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-   -   Why do our backups consistently have better records? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1361291)

Erick* 02-26-2013 11:08 PM

Why do our backups consistently have better records?
 
2007-08
Starter: Tomas Vokoun -- 30-29-8
Backup: Craig Anderson -- 8-6-1

2008-09
Starter: Tomas Vokoun -- 26-23-6
Backup: Craig Anderson -- 15-7-5

2009-10
Starter: Tomas Vokoun -- 23-28-11
Backup: Scott Clemmensen -- 9-8-2

2010-11
Starter: Tomas Vokoun -- 22-28-5
Backup: Scott Clemmensen -- 8-11-7

2011-12
Starter: Jose Theodore -- 22-16-11
Backup: Scott Clemmensen -- 14-6-6

2012-13
Starter: Jose Theodore -- 4-6-2
Backup: Scott Clemmensen -- 2-1-2

I understand that goalies shouldn't really just be evaluated based on their records, but that's not really the point of the thread, anyway.

This is now going on six consecutive years of data with the same trend. I'd imagine that this isn't really the case with any other team. It seems like this might happen for a team one year, maybe two years...but six consecutive years? :help:

Do we overrate our starting goaltenders?
Does the team play differently/better in front of the backups? If so, why don't they play that way consistently, regardless of the goaltender?

The last time we had a starter put up a much better record than the backup was when Ed Belfour was here. That, in large part, due to how much Alex Auld sucked. :laugh:

Since 07-08, this team has put up a solid record of 56-39-23 with the backups in net; with the starters in net, the record is 127-130-43. :help:
You'd think that wouldn't be the case after six (5+ if you want to say this year's sample is still too small) years of data, right?

p9ers 02-27-2013 12:16 AM

Anderson proved himself to be better than Vokoun.

Clemmenson has always been underrated imo, in 08-09 when he played 40 games due to Brodeur injury, he had (marginally) better stats than him. It just happens that we have really good backup goalie and "more proven" goalie that are starters.

JonathanHuberdoh 02-27-2013 03:15 AM

Gotta ride the hot hand.

Play Clemmer until he's had a string of a couple of bad games. It's only fair to give him the same shot we did Theo. Team is winning in front of him too.

In regards to Theo though, something very interesting. I actually think I saw you over on that thread too Erick....

There was a thread on the main NHL board here that isolated goalie stats to "save percentage on shots 15 feet out or closer". Theo was ranked #1 in the league with a .921 save % on those shots, however his overall save% for the season is sitting at a lowly .888 after last night. Before last night's game the thought crossed my mind that maybe Theo struggles with shots from far out. After his performance yesterday and seeing the goals he did give up, I think I may be onto something....

The Cat Captain 02-27-2013 03:24 AM

One thing I remember from the Anderson days was that it seemed the entire team fought a lot harder to ensure he had a clear view of all the incoming shots whenever he played. They all relied on Vokoun being able to take most pucks, but when Andy got time they all appeared to play more focused backchecking and defence.
/C

adam graves 02-27-2013 06:20 AM

The whole idea behind bringing a backup in is to change the momentum. Last night after Theo's horrific performance there were multiple blocked shots and a much better defensive job, knowing they had to pick it up.
Clemmer was very solid. But it's all a joke as the clearly the best goalie went to the airport Monday night.

jakethesnake23 02-27-2013 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cat Captain (Post 60569751)
One thing I remember from the Anderson days was that it seemed the entire team fought a lot harder to ensure he had a clear view of all the incoming shots whenever he played. They all relied on Vokoun being able to take most pucks, but when Andy got time they all appeared to play more focused backchecking and defence.
/C

There is something to that. The team focuses on defense more. Same thing when goalies are called up or are rookies.

PanthersHockey1 02-27-2013 08:13 AM

I think the day of the starter and backup is dying in the nhl. Many of the best teams have two starters in order to be successful and the panthers should be no exception. Ride the hot hand.

Montsy14 02-27-2013 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHuberdoh (Post 60569673)
Gotta ride the hot hand.

Play Clemmer until he's had a string of a couple of bad games. It's only fair to give him the same shot we did Theo. Team is winning in front of him too.

In regards to Theo though, something very interesting. I actually think I saw you over on that thread too Erick....

There was a thread on the main NHL board here that isolated goalie stats to "save percentage on shots 15 feet out or closer". Theo was ranked #1 in the league with a .921 save % on those shots, however his overall save% for the season is sitting at a lowly .888 after last night. Before last night's game the thought crossed my mind that maybe Theo struggles with shots from far out. After his performance yesterday and seeing the goals he did give up, I think I may be onto something....


I think you are onto something. If you really think about it, Theo's positioning is always pretty darn good which might explain why he's good in tight (he's also significantly better than Clemm in the shootout), but when it comes to tracking pucks from far out, he seems to struggle.

Laus723 02-27-2013 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 (Post 60572991)
I think the day of the starter and backup is dying in the nhl. Many of the best teams have two starters in order to be successful and the panthers should be no exception. Ride the hot hand.

Like who? Consistently good teams have consistently good starters.

