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-   -   Speculation: Has Adam Oates Been Fired Yet???? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1354553)

swimmer77 02-19-2013 01:44 PM

Has Adam Oates Been Fired Yet????
 
Mods: I hope this is considered a legit question and worthy of its own thread. If it's merged I'm going to start a Hamrlik thread with all sorts of essays. :sarcasm:

Anyway, I'm troubled. Dale Hunter took this Greenless team last year on the fly and seemed to have an immediate impact and agenda. He was also without Backstrom for a good chunk of time. So without two of the team's best players the boat stayed afloat even after a change of course.

I'm having trouble seeing an improvement with Adam Oates since the beginning of the season. The Florida game, despite the win, was dreadful and they were completely lucky to get 2 since Florida botched a 4 on 1.

The NYR are a team I thought would get the Caps motivated into a revengeful mood. Holtby was the only one that showed up. If not for him the score would have been embarrassing.

Has Oates made progress? He does not have a quality win. Will it happen with two tries against the Devils - at home.

californiacapsfan 02-19-2013 02:01 PM

I think he has made progress. I think the roster is poorly built -- worst in several years -- and the team has been through 3 systems in 18 months, with Oates's being the most complex, comprehensive, and demanding of the three.

brs03 02-19-2013 02:14 PM

I like some of the structural stuff I've seen on the powerplay. I don't know what I'm supposed to have seen overall, so I really can't say whether I'm happy with his work yet. Some of the Caps' underlying numbers are pretty decent (middle of the pack at worst) and I guess I'm happy with that.

At the very least, I'm curious to see what he could/will do with some more talented and/or smarter pieces in some key spots (how will he use Orlov, how will he use Laich, etc.)

I do think the D usage has been questionable, although since I'm basically all in on the tank at this point it doesn't really bother me. If he get into the head of a guy like Carlson and get him where he needs to be by next season then I'll be pleased.

IafrateOvie34 02-19-2013 02:22 PM

I think he has for the PP considering how bad it was last year. I can't really judge too much during a shortened season. I think he has the hockey knowledge and experience to be a good coach. I am hoping he can teach the Centers how to win faceoffs. The problems I see with this team is upper management.

Millhaus 02-19-2013 02:26 PM

Without a doubt I feel they have made progress. Not nearly enough but progress has been made IMO.

The one thing about this coaching staff that is grinding my gears is their apparent slavish adherence to blueliners playing on their 'correct' side. Green is out so since Carlson and Kundratek are the only righties still in the lineup they get 26+ and 23+ minutes respectively while Poti plays less than 10. For Kundratek that is around 10 minutes more than he is averaging. What the hell is that...?

californiacapsfan 02-19-2013 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millhaus (Post 60028455)
Without a doubt I feel they have made progress. Not nearly enough but progress has been made IMO.

The one thing about this coaching staff that is grinding my gears is their apparent slavish adherence to blueliners playing on their 'correct' side. Green is out so since Carlson and Kundratek are the only righties still in the lineup they get 26+ and 23+ minutes respectively while Poti plays less than 10. For Kundratek that is around 10 minutes more than he is averaging. What the hell is that...?

Agree. Very strange. I wonder if it's a cover for the fact that the D quality is just low.

Millhaus 02-19-2013 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by californiacapsfan (Post 60028557)
Agree. Very strange. I wonder if it's a cover for the fact that the D quality is just low.

I'm not the Kundratek fan that many are around here but he has been doing ok with his 12-15 minutes a game. There is no way in hell he is ready for anywhere close to the minutes he got against the Rangers though. And there is also no way Poti and/or Hamrlik can't handle a decent amount more than 9+ minutes as those two have played tons of games on their off sides in the past.

I'm very curious to see how Orlov is used when/if he returns this season. If everyone is supposed to play on their correct side in Oates' system I guess this crappy season is an ideal time to try to get Orlov more comfortable on the left because based on last year he has a long while to go before he will be comfortable over there.

newfr4u 02-19-2013 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millhaus (Post 60028455)
Without a doubt I feel they have made progress. Not nearly enough but progress has been made IMO.

The one thing about this coaching staff that is grinding my gears is their apparent slavish adherence to blueliners playing on their 'correct' side. Green is out so since Carlson and Kundratek are the only righties still in the lineup they get 26+ and 23+ minutes respectively while Poti plays less than 10. For Kundratek that is around 10 minutes more than he is averaging. What the hell is that...?

Oates does that because his system revolves around creating shots from as many positions as possible, while controlling the boards. you put a lefty on the right point, and he is going to have trouble digging the puck from the boards while simultaneously looking for an opportunistic shot and a D-to-D pass.

yeah, we pretty much suck on D right now.

also, Kundratek is a lefty according to his wiki. and he is pretty bad right now. you simply can't have erskine/kundratek out there in the third. wtf.

