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-   -   Grabovski in the shutdown role (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1358963)

Pierre Gotye 02-24-2013 03:25 AM

Grabovski in the shutdown role
 
I don't know why RC insists on making Grabo the shutdown center.

Teams need good production from their 2nd line, mostly offensively and Grabovski doesn't look half as dynamic as in previous seasons.

Anyone else agree, Grabo as the shutdown center is wasting most of his talent?

BonMorrison 02-24-2013 03:27 AM

Grabo looked like his old self tonight as did his linemates but it came at the price of that line being below average defensively (-2's all across the board). It seems like we can only have one of the two here. I've been advocating pretty hard for Bozak to play shutdown and Grabo to move to the top line as a) it makes it a more offensive punch and b) the Kessel - Grabovski no-chemistry thing is purely a myth that was tested for no more than 4 games. They have scored, assisted, and cycled many times and generated pressure on many occasions during line changes and whatnot.

noto0661 02-24-2013 03:29 AM

I agree, and I also think it hurts his trade value - if that situation ever came about.

You would think a shut down centre could win a face-off or two.

7even 02-24-2013 03:32 AM

It's pretty inane -- what makes Grabovski a good defensive player is that he's such a good possession player, the other team never has the puck. He's not going to be as successful defensively if he's only being used in a defensive role, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

Pretty weak sauce, RC.

BertCorbeau 02-24-2013 03:46 AM

RC's making the best of what he's got though, I think he even acknowledged he doesn't have a "true shutdown line" .. He has two scoring lines, a grinder line, and a line that he says expects to score and play defense

You can't really think it's better for him to match Kessel's line or Kadri's line or a 4th line with McLaren, Orr, or Brown against other team's top lines can you?

mapes 02-24-2013 07:47 AM

5.5 mill for a shutdown center is a lot. Bozak would be more ideal but they need him on the first line until they find a great 2 way center

TmlHockeyFan 02-24-2013 08:05 AM

All three goals taken by the senators yesterday was when his line was on the ice.......... just saying.

(Both of the leafs goal was when he was on the ice)

416Leafer 02-24-2013 08:15 AM

We're 11th for Goals/Game and 8th in Goals Against/Game. We're also much higher in the standings than most people predicted.

Grabo is doing a pretty solid job in a shutdown role. And the offence that Kadri, Frattin (before injury), etc are bringing means Grabos offence isnt a huge necessity.

Its hurting Grabos personal stats, but its clearing working and helping us win games. Problems are that he's overpaid for a shutdown role, and not putting up points might hurt his trade value. But those are issues for the GM, Carlyle is supposed to come up with the best plan to win with what he's given, IMO he's clearly getting higher than expected results out of this group.

birddog* 02-24-2013 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye (Post 60363085)
I don't know why RC insists on making Grabo the shutdown center.

Teams need good production from their 2nd line, mostly offensively and Grabovski doesn't look half as dynamic as in previous seasons.

Anyone else agree, Grabo as the shutdown center is wasting most of his talent?

RC is not trying to change Grabo into a shutdown center. He isn't and RC couldn't. What RC is doing is looking at other teams lineups and trying to get matchups that give the Leafs the best chance for success. Right now Grabo is the only option. Kessel is not strong defensively and doesn't match up well against some. Kadri is young and not suited to play against certain players. The fourth line definitely isn't an option.

I'm sure RC would like to throw Getzlaf out there but it isn't an option. Grabo is the best option for the Leafs right now.

dubplatepressure 02-24-2013 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birddog (Post 60365525)
RC is not trying to change Grabo into a shutdown center. He isn't and RC couldn't. What RC is doing is looking at other teams lineups and trying to get matchups that give the Leafs the best chance for success. Right now Grabo is the only option. Kessel is not strong defensively and doesn't match up well against some. Kadri is young and not suited to play against certain players. The fourth line definitely isn't an option.

I'm sure RC would like to throw Getzlaf out there but it isn't an option. Grabo is the best option for the Leafs right now.

This.

And side note last night was grabo's best game this season.

p.l.f. 02-24-2013 09:56 AM

bozak being good on faceoffs could be groomed into the checking role

randy still doesnt have the right key players and is using certain guys that don't look right in them
it's impressive what he's got out of what he's had to work with really

ie:
phaneuf - holzer
jvr bozak kessel
komarov grabovsky kulemin

Nonis has some work to do

Mess 02-24-2013 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonMorrison (Post 60363153)
Grabo looked like his old self tonight as did his linemates but it came at the price of that line being below average defensively (-2's all across the board). It seems like we can only have one of the two here. I've been advocating pretty hard for Bozak to play shutdown and Grabo to move to the top line as a) it makes it a more offensive punch and b) the Kessel - Grabovski no-chemistry thing is purely a myth that was tested for no more than 4 games. They have scored, assisted, and cycled many times and generated pressure on many occasions during line changes and whatnot.

Leafs situation is based on not having a true #1 center. If Leafs did have one then Bozak would assume a 3rd line checking role and that would free up Grabovski to re-assume the 2nd line scoring role.

