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-   -   Revisiting the Andy Mcdonald trade (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1355311)

Ducks 02-20-2013 07:39 AM

Revisiting the Andy Mcdonald trade
 
It still hurts. Although this year with Bobby doing a good job at 2C and Holland/Bonino stepping up it feels like the first season in quite a few years that we aren't completely suffering from the Mcdonald/Weight deal.

God. I still can't believe Burke made that move...then bolted to Toronto shortly after.

The Sunshine Duke 02-20-2013 08:06 AM

Yeah, Burke left like a chump. But at least he got canned before his work in Toronto paid off.

Vipers31 02-20-2013 08:27 AM

Why do we need to revisit it? It's brought up constantly. Sure, it ended up bad, but there were certain circumstances at the time. MacDonald played some of the worst hockey of his career those months being without Selanne (well, we did learn that he wasn't entirely unable to produce without him... ;) ), we had to make tagging room to get Niedermayer back, and there weren't a ton of options. It's not pretty, but it wasn't the easiest of hands to play for Burke.

The Sunshine Duke 02-20-2013 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 60087571)
Why do we need to revisit it? It's brought up constantly. Sure, it ended up bad, but there were certain circumstances at the time. MacDonald played some of the worst hockey of his career those months being without Selanne (well, we did learn that he wasn't entirely unable to produce without him... ;) ), we had to make tagging room to get Niedermayer back, and there weren't a ton of options. It's not pretty, but it wasn't the easiest of hands to play for Burke.

No, it wasn't the easiest of hands to play. But Burke took the lemons Nieds and Teemu gave him with their staycations and squeezed them into everyone's eyes, and then weaseled off to Toronto. Not a hero's exit, even though he did some great things here.

Vipers31 02-20-2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damn Skippy (Post 60089481)
No, it wasn't the easiest of hands to play. But Burke took the lemons Nieds and Teemu gave him with their staycations and squeezed them into everyone's eyes, and then weaseled off to Toronto. Not a hero's exit, even though he did some great things here.

I don't think he really weaseled out of here, given what that kind of characterisation entails IMO. I think he played with open cards with the owners who simply respected his wish to move. But otherwise, yeah, I don't have any issues with recognizing the shape he left us in, and that deal - while difficult given the situation - sure as hell didn't help. I'm all for a balanced review of Burke's time here.

snarktacular 02-20-2013 11:09 AM

I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

JabbaJabba 02-20-2013 11:09 AM

I'm all in for signing McDonald in the offseason. Just think about the possible McDonald-Ryan-Selšnne -line!

DucksLove 02-20-2013 11:20 AM

Andy :D

That would make me very happy to.have him back

Him and Leclerc were my favorite back in the day

Lord Flashheart 02-20-2013 11:51 AM

Further proof that schedule where one has 5 days break, then back-to-back and then 17 games in March is inherently ********.

TheJoeMan 02-20-2013 12:00 PM

Are we really going to rehash a trade from over five years ago? While we're at it why don't we revisit the Selanne trade? Or how about the firing of Ron Wilson? I know, trading Tugnut in favor of Hebert. That one has been gnawing at me for a while.

Seriously though hindsight is always 20/20 and trades like this always look bad after the fact. But at the time it needed to happen. Yes signing Bertuzzi was a bad move and the almost-retirement from Scotty and Teemu handcuffed us bad. But Burke just won a cup and wasn't about to be handcuffed by not doing anything on July 1st. How could he know Bertuzzi was going to be so crappy or Scotty and Teemu actually had some more game in them or that Andy was going to have such a bad start to his season? Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.

Johnny Caravella 02-20-2013 01:05 PM

Yeah, in hindsight it hurt. But all of the aftermath was a direct result of winning the Cup. And I'm not giving back the Cup. :) :stanley:

Ducks 02-20-2013 01:11 PM

I'm surprised by how negative some of you are being about discussing a trade that had major consequences for the team. If you don't like the topic feel free not to participate, nobody is forcing you. There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about the topic though.

