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-   -   The Oilers aren't being built properly (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1358717)

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 08:52 PM

The Oilers aren't being built properly
 
I have an opinion that I'm sure won't be too popular here. I know HFOil fans and how they react to threads like this. I've been on that end of it at times and now I'm the one starting it. Here it is.

The media describes our team as "exciting", "fun to watch" etc.. We are not fun to watch. Our team is built to be run and gun, offensive, high scoring hockey and we are 28th in scoring along with trap teams like Minnesota and Nashville. Fifteen of our 38 goals have been 5 on 5. The next highest, San Jose, has 23 in one less game played. Pathetic numbers for a team many claim to have the best offensive core in the league. We can't just wait for a PP and take advantage of it. That's not how you are going to win. Unfortunately that's how our team is being built right now. We are unbelievably skilled but we are small and soft. We aren't a team that wins battles in the corners and drives to the net. That is why we can't score 5 on 5 but we can score on the PP at will with possession. Don't get me wrong, I think we have made the right decisions with our 1st overall picks the past 3 years, but for those who think we're going to be a a contender with a top heavy lineup as we have are out to lunch.

I look at our team in 2006 that made that amazing run to the finals. If Roloson doesn't get injured, very good possibility it's another Stanely Cup for the Oilers. Why was that team so dominant in the playoffs? Why was LA so dominant last playoff season? Many reasons; Both teams were dominant on faceoffs. They gained possession off faceoffs all the time and started offensive chances like that. When they didn't have the puck they were so dominant physically that they were able to gain the puck back like that. THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY HOCKEY, AND WIN. The Oilers are so small and so soft and they can't win a faceoff for the life of them so they are always chasing the puck and waiting for the opposing team to miss their chance rather than forcing them off the puck before that chance occurs. We have no one on our team like the '06 Torres, Stoll, Smyth kind of players.

I see Oilers fans making comparisons to Detroit when someone says soft puck possession teams can't be successful. Detroit had one of the best defenseman that's ever played the game, so comparing us to be Detroit is simply not fair. Look at Detroit now. They lost Lidstrom and now they are battling for a playoff spot just as we are. They still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Brunner.. all these awesome offensive players like the Oilers have. Detroit has relied on Lidstrom for years and now we are seeing the results of it.

I agree that you can't just have a full team of grinders and no skill. Same thing as we have right now, skill and no grinders. We need balance. Our team in '06 had balance. It had gritty hard forecheckers like Torres, Smyth, Moreau, Stoll, Pisani but it had skill in Hemsky, Horcoff, Samsonov, Bergeron. LA had the same sort of thing going on.

This season has not been what I expected it to be no matter how close we are to a playoff spot. It worries me that a team that's supposed to be a puck possession offensive team is now turning into a defensive team that's very easy to play against. I don't think our team is built properly and I don't think it will go anywhere in the playoffs until we make major changes.

In a salary cap world maybe trading a Yakupov would be for the best in the long run.

- Sorry if this thread seems a little all over the place. I basically put all my thoughts in at once.

Jimmi Jenkins 02-23-2013 09:02 PM

I will take this team over a team with it's best players being Mike Comrie, Mike York, Ryan Smyth or an Old Petr Nedved ANY TIME.

For **** sakes some of these key players aren't even into their early 20s

Edit: The time for a team of over achieving plugs is over.

Burtch66 02-23-2013 09:06 PM

This is like saying an unfinished House isn't built correctly.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins (Post 60346625)
I will take this team over a team with it's best players being Mike Comrie, Mike York, Ryan Smyth or an Old Petr Nedved ANY TIME.

For **** sakes some of these key players aren't even into their early 20s

Not the point of the thread at all.

syz 02-23-2013 09:10 PM

Problem with all of these ideas is that the Oilers haven't really been playing poorly 5 on 5. All those super soft kids have generally been winning in possession every game, but they're going out and shooting 2-5%.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syz (Post 60347513)
Problem with all of these ideas is that the Oilers haven't really been playing poorly 5 on 5. All those super soft kids have generally been winning in possession every game, but they're going out and shooting 2-5%.

