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-   -   When did Datsyuk get demoted to the 4th line? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1362633)

SortaExtremist 02-28-2013 09:30 AM

When did Datsyuk get demoted to the 4th line?
 
Franzen and brunner on the first line with Z and Datsyuk is stuck with Cleary and Abdelkader. If my memory serves me right, last night I thought I heard Daniels say that babcock like Abdelkader and Cleary on Datsyuk's wings. WTF is going on, I know fil and bertuzzi are out by why not play Tatar or Frazen instead of Cleary or abdelkader on the wing.

I don't see Datsyuk staying in Detroit if they don't get anyone who is an ACTUAL top six forward on his wing.

SoupGuru 02-28-2013 10:04 AM

I'm really kind of getting tired with this whole theme of second guessing Babcock and Holland. It's easy to sit here and armchair coach without knowing a goddamned thing.

we like our team* 02-28-2013 10:06 AM

yeah stop having your own opinions guys

SoupGuru 02-28-2013 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braille (Post 60645099)
yeah stop having your own opinions guys

I'm fine with people discussing their opinions. I'm discussing my opinion right now, in fact.

JmanWingsFan 02-28-2013 10:10 AM

Cleary is getting better. Slowly, but his play is picking up. Abdelkader's put the time and effort in at least to earn Babcock's trust, regardless. The line creates space for Datsyuk. Datsyuk + Space = Death for the other team. Look, Tatar is on the third line because every Wings prospect starts off in the bottom six. No ifs, ands, or buts. I find it Ironic that the "play the young guns" crowd argues they don't care where the young kids play, or how much TOI they get so long as they're playing. And then they cite Pavel Datsyuk playing on the bottom six to back up their arguments. And then the moment everything happens as predicted, they're ready to lynch management because their favorite young player isn't getting the TOI they think he deserves.

Henkka 02-28-2013 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SortaExtremist (Post 60643715)
Franzen and brunner on the first line with Z and Datsyuk is stuck with Cleary and Abdelkader. If my memory serves me right, last night I thought I heard Daniels say that babcock like Abdelkader and Cleary on Datsyuk's wings. WTF is going on, I know fil and bertuzzi are out by why not play Tatar or Frazen instead of Cleary or abdelkader on the wing.

I don't see Datsyuk staying in Detroit if they don't get anyone who is an ACTUAL top six forward on his wing.

When all the other Top6 forwards are injured, what can you do?

It's Babcock logic in this ****** situation. You surround one 1st line super talent playmaker with two 3rd liners, and that makes a NHL-level 2nd line. It's kind of least worse option of all worst options.

WingedWheel1987 02-28-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan (Post 60645283)
Cleary is getting better. Slowly, but his play is picking up. Abdelkader's put the time and effort in at least to earn Babcock's trust, regardless. The line creates space for Datsyuk. Datsyuk + Space = Death for the other team. Look, Tatar is on the third line because every Wings prospect starts off in the bottom six. No ifs, ands, or buts. I find it Ironic that the "play the young guns" crowd argues they don't care where the young kids play, or how much TOI they get so long as they're playing. And then they cite Pavel Datsyuk playing on the bottom six to back up their arguments. And then the moment everything happens as predicted, they're ready to lynch management because their favorite young player isn't getting the TOI they think he deserves.

No team is going to respect Danny Cleary or Justin Abdelkader. They will zero in on Datsyuk and shut him down. Low hockey IQ and hands made of the hardest stone in the universe.

They are third line players on a good night.

JmanWingsFan 02-28-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 (Post 60645631)
No team is going to respect Danny Cleary or Justin Abdelkader. They will zero in on Datsyuk and shut him down. Low hockey IQ and hands made of the hardest stone in the universe.

They are third line players on a good night.

Why does your sort always have to come up with these phantom scenarios that never actually materialize? Is it just to perpetuate being able to complain?

WingedWheel1987 02-28-2013 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan (Post 60646639)
Why does your sort always have to come up with these phantom scenarios that never actually materialize? Is it just to perpetuate being able to complain?

What phantom scenario are you referring to?

Danny Cleary and Justin Abdelkader SUCK. They are bad top six players. Really, really bad.

JmanWingsFan 02-28-2013 10:42 AM

Abdelkader spends most of his time in front of the net just creating havoc. Cleary has registered, what, 5 points in the last couple of games recently? Teams will respect that threat. They know what he's done in the past, and they know what he can do when he's playing 100%. Worst thing a team can do is to not take their competition seriously.