Ducks 02-20-2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarktacular (Post 60092435)
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

I agree with all of your points, especially the Bertuzzi signing. I thought Schneider played well while he was here, maybe expectations were too high for him coming in expected by a lot of people to be Niedermayer's replacement. Getting rid of Mcdonald after half a season where the entire team was underperforming just felt like the wrong answer.

HanSolo 02-20-2013 01:53 PM

Andy Mac wasn't scoring. He needed Teemu to be successful. Honestly, right before the trade Andy Mac was playing like Cogliano when he first started here (not this season's Cogliano). Maybe even worse than that. He just didn't know what to do to create opportunities. Weight was a bad idea, but McDonald was almost just as bad at the time. Carlyle probably thought he couldn't get him our of his funk, plus wasn't there an issue with cap?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarktacular (Post 60092435)
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

:nod:
well said.

Disgruntled Goat 02-20-2013 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJoeMan (Post 60094879)
Are we really going to rehash a trade from over five years ago? While we're at it why don't we revisit the Selanne trade? Or how about the firing of Ron Wilson? I know, trading Tugnut in favor of Hebert. That one has been gnawing at me for a while.

Seriously though hindsight is always 20/20 and trades like this always look bad after the fact. But at the time it needed to happen. Yes signing Bertuzzi was a bad move and the almost-retirement from Scotty and Teemu handcuffed us bad. But Burke just won a cup and wasn't about to be handcuffed by not doing anything on July 1st. How could he know Bertuzzi was going to be so crappy or Scotty and Teemu actually had some more game in them or that Andy was going to have such a bad start to his season? Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.

I'd like to revisit the Patrick Traverse for Samuel Pahlsson trade. Hugely underrated trade :nod:

The Sunshine Duke 02-20-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipers31 (Post 60090107)
I don't think he really weaseled out of here, given what that kind of characterisation entails IMO. I think he played with open cards with the owners who simply respected his wish to move. But otherwise, yeah, I don't have any issues with recognizing the shape he left us in, and that deal - while difficult given the situation - sure as hell didn't help. I'm all for a balanced review of Burke's time here.

It fits comfortably within my definition of weaseling. YMMV.

Hockey Duckie 02-20-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducks (Post 60098915)
I'm surprised by how negative some of you are being about discussing a trade that had major consequences for the team. If you don't like the topic feel free not to participate, nobody is forcing you. There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about the topic though.

If you don't like the response, then you don't have to make the topic. The topic also did not state, "Let's take a positive revisit of the Andy McDonald trade."
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducks (Post 60098915)
There's really no reason to come in here and make negative comments about other posters though.

There. Fixed.

Anyhow, talking about this is like talking about an ex that kinda screwed up a part of your life a while back. When I read your topic I immediately envision Big Bert and Schneider. You can see the accident that is about to occur, but all you can do is to close your eyes, turn your head away, and absorb the fecal consequences once stupid idea connects with long term fiscal responsibility and lack of prospect growth. It's almost as asinine as the notion of "Spending is the path for growth and prosperity." when there's no monies in the till and no new jobs being developed. Oh wait... it's the exact same problem.

Kevin Forbes 02-20-2013 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarktacular (Post 60092435)
I don't begrudge the McDonald trade. It kind of needed to happen based on the circumstances. There weren't a lot of other options once it got to that.

Where Burke screwed up is getting to that point.

1) Signing Bertuzzi vs a lower level insurance replacement for Selanne
2) Giving Bertuzzi a 1-year contract
3) Giving Bertuzzi less (he didn't really deserve that much coming off his season)
4) Signing Schneider vs a lower level insurance replacement for Niedermayer
5) Giving Schneider a 1-year contract
6) Revamping the offense to dump-and-chase on both lines vs having the thunder and lightning setup... putting McDonald in a position to fail
7) Demanding an ultimatum from Selanne or Niedermayer

Any one of those actions could have prevented the cap/tagging hell they ended up in. Basically Burke was gambling that Niedermayer was retiring, and he worked the budget that way. When Niedermayer returned, he ended up like 4 mill over.

Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.

The Sunshine Duke 02-20-2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes (Post 60106253)
Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.

Agreed on that last bit. Burke (and later Murray) played Niedermayer and Selanne just so. You have to do what it takes to get em back, if they can be gotten back. The fault for that lies on those individuals.

Ducks 02-20-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie (Post 60105573)
If you don't like the response, then you don't have to make the topic...

So, you're saying I should read minds? Also, kudos for rephrasing my comment to criticize me for asking people to refrain from "this is a stupid topic" type comments. You see the irony here right?

In any case, I'm enjoying the actual discussion that's going on here about the trade. 2C has been one of our biggest struggles for the last 5 years due to the shortsightedness of the andy mac trade imo.

snarktacular 02-20-2013 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes (Post 60106253)
Regarding #1 & #2
I remember shortly after this trade went down making a detailed post about the other options that were available on the market that summer and how much they went for. The Ducks were looking for the closest thing to a top line forward and a top pairing defenseman and were willing to accept a top six forward and a top four defenseman. There wasn't a lot available for the price point Anaheim had available (remember this was at the same time as the Penner fiasco).

Regarding #7
I'm convinced that if this happened, the Ducks would not have gotten the extra 2.5 seasons from Niedermayer nor the extra 4.5 (and counting) seasons from Selanne.

No there wasn't a whole lot else available. And those were some big holes.

But my thing is Burke went and got pretty much the best replacements available. I believe Schneider was #2 in terms of offensive defensemen (only behind Rafalski). And Bert was risky, but he was still moderately high in terms of potential. All while knowing those two might come back. And if they did come back, he would have been screwed. So you basically have to weigh the chance they will return, and budget accordingly.

I think of it this way. Weigh things out according to probabilities. Take a hypothetical situation. You have a star player, Niederlanne in the same situation. He makes 10 million dollars (and is still a bargain at that price). You then estimate the chance he returns. Say it's 60%. So you only go out and offer for a ~4-5 million dollar player as a replacement.

What Burke did was go out and spend 10 million dollars for a replacement. Then Niederlanne returns and he's all capped out. I don't think he had proper contingency planning.



If he provides an ultimatum, there is a good chance they leave the team. But the point is it prevents a big cap cluster**** like we ended up in. My list isn't necessarily a list of things I would recommend to do, just lots of reasonable actions that would have prevented the McDonald trade.

jepjepjoo 02-20-2013 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJoeMan (Post 60094879)
Need I remind you though that that team was the best defensive team we ever had and we happened to finish fourth in the conference. But all anyone can remember is Dallas getting the better of us in the playoffs.

But it's been five years and I think it's safe to safe we've moved on from that trade.

Need I remind you that the Ducks were 27-22-7 before Selanne came back and 20-5-1 with Selanne. They wouldn't have made it to the playoffs at the pace they were playing without Selanne and Nieds.

Ducksgo* 02-20-2013 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducks (Post 60087059)
It still hurts. Although this year with Bobby doing a good job at 2C and Holland/Bonino stepping up it feels like the first season in quite a few years that we aren't completely suffering from the Mcdonald/Weight deal.

God. I still can't believe Burke made that move...then bolted to Toronto shortly after.

Yupp Dead Weight for Andy McDonald :facepalm:

snarktacular 02-20-2013 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducksgo (Post 60115721)
Yupp Dead Weight for Andy McDonald :facepalm:

Hey don't sell the trade short. We also got Michael Birner. That completely changes things.

Getz2perry 02-20-2013 07:59 PM

why you got to bring up bad time :'(

still my favorite nhl player tho


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