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-   -   Blues Trade Proposals Part 4 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1355813)

EastonBlues22 02-20-2013 05:18 PM

Blues Trade Proposals Part 4
 
Part 3

Continue here.

bleedblue1223 02-20-2013 05:23 PM

So realistically, should we go after anything else than just a defender to solidify the bottom pairing if Russell or Redden don't improve?

Mid pick and prospect for MacDonald would be my preference if those 2 don't pick it up. That is if he is made available.

Halak Ness Monster 02-20-2013 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketNines (Post 60117181)
Two things.

One, saying "Cole has been below average lately" and the like are blanket statements that carry little weight. Cole has easily been a stronger, more solid, better option than vets Redden and Russell and "anyone should see that." I feel fine with Cole in there, personally.

So I lose either way. I say Cole has been below average lately and it is a blanket statement. I actually point out 3-4 awful plays in a quick second and I'm cherry picking. I don't have all day to go back and watch the games and make a detailed list. If you've been watching you've probably seen it. I'm sorry.

Should I point to his inconsistent ice time despite playing with Alex Pietrangelo? Why is playing 14:59 last night or 16:34 against Calgary? Even 18:57 against Vancouver isn't much with his two-three shifts in OT(one was a minute long to start OT and was actually a great shift).

Also, saying that he has been better than Redden and Russell doesn't make his play better. Redden and Russell have been disappointing this year but that doesn't make Cole's play better.

Quote:

Two, there is a clear difference between arguing Cole isn't perfectly suited to the top line duty at this point in his career and the Cole sucks type of comments. You really should not make me have to explain this. For whatever reason, you took taking issue with "Cole sucks" sentiment to be the same as taking issue with sentiment that he's not in the correct spot on the roster. I don't know why you got defensive like that, but you did and you should have really understood the difference without going down this road of dispute.
This line of yours had a lot to do with it: "Nitpicking individual moments which is done with every player on the roster ≠ "Ian Cole is terrible," "Ian Cole shouldn't be playing" and the like."

I pointed out plays where Cole has struggled. I took it that your nitpicking comment was aimed at me since no one else used any examples today. That line was actually used in reply to one of my posts so it had to be aimed at me. How else did you think I'd take it???

You "should have really understood" why I responded the way I did. Especially when you combine the above line and this other line: "Hating on Cole has been a way for me to help understand who knows hockey and who doesn't." That's extremely rude.

bleedblue1223 02-20-2013 05:31 PM

I just don't understand how some fans blow up some players mistakes and don't bring up mistakes of other players. And no,I'm not talking about Russell or Redden.

ExJbeck 02-20-2013 05:35 PM

I disagree completely that Cole has been below average. Has been nearly as consistent as Petro so there is that. I've been saying all along that he just needs playing time. I do agree that at this point Cole shouldn't be top pairing, but it is what it is. I firmly believe that having any 3 of Russell, Jackman, Cole, or Redden on this ice during the playoffs is not Winning us a cup this year so there is that. I'm all for a trade that would add more stability to the top of our d-core.

Halak Ness Monster 02-20-2013 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastonBlues
He's there because he's outplaying Russell and Redden.

Completely agree. My original point still stands, we need to get a legit partner for Pietrangelo. Cole's grade is independent of Redden and Russell. They shouldn't be brought up at all in this discussion. Their poor play doesn't change my feelings about wanting to add a good vet.

Get a vet to play with Petro at the deadline and put Cole with Polak. Let him gain experience on the 3rd pairing like a normal raw youngster.

Quote:

If someone else was playing well enough to eat into that ice time, they would be getting it. Hitchcock isn't a slave to his pairings. If he didn't trust Cole to be getting those defensive zone starts and that much ice time (relative to the other options he has), he would be spreading it out situationally to those he did trust to do the job.
It is hard to agree when Hitchcock threw Wade Redden, a shaky d-man who has been in the AHL the past two years, onto the top pairing with Pietrangelo to start the year.

IMO, he has no desire to break up Shattenkirk and Jackman. Jackman is playing the best of all of our defenders but we've tried Jax with Petro and for whatever reason it doesn't work. Shatty and Jax works and that is why they are still together IMO.

