipment. Revert to Glen Hall era equipment, and nobody is playing butterfly style, which in turn makes the "trap and collapse" system play becomes counter-productive.

But they aren't going to revert equipment like that, so I think they'd be better off changing goal size instead. Add a foot in each direction, that should do it.

XX 02-19-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dado (Post 60033585)
But they aren't going to revert equipment like that, so I think they'd be better off changing goal size instead. Add a foot in each direction, that should do it.

If you want to placate people with ADD and make it artificially exciting, sure. But I don't correlate exciting hockey with high scores, and I'm probably not alone in doing so. Teams stacking 5 guys on the blue line, forcing dump and chase, is what is bad for the product.

Dado 02-19-2013 04:19 PM

It's not about high scores. I have no issue with the number of goals being scored.

What I don't like is the low quality of the goals/chances being generated. Right now, they mostly suck, I find nothing skillfull or scintillating about watching a puck randomly bounce through 8 bodies in front of the net.

I want to watch skill and transition play, not puckchinko. If expanding the goal size reduces the current playing styles (and it might not, we won't know until we actually try), then I'm all for it.

Gigantor The Goalie 02-19-2013 05:12 PM

If you expand the nets then you'll have to expand the rink or else your just taking more rink away from the players. Plus if you change the net size you'll scoring way up then it might go back down. Big might there as any player will be able to the puck in due to the fact that goalies would not be able to physically cover that much space. Plus there's the trickle down effect. You have to get every league where potential NHLer's could come from to change their net size.

Kane One 02-19-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie (Post 60037379)
If you expand the nets then you'll have to expand the rink or else your just taking more rink away from the players. Plus if you change the net size you'll scoring way up then it might go back down. Big might there as any player will be able to the puck in due to the fact that goalies would not be able to physically cover that much space. Plus there's the trickle down effect. You have to get every league where potential NHLer's could come from to change their net size.

How about make the net wider and taller, but take a few inches off the back. It's a goal when it passes the goal line. You don't need the net to be over a foot deep.

I'm definitely cool with this, but I'm concerned about how long it would take for the league to get a goalie who has adapted to this. I think every current goalie's career would pretty much suck after this. Also, the goalies for the next few years wouldn't be that good.

Gigantor The Goalie 02-19-2013 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker McDonald (Post 60037529)
How about make the net wider and taller, but take a few inches off the back. It's a goal when it passes the goal line. You don't need the net to be over a foot deep.

I'm definitely cool with this, but I'm concerned about how long it would take for the league to get a goalie who has adapted to this. I think every current goalie's career would pretty much suck after this. Also, the goalies for the next few years wouldn't be that good.

The goalies occupying that net would be brutal for years to come. This will increase the want for tall, big goalies. Goalies will adapt but it will take time. Until then players are going to have a field day. Everybody complains about lack of scoring, this change happens and everyone be complaining that their goalie can't stop a puck. You have no idea just how a couple inches here and there would completely throw off every goalie in the league.

Also changing the net size seems really tacky. It won't be skill making these goals happen, it'll be any player just coming down the ice firing a hard shot and scoring because the goalie cannot physically move faster then the puck or a pass a foot over to another player who would have a whole net to shoot at.

Mike Farkas 02-19-2013 05:24 PM

I'm in for this, not because I like high scoring games (quite the opposite actually) but because it might influence a revolutionary change in goaltending technique. Put more emphasis on reflexes and anticipation instead of percentages and chest protector size.

Tough Guy 02-19-2013 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie (Post 60037877)
Also changing the net size seems really tacky. It won't be skill making these goals happen, it'll be any player just coming down the ice firing a hard shot and scoring because the goalie cannot physically move faster then the puck or a pass a foot over to another player who would have a whole net to shoot at.

You can say the exact same thing for goalies now. That it's not skill stopping all those pucks, just any player blocking as much net as possible with the butterfly style.

You can't have it both ways. Goalie gear can't balloon into "gigantor" proportions while the net stays the same size. Something has to give.

Kane One 02-19-2013 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie (Post 60037877)
The goalies occupying that net would be brutal for years to come. This will increase the want for tall, big goalies. Goalies will adapt but it will take time. Until then players are going to have a field day. Everybody complains about lack of scoring, this change happens and everyone be complaining that their goalie can't stop a puck. You have no idea just how a couple inches here and there would completely throw off every goalie in the league.

Also changing the net size seems really tacky. It won't be skill making these goals happen, it'll be any player just coming down the ice firing a hard shot and scoring because the goalie cannot physically move faster then the puck or a pass a foot over to another player who would have a whole net to shoot at.