As for phantom scenarios, the most recent one I can think of is the perpetuated nonsense that the AHL was some sort of death sentence for development. Here we have Joakim Andersson and Tomas Tatar up with the big club, and they're doing quite fine.

SortaExtremist 02-28-2013 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan (Post 60645283)
Cleary is getting better. Slowly, but his play is picking up. Abdelkader's put the time and effort in at least to earn Babcock's trust, regardless. The line creates space for Datsyuk. Datsyuk + Space = Death for the other team. Look, Tatar is on the third line because every Wings prospect starts off in the bottom six. No ifs, ands, or buts. I find it Ironic that the "play the young guns" crowd argues they don't care where the young kids play, or how much TOI they get so long as they're playing. And then they cite Pavel Datsyuk playing on the bottom six to back up their arguments. And then the moment everything happens as predicted, they're ready to lynch management because their favorite young player isn't getting the TOI they think he deserves.

Create space for Datsyuk? Are you kidding me? Datsyuk creates his own space and has to depend on cleary and abdelkader to something while he creates his own space. Secondly, I didn't say anything about young guns or favorite young player. I don't even know why you are assuming things. It makes no sense to play Cleary AND ABdelkader with Datsyuk. They have 9 points combined. With what logic do you play someone one the second line with Datsyuk who has had 1 point since the season started. Why not try something with better skill from the bottom six. If that player is a young then so be it.

How about bringing Frazen down and putting cleary with Z and Brunner and having Farnzen with Datsyuk and Abdelkader? Instead of 2 who are doing nothing but making Datsyuk work harder.

As a matter of fact, give me one good logical reason (besides the sorry excuse that "every Wings prospect starts off in the bottom six. No ifs, ands, or buts") anyone else from the bottom six chouldn't do any better than what little 11 and 8 have done playing with Datsyuk.

SortaExtremist 02-28-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henkka (Post 60645333)
When all the other Top6 forwards are injured, what can you do?

It's Babcock logic in this ****** situation. You surround one 1st line super talent playmaker with two 3rd liners, and that makes a NHL-level 2nd line. It's kind of least worse option of all worst options.

lol I guess you are right.

RedWingsNow* 02-28-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoupGuru (Post 60645041)
I'm really kind of getting tired with this whole theme of second guessing Babcock and Holland. It's easy to sit here and armchair coach without knowing a goddamned thing.

Are you getting tired of losing yet?

RedWingsNow* 02-28-2013 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henkka (Post 60645333)
When all the other Top6 forwards are injured, what can you do?

It's Babcock logic in this ****** situation. You surround one 1st line super talent playmaker with two 3rd liners, and that makes a NHL-level 2nd line. It's kind of least worse option of all worst options.

Give him talent. He obviously feels Tatar has some skill, or Tatar wouldn't be on the 2nd PP unit.

there's no guarantee Dats-Tatar would work. But what we know about Datsyuk is that he loves to pass. What we know about Tatar he has the ability to get open and get the puck in prime scoring locations

SortaExtremist 02-28-2013 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 (Post 60645631)
No team is going to respect Danny Cleary or Justin Abdelkader. They will zero in on Datsyuk and shut him down. Low hockey IQ and hands made of the hardest stone in the universe.

They are third line players on a good night.

I highly doubt coaches stay up at night wondering how to contain 11 and 8 from creating space for Datsyuk.

RedWingsNow* 02-28-2013 10:54 AM

What exactly is Abdelkader providing this team? The bottom lines don't look much worse with Emmerton and Andersson. He can't play on the top line.

Winger98 02-28-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan (Post 60645283)
Cleary is getting better. Slowly, but his play is picking up. Abdelkader's put the time and effort in at least to earn Babcock's trust, regardless. The line creates space for Datsyuk. Datsyuk + Space = Death for the other team. Look, Tatar is on the third line because every Wings prospect starts off in the bottom six. No ifs, ands, or buts. I find it Ironic that the "play the young guns" crowd argues they don't care where the young kids play, or how much TOI they get so long as they're playing. And then they cite Pavel Datsyuk playing on the bottom six to back up their arguments. And then the moment everything happens as predicted, they're ready to lynch management because their favorite young player isn't getting the TOI they think he deserves.

I think it just gets brushed off as Datsyuk's greatness that Cleary and Gator are giving him extra space out there. Watching them really makes me want to see us go out and get someone like Clowe to play next to Dats.

sepster 02-28-2013 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan (Post 60646639)
Why does your sort always have to come up with these phantom scenarios that never actually materialize? Is it just to perpetuate being able to complain?