PanthersHockey1 02-27-2013 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laus723 (Post 60573269)
Like who? Consistently good teams have consistently good starters.

First that come to mind- Luongo/Schneider and Emery/Crawford.

adam graves 02-27-2013 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montsy14 (Post 60573219)
I think you are onto something. If you really think about it, Theo's positioning is always pretty darn good which might explain why he's good in tight (he's also significantly better than Clemm in the shootout), but when it comes to tracking pucks from far out, he seems to struggle.

I don't think the issue is tracking pucks; he doesn't challenge the shooter enough when they're 30 feet out. He don't leave the paint far out enough. His asset is agility, but because of his diminutive size, he needs to be 3 feet out of the paint to cover the net form 30 feet. And stay big longer.

PanthersHockey1 02-27-2013 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 60573739)
I don't think the issue is tracking pucks; he doesn't challenge the shooter enough when they're 30 feet out. He don't leave the paint far out enough. His asset is agility, but because of his diminutive size, he needs to be 3 feet out of the paint to cover the net form 30 feet. And stay big longer.

I can tell how clemmer can be on any given night depending how much he is moving. When he is bad it seems like he is jumping around all over the place and making saves in awkward positions.


When he is on his game he stands tall in net and doesnt jump around nearly as much.

Laus723 02-27-2013 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 (Post 60573561)
First that come to mind- Luongo/Schneider and Emery/Crawford.

But Louie's been on the trade block forever and Chicago's getting lucky so far this season.

RainingRats 02-27-2013 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 60573739)
I don't think the issue is tracking pucks; he doesn't challenge the shooter enough when they're 30 feet out. He don't leave the paint far out enough. His asset is agility, but because of his diminutive size, he needs to be 3 feet out of the paint to cover the net form 30 feet. And stay big longer.

True. And our D does a terrible job clearing the front of the net.

nhlfan9191 02-27-2013 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonathanHuberdoh (Post 60569673)
Gotta ride the hot hand.

Play Clemmer until he's had a string of a couple of bad games. It's only fair to give him the same shot we did Theo. Team is winning in front of him too.

In regards to Theo though, something very interesting. I actually think I saw you over on that thread too Erick....

There was a thread on the main NHL board here that isolated goalie stats to "save percentage on shots 15 feet out or closer". Theo was ranked #1 in the league with a .921 save % on those shots, however his overall save% for the season is sitting at a lowly .888 after last night. Before last night's game the thought crossed my mind that maybe Theo struggles with shots from far out. After his performance yesterday and seeing the goals he did give up, I think I may be onto something....

And you would be right. Theodore used to give Hab fans heart attacks with shots from the point.

Erick* 02-27-2013 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 60570903)
The whole idea behind bringing a backup in is to change the momentum. Last night after Theo's horrific performance there were multiple blocked shots and a much better defensive job, knowing they had to pick it up.
Clemmer was very solid. But it's all a joke as the clearly the best goalie went to the airport Monday night.

Do you think the team is better in front of Clemmensen?

If you do think that, isn't it rather frustrating that they don't play the same way for both goaltenders?

I'm not sure if they're consistently better in front of backups than starters. However, if that's the case, they should start playing the same way for the starter.

It also seems like the team scores more goals with Clemmensen in net, for whatever reason.

I don't get it. I doubt any other team in the NHL has a much better W-L record when the backup plays like the Panthers have done the past six years.

adam graves 02-27-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick (Post 60579949)
Do you think the team is better in front of Clemmensen?

If you do think that, isn't it rather frustrating that they don't play the same way for both goaltenders?

I'm not sure if they're consistently better in front of backups than starters. However, if that's the case, they should start playing the same way for the starter.

It also seems like the team scores more goals with Clemmensen in net, for whatever reason.

I don't get it. I doubt any other team in the NHL has a much better W-L record when the backup plays like the Panthers have done the past six years.

In general its a known hockey proposition that when the backup comes in the D tightens up..not an issue particular to the panthers.

I just noticed more block shots in the 3rd than ive seen in a long time. That aside, clemmer made 15 of his own. good on him.

Erick* 02-27-2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam graves (Post 60580069)
In general its a known hockey proposition that when the backup comes in the D tightens up..not an issue particular to the panthers.

I just noticed more block shots in the 3rd than ive seen in a long time. That aside, clemmer made 15 of his own. good on him.

That seems like perception, though.

On most teams, the starter has a better record than the backup. It's just odd that we perform like a playoff team with backups in net, yet we're mediocre at best when we put our starters in. And it's dating back to six years now, which isn't a small sample. It seems like it's only something that has happened to this franchise.

As Laus said, most successful teams right now have a starter and a successful record with that starter in net.

FlaPnthrsPunk 02-27-2013 12:36 PM

At least in our history, we've been known to play a start a lot more starts than the backup, giving the starter more opportunity to have a losing record. Typically, I've noticed that the backup will start a game after the starter had a cold streak and being fresh off the bench go on a hot streak. Usually, we'll ride that backup until he loses.

I'm probably just pulling that out of my ass, but it's the first thing I thought of.


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