Quote:

Burrows made a good play in (a lot of) space during 4-on-4 hockey at the end of OT. That one play was hardly indicative of Cole's overall performance that game, which was fairly good against a pretty touch matchup.
The top pairing plays against tough matchups.

Quote:

Try making a list of guys who haven't made a bad play or taken a bad penalty this year. I'll bet it's really short, if you can make one at all. Based on his experience and assignments, you would be expecting Cole to make a lot of mistakes if he was truly playing poorly. He's not.
So I can't make a statement to describe his overall play and I can't point out individual plays.

How am I supposed to back up my point??? Stats? Ok...see his inconsistent ice time. If he is playing as well as you guys say then why is he playing 14:59 last night?

Quote:

Not really, but we don't always get what we want. On the list of things wrong with this team at the moment, Cole's play is pretty far down the list. Based on what fans are saying, you would think it would be near the top.
Agree to disagree. Armstrong talked in the offseason about wanting to find a top 4 d-man. I doubt Cole's 10 games has changed that sentiment. Especially when he is playing less than 15 minutes in some games.

ExJbeck 02-20-2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster (Post 60119135)
.



It is hard to agree when Hitchcock threw Wade Redden, a shaky d-man who has been in the AHL the past two years, onto the top pairing with Pietrangelo to start the year.

IMO, he has no desire to break up Shattenkirk and Jackman. Jackman is playing the best of all of our defenders but we've tried Jax with Petro and for whatever reason it doesn't work. Shatty and Jax works and that is why they are still together IMO.

I just want to make sure you know Hitchcock has broke up the Jackman Shatty pair the last two games. It has been Redden-Shatty, Jax-Polak.

TheOrganist 02-20-2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExJbeck (Post 60118931)
I disagree completely that Cole has been below average. Has been nearly as consistent as Petro so there is that. I've been saying all along that he just needs playing time. I do agree that at this point Cole shouldn't be top pairing, but it is what it is. I firmly believe that having any 3 of Russell, Jackman, Cole, or Redden on this ice during the playoffs is not Winning us a cup this year so there is that. I'm all for a trade that would add more stability to the top of our d-core.

This is the most accurate thing posted in this debate.

Cole's play is magnified right now because of where he's spotted in the lineup. He's facing some awfully tough competition as Petro's partner and there are going to be nights where his decision making is a step behind the world class players he's playing against and he doesn't look good.

Trial by fire, really and on his 24th birthday (which is tomorrow), I'm all for seeing how our former first rounder responds to the opportunity. Even though he's slightly over his head right now, if we see some significant progress in his game, it will give us a much clearer indication of his long-term potential.

I think most fans were ready for that before the season, anyway. I certainly would certainly rather see that than have a 48 year old, severely diminished Wade Redden man that role.

Cole will have some big time growing pains this year but he's been relatively steady (with definitely some unfortunate moments mixed in, like the entire lineup to this point) and is filling a gaping hole in our roster right now. I have limited expectations currently but want to see some tangible growth and improvement that says the kid has a future.

Is this the ideal situation for a team with Cup aspirations? Of course not. And the situation could change tomorrow. But right now, Cole is the best option on the top pair and it will be interesting to watch how he responds to the challenge if he stays in this currently role for any length of time.

Halak Ness Monster 02-20-2013 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExJbeck (Post 60119275)
I just want to make sure you know Hitchcock has broke up the Jackman Shatty pair the last two games. It has been Redden-Shatty, Jax-Polak.

Hadn't noticed because I've missed the first period of the last two games(missed the starting lineups) and didn't really pay much attention to see if a pairing that has always been together was finally broken up. Does that take away from my point about us needing a better partner for Pietrangelo, though?

I still don't think Hitch has much desire to pair Petro and Jax again. Besides those two not playing well together in the past, that leaves our bottom 2 pairings pretty weak.

STLBLUES44 02-20-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 60118251)
So realistically, should we go after anything else than just a defender to solidify the bottom pairing if Russell or Redden don't improve?