Also because Grabs and Kulemin are our better 2-way players they're leaned on by the coach to help defend in a defensive system, asked to go against the other teams best offensive players. Its not really a punishment but increased responsibility due to their contributions at both ends of the ice.

GordieHoweHatTrick 02-24-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapes (Post 60365261)
5.5 mill for a shutdown center is a lot. Bozak would be more ideal but they need him on the first line until they find a great 2 way center

Aside from winning faceoffs there is no proof Bozak would be any better than Grabovski.

McClement would probably be the best in that role but we know that the emergence of Kadri has disrupted the way RC wanted to utilize McClement (he said he wanted him on that third line, not sure if he would use him in a shutdown role though). I'm beginning to open up to the idea of moving Grabovski and replacing him internally with McClement. That would really put the onus on Kadri, as well as the 1st line, to produce because I doubt you're getting much offense from a McClement led line. If that were to happen I'd like something good + some center depth coming back.

Grant 02-24-2013 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick (Post 60368661)
Aside from winning faceoffs there is no proof Bozak would be any better than Grabovski.

McClement would probably be the best in that role but we know that the emergence of Kadri has disrupted the way RC wanted to utilize McClement (he said he wanted him on that third line, not sure if he would use him in a shutdown role though). I'm beginning to open up to the idea of moving Grabovski and replacing him internally with McClement. That would really put the onus on Kadri, as well as the 1st line, to produce because I doubt you're getting much offense from a McClement led line. If that were to happen I'd like something good + some center depth coming back.

Same here. If you asked me in the off season I would have said no way, that we needed him. Now I'm open to moving him not because he has played poorly but because of the emergence of Kadri and how solid McClemant has played. I did not think either would play as well as they have.

You mention putting the burden to produce on Kadri + Kessel's line but there I would disagree. We have enough winger depth that McClemant would still be playing with quality wingers who could produce offense still (McClemant appears competent enough to bury some chances as well although I wouldn't rely upon him to produce). When our lineup is healthy we would probably be looking at
Lupul/JVr - Bozak - Kessel (top line minutes)
Lupul/JVR - Kadri - Frattin (sheltered minutes)
MacArthur - McClemant - Kulemin (shutdown minutes)

Kulemin + MacArthur could produce some goals, probably more than the average for the third line in the league. And this is assuming Grabo returns picks/prospects.

How things have changed since the offseason.

Sterling31 02-24-2013 11:06 AM

I would try to light a fire under his ass....all while making a legit Shutdown Line.

JvR-Bozak-Kessel
Kulemin-Mcclement-Komarov
MacArthur-Kadri-Grabovski


Mcclement has outplayed Grabovski in the shutdown role, and the best thing to happen in the D zone is seeing Grabo get kicked from the Faceoff so we had a chance for Jay to win it.

The Offensive help cant come back soon enough.

GordieHoweHatTrick 02-24-2013 11:10 AM

You're probably right Grant, although I wouldn't want Mac playing in a defensive role. Don't think he's up to snuff. One thing that worries me about moving Grabovski is how that affects Kulemin. Kulemin has mentioned before that Grabovski is his 2nd wife (lol) and I suspect these two are really tight. I know, its a petty thing to be worrying about, and a player's feeling should have no bearing on how a team handles it's personnel but I do feel like it would have some sort of an impact on Kulemin regardless.

Pyromaniac3 02-24-2013 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant (Post 60368999)
Same here. If you asked me in the off season I would have said no way, that we needed him. Now I'm open to moving him not because he has played poorly but because of the emergence of Kadri and how solid McClemant has played. I did not think either would play as well as they have.

You mention putting the burden to produce on Kadri + Kessel's line but there I would disagree. We have enough winger depth that McClemant would still be playing with quality wingers who could produce offense still (McClemant appears competent enough to bury some chances as well although I wouldn't rely upon him to produce). When our lineup is healthy we would probably be looking at
Lupul/JVr - Bozak - Kessel (top line minutes)
Lupul/JVR - Kadri - Frattin (sheltered minutes)
MacArthur - McClemant - Kulemin (shutdown minutes)

Kulemin + MacArthur could produce some goals, probably more than the average for the third line in the league. And this is assuming Grabo returns picks/prospects.

How things have changed since the offseason.

I would replace Macarthur with Komarov. Macarthur doesn't do anything when he is not scoring. Komarov actually hits and get under opponents skin while providing some good defence.

exporta 02-24-2013 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant (Post 60368999)
Same here. If you asked me in the off season I would have said no way, that we needed him. Now I'm open to moving him not because he has played poorly but because of the emergence of Kadri and how solid McClemant has played. I did not think either would play as well as they have.

You mention putting the burden to produce on Kadri + Kessel's line but there I would disagree. We have enough winger depth that McClemant would still be playing with quality wingers who could produce offense still (McClemant appears competent enough to bury some chances as well although I wouldn't rely upon him to produce). When our lineup is healthy we would probably be looking at
Lupul/JVr - Bozak - Kessel (top line minutes)
Lupul/JVR - Kadri - Frattin (sheltered minutes)
MacArthur - McClemant - Kulemin (shutdown minutes)

Kulemin + MacArthur could produce some goals, probably more than the average for the third line in the league. And this is assuming Grabo returns picks/prospects.