Only lately that would be the case but fair enough.

Burtch66 02-23-2013 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syz (Post 60347513)
Problem with all of these ideas is that the Oilers haven't really been playing poorly 5 on 5. All those super soft kids have generally been winning in possession every game, but they're going out and shooting 2-5%.

^^This

raab 02-23-2013 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Moss (Post 60345329)
I have an opinion that I'm sure won't be too popular here. I know HFOil fans and how they react to threads like this. I've been on that end of it at times and now I'm the one starting it. Here it is.

The media describes our team as "exciting", "fun to watch" etc.. We are not fun to watch. Our team is built to be run and gun, offensive, high scoring hockey and we are 28th in scoring along with trap teams like Minnesota and Nashville. Fifteen of our 38 goals have been 5 on 5. The next highest, San Jose, has 23 in one less game played. Pathetic numbers for a team many claim to have the best offensive core in the league. We can't just wait for a PP and take advantage of it. That's not how you are going to win. Unfortunately that's how our team is being built right now. We are unbelievably skilled but we are small and soft. We aren't a team that wins battles in the corners and drives to the net. That is why we can't score 5 on 5 but we can score on the PP at will with possession. Don't get me wrong, I think we have made the right decisions with our 1st overall picks the past 3 years, but for those who think we're going to be a a contender with a top heavy lineup as we have are out to lunch.

I look at our team in 2006 that made that amazing run to the finals. If Roloson doesn't get injured, very good possibility it's another Stanely Cup for the Oilers. Why was that team so dominant in the playoffs? Why was LA so dominant last playoff season? Many reasons; Both teams were dominant on faceoffs. They gained possession off faceoffs all the time and started offensive chances like that. When they didn't have the puck they were so dominant physically that they were able to gain the puck back like that. THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY HOCKEY, AND WIN. The Oilers are so small and so soft and they can't win a faceoff for the life of them so they are always chasing the puck and waiting for the opposing team to miss their chance rather than forcing them off the puck before that chance occurs. We have no one on our team like the '06 Torres, Stoll, Smyth kind of players.

I see Oilers fans making comparisons to Detroit when someone says soft puck possession teams can't be successful. Detroit had one of the best defenseman that's ever played the game, so comparing us to be Detroit is simply not fair. Look at Detroit now. They lost Lidstrom and now they are battling for a playoff spot just as we are. They still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Brunner.. all these awesome offensive players like the Oilers have. Detroit has relied on Lidstrom for years and now we are seeing the results of it.

I agree that you can't just have a full team of grinders and no skill. Same thing as we have right now, skill and no grinders. We need balance. Our team in '06 had balance. It had gritty hard forecheckers like Torres, Smyth, Moreau, Stoll, Pisani but it had skill in Hemsky, Horcoff, Samsonov, Bergeron. LA had the same sort of thing going on.

This season has not been what I expected it to be no matter how close we are to a playoff spot. It worries me that a team that's supposed to be a puck possession offensive team is now turning into a defensive team that's very easy to play against. I don't think our team is built properly and I don't think it will go anywhere in the playoffs until we make major changes.

In a salary cap world maybe trading a Yakupov would be for the best in the long run.

- Sorry if this thread seems a little all over the place. I basically put all my thoughts in at once.

Hard to be a puck possession team when all our dmen besides Schultz handle the puck like a hand grenade.

Burtch66 02-23-2013 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Moss (Post 60347667)
Only lately that would be the case but fair enough.

Actually that's been the case all season long. it was our bottom 9 that couldn't control the puck in the early part of the season.