Mid pick and prospect for MacDonald would be my preference if those 2 don't pick it up. That is if he is made available.

it would be awesome to have both Andy M(a)cdonalds

Bluesnatic27 02-20-2013 06:58 PM

I can honestly say that I was the biggest person against Cole. I never liked how he just made some bone-headed mistakes defensively and didn't have the offensive skills to make up for it. But this year, I can say with a clear conscience that I was wrong about him, and I've been quite impressed with his play. He's made huge strides since the last few years and looks like he belongs in the NHL. In fact, He seems to be making smarter defensive plays than Pietrangelo this year, and that says A LOT for Cole. He's quickly becoming one of my favorite defenseman.

Lifetimebluesfan 02-20-2013 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STLBLUES44 (Post 60122385)
it would be awesome to have both Andy M(a)cdonalds

Russel, Grachev, and a 3rd?

HooliganX2 02-20-2013 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lifetimebluesfan (Post 60126651)
Russel, Grachev, and a 3rd?

The Isles are a cheap team MacDonald has a cheap contract there is nothing reasonable that would pry him away from the Isles.

Robb_K 02-20-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesnatic27 (Post 60124273)
I can honestly say that I was the biggest person against Cole. I never liked how he just made some bone-headed mistakes defensively and didn't have the offensive skills to make up for it. But this year, I can say with a clear conscience that I was wrong about him, and I've been quite impressed with his play. He's made huge strides since the last few years and looks like he belongs in the NHL. In fact, He seems to be making smarter defensive plays than Pietrangelo this year, and that says A LOT for Cole. He's quickly becoming one of my favorite defenseman.

I agree with this. He has calmed down and added poise, and, thus time to think before making a (proper) decision. I would keep him now, as with his size and upside potential, he could end up as a very valuable part of a Blues long-term winning team.

Halak Ness Monster 02-20-2013 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb_K (Post 60133109)
I agree with this. He has calmed down and added poise, and, thus time to think before making a (proper) decision. I would keep him now, as with his size and upside potential, he could end up as a very valuable part of a Blues long-term winning team.

He is definitely a keeper. He will get better with experience. He is very inconsistent right now. He started out the year strong. Lately he has struggled.

Ideally we can add a moderately skilled vet to play with Petro and put Cole down on the 3rd pairing with Polak.

The goal is to win the Cup. I'm not sure we can with Cole on the top pairing and Russell/Redden on the 3rd.

I HIGHLY DOUBT Armstrong has wavered on his desire to add a top 4 d-man because of Cole's play through 10 games. He may have wavered on his willingness to trade Cole but he likely still wants that top 4 d-man to pair with Pietrangelo.

Robb_K 02-20-2013 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster (Post 60140527)
He is definitely a keeper. He will get better with experience. He is very inconsistent right now. He started out the year strong. Lately he has struggled.

Ideally we can add a moderately skilled vet to play with Petro and put Cole down on the 3rd pairing with Polak.

The goal is to win the Cup. I'm not sure we can with Cole on the top pairing and Russell/Redden on the 3rd.

I HIGHLY DOUBT Armstrong has wavered on his desire to add a top 4 d-man because of Cole's play through 10 games. He may have wavered on his willingness to trade Cole but he likely still wants that top 4 d-man to pair with Pietrangelo.

I don't want Cole to pair with Pietrangeo on the first shift. And I don't want Redden and Russell as the regular 3rd shift. I'm sure that Armstrong has kept his eyes open to jump on a trade to bolster the defence. No good opportunities have occurred yet. I hope one materialises before the trade deadline.

PerryTurnbullfan 02-21-2013 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb_K (Post 60144063)
I don't want Cole to pair with Pietrangeo on the first shift. And I don't want Redden and Russell as the regular 3rd shift. I'm sure that Armstrong has kept his eyes open to jump on a trade to bolster the defence. No good opportunities have occurred yet. I hope one materialises before the trade deadline.

ditto...

Halak Ness Monster 02-21-2013 11:00 AM

I have to give credit when it's deserved...

Ian Cole played a strong game against Colorado last night. He didn't really stand out which is a great thing for a young, raw defender playing with Pietrangelo.

That said...Colorado isn't good. Matt Duchene is an absolute stud and PA Paranteau is slick but this team got outskated by a Blues team that was on their last leg. They've just got too much talent on IR. I can't believe we lost. Varlamov had a great game.