Phantom scenario? How many points have Cleary and Abdelkader put up while playing with Datsyuk? How many points has Datsyuk put up since being paired with these two? Name one play (pass, hit, rebound) that Cleary or Abdelkader have caused in order for Datsyuk to create points. It hasn't happened. At all. Zero. That doesn't seem very "phantom" to me.

Now, Cleary has scored a couple of PP goals in the last while here, but that certainly doesn't say anything regarding his play at even strength paired with Datsyuk. He's still terrible. No hands, no passing ability, no playmaking ability.

Abdelkader has 1 assist on the season. I like him in the bottom 6, but to this point, I wouldn't mind trying a different option alongside Datsyuk.

I haven't noticed Datsyuk having more space to operate since this line has been put together. Quite the opposite in fact, he's got 2 guys on top of him constantly.

RedWingsNow* 02-28-2013 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger98 (Post 60647437)
I think it just gets brushed off as Datsyuk's greatness that Cleary and Gator are giving him extra space out there. Watching them really makes me want to see us go out and get someone like Clowe to play next to Dats.

I think it's a fantasy.

Abdelkader hits a lot. But he doesn't hit hard.

if I'm an NHL defenseman, I'm not overly worried about Cleary or Abdelkader anywhere on the ice.

They're not going to beat me, one-on-one. They might work hard, but they're not good at winning battles for pucks. I don't have to respect their speed or puckhandling ability, so I can close on them if they have the puck.

How many passes did Cleary or Abs make to Datsyuk last night? My guess is that D and Z made more passes to each other on one PP than Datsyuk and Cleary and Abs made to each other in the offensive zone all night

There are three options with this line
1) Datsyuk carries in - chance for something to happen.
2) Dump in -- little chance anything happens unless Datsyuk comes out of the pile with the pick.
3) Abs or Cleary carry in -- turnover, likely.

If you want to have ONE of Abs or Cleary on the line- I'd try that, if you had skill on the other side.

But both?

It looks incredibly stupid on paper -- and virtually any hockey fan could tell you that.
It looks worse on the ice.

Flowah 02-28-2013 11:06 AM

You guys are arguing with someone who legitimately thinks that Abby/Cleary are good linemates for Datsyuk and make the most of his offensive talents given the players we have available.

You guys are arguing with an insane man.

It's kind of pointless.

Jurky 02-28-2013 11:15 AM

I get the argument that Gator and Cleary make space for Datsyuk, but if that's what we're aiming for why not just slot Tootoo next to Dats?
He forechecks much better than both Abby and Cleary combined, he can hit like a freight train (makes D-men think twice), and is faster than both Cleary and Abs.
IMO He'd be much more effective at opening space for Pav.
I'd like to see them try it, even just for a couple periods.

Winger98 02-28-2013 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolph Lundgren (Post 60648431)
I get the argument that Gator and Cleary make space for Datsyuk, but if that's what we're aiming for why not just slot Tootoo next to Dats?
He forechecks much better than both Abby and Cleary combined, he can hit like a freight train (makes D-men think twice), and is faster than both Cleary and Abs.
IMO He'd be much more effective at opening space for Pav.
I'd like to see them try it, even just for a couple periods.

I'm not sure why Tootoo doesn't get more icetime in general. He doesn't seem to be bad defensively, and he skates really well - something that is still holding Cleary back.

Jurky 02-28-2013 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger98 (Post 60648961)
I'm not sure why Tootoo doesn't get more icetime in general. He doesn't seem to be bad defensively, and he skates really well - something that is still holding Cleary back.

I know, it drives me up the wall that Tootoo only gets less than 10min/game. He and Tatar have a Helm-like effect on the team.

pdd 02-28-2013 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger98 (Post 60648961)
He doesn't seem to be bad defensively.

If he were better than "meh" defensively, he'd have had the sense to pick up Kopitar when Emmerton was trapped against the boards by Ericsson falling over.

Winger98 02-28-2013 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolph Lundgren (Post 60649263)
I know, it drives me up the wall that Tootoo only gets less than 10min/game. He and Tatar have a Helm-like effect on the team.

To be fair, part of that might be from having their minutes limited and their spots picked a bit. I remember people pushing for Eaves to get top6 time back before the concussion, expecting him to keep up his 20% shooting percentage.

With Tatar, and all rookies, I think we forget how sheltered a lot of rookies are. Looking back, Datsyuk averaged a bit over 13.39 minutes a night as a rookie. Franzen was at a little over 12. Flip was at around 11 minutes a night. Z was a bit of an outlier getting 16 minutes a night. Granted, those minutes could come on a different line for Tatar, but his actual IT is pretty in line with what have given rookies in the past.


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