RandyHolt 02-19-2013 02:50 PM

While we have shown some progress through blind luck we were going to get a win or 2. I would like to hear a clear concise summary of the Oates system. I have no idea.

I didn't like some of the early things he did, rotating 7 day in game 1 for instance. I didn't like some of the lines he constructed but I can say that of all coaches. I did like that he let Ovi get a few games at LW to reaffirm his old move is still doubled or tripled every time. So he has made a few improvements that may have helped us get some wins. He appears to have set plays on the faceoff, and the PP has gotten better.

I feel like he is dragging his skates getting a good partner for Carlson though. He has so many options at LD but refuses to try Hammer, but that is probably a directive from above.

Millhaus 02-19-2013 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfr4u (Post 60029365)
Oates does that because his system revolves around creating shots from as many positions as possible, while controlling the boards. you put a lefty on the right point, and he is going to have trouble digging the puck from the boards while simultaneously looking for an opportunistic shot and a D-to-D pass.

yeah, we pretty much suck on D right now.

also, Kundratek is a lefty according to his wiki. and he is pretty bad right now. you simply can't have erskine/kundratek out there in the third. wtf.

NHL.com says Kundratek is a lefty also but unless he is simply trying something new and playing as a righty this season they are both wrong...

Also lefties have been playing on the right and digging the puck off the boards just fine since the beginning of time.

Liberati0n* 02-19-2013 02:56 PM

Agree with everything Millhaus said. I'm all for sticking to principles (provided they're well founded), but especially with Green out they need to recognize when it's doing more harm than good. I hope they don't force Orlov to the left, but they probably will. I really doubt he'll be back this season though.

Ovechkins Wodka 02-19-2013 02:58 PM

The offensive zone passing is looking much better. The new PP gets better each game. They are not as bad as our record says.

RandyHolt 02-19-2013 02:59 PM

Offside D are digging the puck off the boards just fine if they have been playing it since the beginning of time.

But many have not, and struggle.

It's why you put a "hands" guy on the offside, a more offensive guy with a strong backhand.

Its not just my obsession, its George's. I would swear it's in the caps bible written largely Bryan Murray.

newfr4u 02-19-2013 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millhaus (Post 60029823)
NHL.com says Kundratek is a lefty also but unless he is simply trying something new and playing as a righty this season they are both wrong...

Also lefties have been playing on the right and digging the puck off the boards just fine since the beginning of time.

i am saying the "system" right now forces the right defenseman to sometimes take the puck and fire it right back on net or pass it for a one-timer to the left, pretty much in the mold of Mike Green. I understand that lefties have played the right side for a long time, but they are not going to be quicker with that particular skill as a natural righty. once the opposition has figured out that it takes you half a second longer to make the play, they pressure you quicker at the point, and the "system" breaks.

one thing i've noticed is that the caps still dump and chase a lot while entering the zone, while the better puck-possession teams have ALL started favoring entries with possession. same goes to line changes. we probably won't have enough data on this until at least next season, but early on it seems oates hasn't made that adjustment yet, probably due to only working with the team for a short time.

Millhaus 02-19-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfr4u (Post 60030455)
i am saying the "system" right now forces the right defenseman to sometimes take the puck and fire it right back on net or pass it for a one-timer to the left, pretty much in the mold of Mike Green. I understand that lefties have played the right side for a long time, but they are not going to be quicker with that particular skill as a natural righty. once the opposition has figured out that it takes you half a second longer to make the play, they pressure you quicker at the point, and the "system" breaks.

one thing i've noticed is that the caps still dump and chase a lot while entering the zone, while the better puck-possession teams have ALL started favoring entries with possession. same goes to line changes. we probably won't have enough data on this until at least next season, but early on it seems oates hasn't made that adjustment yet, probably due to only working with the team for a short time.

And I saying there is nothing particularly unique about this system that doesn't apply to playing hockey in general. Guys have been taking the puck off the boards on their off sides while under pressure and making every kind of pass possible since the beginning of time. Are some things easier when playing your 'correct' side? Sure just like some things are easier when playing your off side.

I'm not saying every guy can play his off side because that is not the case as it takes more puck skill but Poti and Hamrlik both have enough skill to play their off side well enough that the likes of Kundratek don't have to play 23+ minutes simply because he is a righty.

newfr4u 02-19-2013 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millhaus (Post 60032141)
And I saying there is nothing particularly unique about this system that doesn't apply to playing hockey in general. Guys have been taking the puck off the boards on their off sides while under pressure and making every kind of pass possible since the beginning of time. Are some things easier when playing your 'correct' side? Sure just like some things are easier when playing your off side.

yes, there are things that are easier and harder. and *in this system* (which i admit we don't know what it really is yet) relies on moving the puck very quick from the right point. in other systems, d-men are allowed to rotate, participate in the cycle, etc. in this one, they are not. so their off side skills are less useful. combine that with a poor defenseman corp, and defenses can stop the caps attack every time we need the RD to make a play.