Mike Liut 02-21-2013 11:44 AM

Could Rattie + 1st rounder net a top pairing LHD? I would add if needed.
Moving Cole down to 3rd paring and adding a LHD with Petro, improves two sets of dman.

simon in canada 02-21-2013 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Liut (Post 60164199)
Could Rattie + 1st rounder net a top pairing LHD? I would add if needed.
Moving Cole down to 3rd paring and adding a LHD with Petro, improves two sets of dman.

As much as I dislike the idea of giving up our 1st in such a good draft year, I can't help wondering, if Calgary continues to slide, how much it would take to get Giordano from them? Could Rattie, our 1st and Russell do it?

JustOneB4IDie 02-21-2013 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Liut (Post 60164199)
Could Rattie + 1st rounder net a top pairing LHD? I would add if needed.
Moving Cole down to 3rd paring and adding a LHD with Petro, improves two sets of dman.

Armstrong does not seem to want to part with core players and/or assets, prospects and adding hefty contracts to the Payroll for the small market low revenue earning Blues. It is what it is.I for one don't see it changing. It's been over 2 years now since that Blockbuster Trade with Colorado so there you go.

PocketNines 02-21-2013 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster (Post 60118287)
So I lose either way. I say Cole has been below average lately and it is a blanket statement. I actually point out 3-4 awful plays in a quick second and I'm cherry picking. I don't have all day to go back and watch the games and make a detailed list. If you've been watching you've probably seen it. I'm sorry.

Should I point to his inconsistent ice time despite playing with Alex Pietrangelo? Why is playing 14:59 last night or 16:34 against Calgary? Even 18:57 against Vancouver isn't much with his two-three shifts in OT(one was a minute long to start OT and was actually a great shift).

Also, saying that he has been better than Redden and Russell doesn't make his play better. Redden and Russell have been disappointing this year but that doesn't make Cole's play better.



This line of yours had a lot to do with it: "Nitpicking individual moments which is done with every player on the roster ≠ "Ian Cole is terrible," "Ian Cole shouldn't be playing" and the like."

I pointed out plays where Cole has struggled. I took it that your nitpicking comment was aimed at me since no one else used any examples today. That line was actually used in reply to one of my posts so it had to be aimed at me. How else did you think I'd take it???

You "should have really understood" why I responded the way I did. Especially when you combine the above line and this other line: "Hating on Cole has been a way for me to help understand who knows hockey and who doesn't." That's extremely rude.

I skimmed this. You're waaaaaaayy too sensitive. It's simple. If you "hate on Cole" and single him out as a lousy player, one who shouldn't be in the NHL, then yes, it helps me filter who knows hockey. If you hold the opinion that he's a lousy player who shouldn't be in the NHL, then yes, you could take it as aimed at you personally, who in no way were in my mind when I wrote what I wrote. I was reacting to Easton's post. If you don't hold that opinion then lose the martyr complex, ok?

CarvinSigX 02-21-2013 04:04 PM

If everyone was doing their job, Cole would be doing much better.

Halak Ness Monster 02-21-2013 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketNines (Post 60177529)
I skimmed this. You're waaaaaaayy too sensitive. It's simple. If you "hate on Cole" and single him out as a lousy player, one who shouldn't be in the NHL, then yes, it helps me filter who knows hockey. If you hold the opinion that he's a lousy player who shouldn't be in the NHL, then yes, you could take it as aimed at you personally, who in no way were in my mind when I wrote what I wrote. I was reacting to Easton's post. If you don't hold that opinion then lose the martyr complex, ok?

Too sensitive? Martyr complex? I just don't understand.

I'd rather stay on topic than try to play doctor so I'll cease and desist from this discussion.

Apologies to the forum. I didn't want this discussion to be about me but rather Ian Cole.

Lifetimebluesfan 02-21-2013 09:40 PM

Would any of you guys consider trading Perron for another center and a number 4 or 5 dman?

Perron and Russel to Washington for Laich and Poti/Hamrilik?

What would you guys think? Please don't flame me, this was just a little thought I had


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