How things have changed since the offseason.

And if one of Bozak or Kadri get injured? Really unless we can upgrade Grabo to better centre, i.e. a Getzlaf trading him for picks/prospects doesn't make any sense.

We have three centers rolling with McClement as a filler where need be. You can't be successful if you only have two top 6 centres in a 82 game schedule. Having two players (Grabo/Bozak) having the ability to assume a shut down role is what you need when you lack a true #1 centre.

If you can't roll a true 1st line, the next best thing is rolling 3 2nd lines - especially if one assumes a "shut down" role.

Hero 02-24-2013 11:18 AM

Grabovski for Hanzal would be a perfect deal.

If Grabo is only used as a defensive C anyways, trade him for one.

GordieHoweHatTrick 02-24-2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exporta (Post 60369349)
And if one of Bozak or Kadri get injured? Really unless we can upgrade Grabo to better centre, i.e. a Getzlaf trading him for picks/prospects doesn't make any sense.

We have three centers rolling with McClement as a filler where need be. You can be successful if you only have two top 6 centres in a 82 game schedule. Having two players (Grabo/Bozak) having the ability to assume a shut down role is what you need when you lack a true #1 centre.

If you can't roll a true 1st line, the next best thing is rolling 3 2nd lines - especially if one assumes a "shut down" role.

Hence the position we're in.

I don't think Grant, or myself, want Grabovski out but we're, for the first time, open to the idea of moving him if the right deal presented itself (not sure what that is atm). I've always liked Grabovski but since Kadri's emergence and McClement's signing (who could assume his role at a fraction of the cost) we finally added some legit center depth and its made Grabovski somewhat available. Not redundant, but available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero (Post 60369533)
Grabovski for Hanzal would be a perfect deal.

If Grabo is only used as a defensive C anyways, trade him for one.

But we have one. When McClement signed here he expected to be playing lots of minutes on the third line, Carlyle expected the same. Now that Kadri has performed well McClement has been demoted to the 4th line because you're not going to put Grabovski and his 5.5m down there.

cup67 02-24-2013 11:26 AM

trade for ROR

exporta 02-24-2013 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick (Post 60369545)
Hence the position we're in.

I don't think Grant, or myself, want Grabovski out but we're, for the first time, open to the idea of moving him if the right deal presented itself (not sure what that is atm). I've always liked Grabovski but since Kadri's emergence and McClement's signing (who could assume his role at a fraction of the cost) we finally added some legit center depth and its made Grabovski somewhat available. Not redundant, but available.



But we have one. When McClement signed here he expected to be playing lots of minutes on the third line, Carlyle expected the same. Now that Kadri has performed well McClement has been demoted to the 4th line because you're not going to put Grabovski and his 5.5m down there.

I still don't think the emergence of Kadri makes you open to moving Grabovski, unless its for a clear upgrade - which has always been the case with or without Kadri.

The fact remains that we need 4 top 9 centres to be competitive, I'd hate to have our next best centre out of the top nine be Steckel/Connolly/Colborne at this point.

GordieHoweHatTrick 02-24-2013 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exporta (Post 60369853)
I still don't think the emergence of Kadri makes you open to moving Grabovski, unless its for a clear upgrade - which has always been the case with or without Kadri.

The fact remains that we need 4 top 9 centres to be competitive, I'd hate to have our next best centre out of the top nine be Steckel/Connolly/Colborne at this point.

You're absolutely correct.

The Blue Devil 02-24-2013 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick (Post 60369545)
Hence the position we're in.

I don't think Grant, or myself, want Grabovski out but we're, for the first time, open to the idea of moving him if the right deal presented itself (not sure what that is atm). I've always liked Grabovski but since Kadri's emergence and McClement's signing (who could assume his role at a fraction of the cost) we finally added some legit center depth and its made Grabovski somewhat available. Not redundant, but available.



But we have one. When McClement signed here he expected to be playing lots of minutes on the third line, Carlyle expected the same. Now that Kadri has performed well McClement has been demoted to the 4th line because you're not going to put Grabovski and his 5.5m down there.

Grabo in a shut-down role also provides a scoring threat. It would help if he had some offensive wingers to help him out in that regard. His line was dominant when JVR was playing with him.

FlareKnight 02-24-2013 11:36 AM

Unfortunately it's a tough spot right now. Nonis will have to make some moves and for now this is all that Carlyle can do. Can't use Kessel's line or Kadri's line as shutdowns, so use the one line that is at least semi-good at it.

It's just working with what you have. A top line center who isn't really a top line center and a shutdown one that isn't that either. Put guys into the best roles for the players you have and work with it.

Long term not sure about the solution. But if Kadri is going to be one of the top offensive centers then Grabo may not be a guy around long term (despite him getting signed to that kind of contract...)


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