How about adding a centimeter or so every few years? As unfair as you make it seem for a goalie, I don't see why it's fair that a goalie could take up much more than 50% of the net. If you look at some teams, like the Rangers for example, most of their goals come from right in front of the net. The few shots they take that don't go wide (:laugh:) could easily be stopped by a goalie who could stand out about a foot away from the crease to make himself look bigger.

Lacaar 02-19-2013 05:31 PM

I'm all for it. Goaltending used to be an exciting position. Now it's the least exciting.

Make them make saves not block shots.

Agreed with the other posters too. The NHL bases it's defensive styles on the butterfly goalie system. Which bases itself on massive equipment to eat up the surface are of available net.
Clog up the shooting lanes to drive the odds of scoring down to flukes. Fluke goals are not exciting.

Goaltending is not the reactionary position it used to be. Now days it's anticpiation. Get in position and look big. Not nearly as exciting to watch.

Dado 02-19-2013 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie (Post 60037877)
It won't be skill making these goals happen, it'll be any player just coming down the ice firing a hard shot and scoring because the goalie cannot physically move faster then the puck or a pass a foot over to another player who would have a whole net to shoot at.

Ah...but that's the key...it would mean system play would have to completely change...instead of simply clogging the area in front of the goal with an excess of shin pads, teams would have to play more aggressive D further out from the net to prevent those clean shots...

Thereby creating more space, everywhere...

Which, I think, is what most of us would be hoping for.

MountainHawk 02-19-2013 05:34 PM

It's simple, padding should not be allowed to extend past the body by more than about 1 inch. You can have as much padding out front as you want, but if your shin is 5" across, the pad should be no more than 6".

Gigantor The Goalie 02-19-2013 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 60038329)
You can say the exact same thing for goalies now. That it's not skill stopping all those pucks, just any player blocking as much net as possible with the butterfly style.

You can't have it both ways. Goalie gear can't balloon into "gigantor" proportions while the net stays the same size. Something has to give.

Goalie equipment cannot grow anymore. It's already been cut down. You can't touch the pads or the trapper and blocker. Chest protector could shave off a few inches here or there. You also have to keep in mind that a goalie such as Rinne due to size is going to have larger equipment then someone like Jonathon Bernier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker McDonald (Post 60038401)
How about adding a centimeter or so every few years? As unfair as you make it seem for a goalie, I don't see why it's fair that a goalie could take up much more than 50% of the net. If you look at some teams, like the Rangers for example, most of their goals come from right in front of the net. The few shots they take that don't go wide (:laugh:) could easily be stopped by a goalie who could stand out about a foot away from the crease to make himself look bigger.

Challenging the shooter is part of goaltending. We could stand on the goalline however that isn't very exciting and we'd be scored on constantly. The optimal position is on top of the crease though some goalies might stay a few inches back due to the chance of a cross crease pass. Players can now get off a shot or pass without telegraphing it which puts the goalie at a severe disadvantage seeing as how the puck can be fired faster and move faster then the goalie can move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lacaar (Post 60038419)
I'm all for it. Goaltending used to be an exciting position. Now it's the least exciting.

Make them make saves not block shots.

Agreed with the other posters too. The NHL bases it's defensive styles on the butterfly goalie system. Which bases itself on massive equipment to eat up the surface are of available net.
Clog up the shooting lanes to drive the odds of scoring down to flukes. Fluke goals are not exciting.

Goaltending is not the reactionary position it used to be. Now days it's anticpiation. Get in position and look big. Not nearly as exciting to watch.

From every goalie in the world, we don't care what you think is exciting or not. Our job is to stop pucks. If we want to use the most successful goaltending technique then we're going to use it. Of course we want to be in position and look big, thats the point. Goalies realized "hey why should we make it easy on the shooter? Lets move out a bit and make it as difficult as possible to score".

Don't see why the onus is on us goalies to change just because you players can't score. Why is it our fault? We do we have to take steps backwards while you players get to move forwards?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dado (Post 60038443)
Ah...but that's the key...it would mean system play would have to completely change...instead of simply clogging the area in front of the goal with an excess of shin pads, teams would have to play more aggressive D further out from the net to prevent those clean shots...

Thereby creating more space, everywhere...

Which, I think, is what most of us would be hoping for.

You prevent the clean shot but then you leave the pass option wide open. If the goalie is forced to challenge aggressively because he figured out that the net is wider and taller then him due to the puck flying by multiple times without him not being able to touch it. All we'll see is a pass about a foot over which should be enough for a wide open net. Put it on the far side of the goalie and you have yourself an easy goal.


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