Quote:

I'm not saying every guy can play his off side because that is not the case as it takes more puck skill but Poti and Hamrlik both have enough skill to play their off side well enough that the likes of Kundratek don't have to play 23+ minutes simply because he is a righty.
you'll get no argument from me that kundratek as a righty is probably still worse than poti and hamrlik on their off side, both of whom are also probably poor players for this particular system.

swimmer77 02-20-2013 06:54 AM

I can't tell if Oates has made progress or not. IDK what the system is supposed to be like. I learned a little about the expectations from the d-men on offense from one poster here. That makes sense I guess but isn't d-man's job to play d too?

Progress is defined by sitting next to last in the league? The team's one big change is the coach............again. But yet Hunter came in on the fly, changed the "system", had arguably a lesser roster to work with because of injuries and got them in the playoffs.

Anyway...........this article is interesting and it's one area that has not improved and has costed the Caps games without a doubt. And they all know but can't correct it.

Penalties, Penalty Kill

But there are a few things adding up if this was going to be a throwaway learning season. McPhee didn't make many moves except for Ribeiro. Oates' continued mantra of "playing the correct" even if it means a loss I guess. Benching the 35 + plus crowd. Throwing Kundratek in the fire.

Is throwing the season away what the players wanted?

BTCG 02-20-2013 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millhaus (Post 60028455)
Without a doubt I feel they have made progress. Not nearly enough but progress has been made IMO.

The one thing about this coaching staff that is grinding my gears is their apparent slavish adherence to blueliners playing on their 'correct' side. Green is out so since Carlson and Kundratek are the only righties still in the lineup they get 26+ and 23+ minutes respectively while Poti plays less than 10. For Kundratek that is around 10 minutes more than he is averaging. What the hell is that...?

That's called playing in the 'box', Millhaus. It's a basic style often seen with kid's house hockey teams.

And generally... it's employed by lesser skilled teams.

BTCG 02-20-2013 07:11 AM

Oh... and to add to that... this is probably why we saw Erskine doing so much east/west movement. Adam is a position coach.

BTCG 02-20-2013 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyHolt (Post 60029677)
While we have shown some progress through blind luck we were going to get a win or 2. I would like to hear a clear concise summary of the Oates system. I have no idea.

I didn't like some of the early things he did, rotating 7 day in game 1 for instance. I didn't like some of the lines he constructed but I can say that of all coaches. I did like that he let Ovi get a few games at LW to reaffirm his old move is still doubled or tripled every time. So he has made a few improvements that may have helped us get some wins. He appears to have set plays on the faceoff, and the PP has gotten better.

I feel like he is dragging his skates getting a good partner for Carlson though. He has so many options at LD but refuses to try Hammer, but that is probably a directive from above.

See posts above ^^^

BTCG 02-20-2013 07:36 AM

So... talking this over with Terry this morning before she headed out to work:

While the box is often just an offenceive system, I've seen coaches use it on both ends of the ice.

I'd wager the thinking is, if the kids cannot move that well in their opponents zone, they're gonna be no better in their own.

Now, on the pro level, with todays game, Adam might be on to something. Positional hockey will help greatly when it comes to shot-blocking.

g00n 02-20-2013 09:14 AM

I think those are more set plays and roster strategies than a "system".

In general, it's supposed to be a "hybrid", which I would also call "balanced" or "normal" in the sense that offense and defense are equally important. And we know the d-men are supposed to activate and pinch more.

Beyond that, what do we actually know? We knew DH went with a kind of "man to man" defense that often created massive confusion. Oates seems to have gone back to more of a zone defense (thank god). And players seem to be more prone to take shots instead of just trying to feed the same 2 or 3 players all game long (the PP excepted).

Other than that, what is there? What's the neutral zone and forecheck policy? It seems like an active forecheck and not a trap, correct? Is there a difference in spacing or dump vs carry in philosophy? Are there set plays and standing orders for positional rotations?

Or are they just going out there with some general concepts like "support" and "work the cycle" and allowing their years of hockey experience to carry it out on the fly?

Halpysback 02-20-2013 09:26 AM

Literally half the team's problems could be solved if someone drilled one touch passing into their heads. Too bad we have a grand total of like 4 players skilled enough for it.

txpd 02-20-2013 09:34 AM

i am living in the past. the grass is always greener thing. 12-2-1. the only reason that is not the best record in the league is because chicago hasnt lost in regulation yet. was he really so bad?

NobodyBeatsTheWiz 02-20-2013 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txpd (Post 60090993)
i am living in the past. the grass is always greener thing. 12-2-1. the only reason that is not the best record in the league is because chicago hasnt lost in regulation yet. was he really so bad?

Nope. One of the better coaches in the league.

He was a scapegoat here.


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