Ice Whole 02-23-2013 09:26 PM

You don't trade a guy like yakupov. Hemsky and gagner get traded for more size in the top 6 before trading yak. The biggest problem with this team is our bottom isn't very effective. We don't have much grit, size or skill. If we had guys like say glencross and Stoll, our bottom 6 would be a lot better. Also, we need another top 4 puck moving defenseman. It may seem like a lot but these pieces are not that hard to acquire.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynamic Duo 934 (Post 60349211)
You don't trade a guy like yakupov. Hemsky and gagner get traded for more size in the top 6 before trading yak. The biggest problem with this team is our bottom isn't very effective. We don't have much grit, size or skill. If we had guys like say glencross and Stoll, our bottom 6 would be a lot better. Also, we need another top 4 puck moving defenseman. It may seem like a lot but these pieces are not that hard to acquire.

Well Hemsky is a given to be traded within the next year or two. Nuge and Gagner is a great 1-2 punch for the future if Gagner keeps his play up. We need a useful bottom 6 but we need guys who can play in our top 6 and bring more than skill. We need more Taylor Hall's really. Boston has Lucic/Horton, LA has Brown/Richards...

Yakupov would also net way more and bring in that Brown kind of player. Gagner/Hemsky won't.

Insta 02-23-2013 09:50 PM

The average age of the Oilers top 6 is 22. Let that sink in for a minute. It would be lower but old-man Hemsky brings it up.

The Nuge 02-23-2013 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insta (Post 60351451)
The average age of the Oilers top 6 is 22. Let that sink in for a minute. It would be lower but old-man Hemsky brings it up.

better sub Paajarvi in to get it down to a more reasonable number eh

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 09:58 PM

I don't care how young our team is. The fact is we need more balance in our team and we are never going to win a cup until we get more of it in our lineup. These kids are never going to turn into the physical specimens we need up front. Does anyone disagree with this? The evidence is there. Boston, LA, Edmonton, Chicago have all had major success in the playoffs by playing like this. Pittsburgh and Detroit won the Cup because they had revolutionary players like Crosby, Malkin and Lidstrom, which we will not have anytime soon, yet our team is on the road to being built like them. Chicago won the cup with Byfuglien, Bolland and Ladd being HUGE parts of their run. Once Buff and Ladd were traded they started to regress. Now players like Bickell and Stalberg are filling in those wholes they've been missing the past few years and they are having success again. I don't think Chicago is as good as they have showed for the record.

Just my 2 cents.

Jimmi Jenkins 02-23-2013 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Moss (Post 60352037)
I don't care how young our team is. The fact is we need more balance in our team and we are never going to win a cup until we get more of it in our lineup.
Just my 2 cents.

No ****ing kidding eh?

Ice Whole 02-23-2013 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Moss (Post 60350783)
Well Hemsky is a given to be traded within the next year or two. Nuge and Gagner is a great 1-2 punch for the future if Gagner keeps his play up. We need a useful bottom 6 but we need guys who can play in our top 6 and bring more than skill. We need more Taylor Hall's really. Boston has Lucic/Horton, LA has Brown/Richards...

Yakupov would also net way more and bring in that Brown kind of player. Gagner/Hemsky won't.

Yak has that mean streak and aggressive play in him. He's even made a couple big hits this year. I would much rather trade gagner before I trade yak.

The Perfect Human* 02-23-2013 10:04 PM

I'm not concerned because I know that at the end of the day, when this team's contending, there's no way all 5 of Ebs/Hall/RNH/Gags/Yakupov are going to be on this team.

Players will be moved to address deficiencies. It's going to hurt a lot of feelings too. But the team will be better for it.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins (Post 60352313)
No ****ing kidding eh?

How do you expect to get those kind of players without giving up any of the big four let alone keeping it under the cap? :shakehead

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 (Post 60352441)
I'm not concerned because I know that at the end of the day, when this team's contending, there's no way all 5 of Ebs/Hall/RNH/Gags/Yakupov are going to be on this team.

Players will be moved to address deficiencies. It's going to hurt a lot of feelings too. But th the team will be better for it.

This is what I'm getting at. People here are so connected with these players though and it's hard to face reality. I think Yakupov should be the one to be traded if it's any of them.

Seriously, imagine Yakupov in a couple years being traded. We could get a boat load for him and it would help our team more than having just him because we already have 3 other stars!

The Perfect Human* 02-23-2013 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Moss (Post 60352669)
This is what I'm getting at. People here are so connected with these players though and it's hard to face reality. I think Yakupov should be the one to be traded if it's any of them.

I don't feel his value will ever get high enough for us to maximize the return on the trade.
I feel moving Ebs in the next 6-12 months will garner us a huge return. He's going to be a great NHL player - and teams know that. The return on him would be amazing.
Ideally I'd move 2 of Ebs/Yak/Hemsky (probably Ebs/Hemmer) + Gagner + MPS + draft picks/prospects to address:

-#2C
-2 bigger wingers (1 LW, 1 RW)
-#3C of present+future
(if possible, a top-4Dman - will cost you a bit more to grab one of these)

Keep the 1st overall's around. There's a reason they were taken so high.

As for 3rd line wingers - there's an annual over-abundance of capable 2-way wingers that are available as UFA's. That's where you go to address that.
4th line wingers can be Harski/Petrell/Eager types.

No room for an MPS in this line-up IMO.

We need to buy low and sell high when it comes to these complementary players. We've had a long history of paying guys for their out-lying "peak" seasons (Souray, Penner).
Let's grab them when they're at their lows.

Guys I'd target include Tyler Myers, Drew Stafford, Peter Mueller - these guys have a high chance of bouncing back if playing with our "core" players - guys like Hall, Yakupov, RNH.

zeus3007* 02-23-2013 10:18 PM

OH NOES!!! DOOM AND GLOOM!!! END OF ZA WORLDZ!!!

Seriously, if anyone was expecting us to be much better than we currently are, they needed a reality check.

AlowlyOilersfan 02-23-2013 10:20 PM

Right now, we are just developing our own prospects and draft picks.

I wouldn't call that building a team.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 60353321)
OH NOES!!! DOOM AND GLOOM!!! END OF ZA WORLDZ!!!

Seriously, if anyone was expecting us to be much better than we currently are, they needed a reality check.

I'm pretty sure no one was expecting one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. There is a reason we aren't scoring.

The Perfect Human* 02-23-2013 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 60353321)
OH NOES!!! DOOM AND GLOOM!!! END OF ZA WORLDZ!!!

Seriously, if anyone was expecting us to be much better than we currently are, they needed a reality check.

I wasn't expecting better because even on paper we're not built right.

Joey Moss 02-23-2013 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 (Post 60352985)
I don't feel his value will ever get high enough for us to maximize the return on the trade.
I feel moving Ebs in the next 6-12 months will garner us a huge return. He's going to be a great NHL player - and teams know that. The return on him would be amazing.
Ideally I'd move 2 of Ebs/Yak/Hemsky (probably Ebs/Hemmer) + Gagner + MPS + draft picks/prospects to address:

-#2C
-2 bigger wingers (1 LW, 1 RW)
-#3C of present+future
(if possible, a top-4Dman - will cost you a bit more to grab one of these)

Keep the 1st overall's around. There's a reason they were taken so high.

As for 3rd line wingers - there's an annual over-abundance of capable 2-way wingers that are available as UFA's. That's where you go to address that.
4th line wingers can be Harski/Petrell/Eager types.

No room for an MPS in this line-up IMO.

We need to buy low and sell high when it comes to these complementary players. We've had a long history of paying guys for their out-lying "peak" seasons (Souray, Penner).
Let's grab them when they're at their lows.

Guys I'd target include Tyler Myers, Drew Stafford, Peter Mueller - these guys have a high chance of bouncing back if playing with our "core" players - guys like Hall, Yakupov, RNH.

I disagree. Eberle has proven he plays huge in big games. Hall, Nuge and Eberle should be the main one's to stay. Yakupov will be a top notch player and teams will know he can produce more if he's "the guy". He'll have huge value.


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