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LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 07:34 AM

Beer League Goons...Why?
 
http://lastwordonsports.com/getting-to-know-a-goon-the-sean-avery-type-and-alexander-ovechkin-complex/

Recreational hockey goons, why do people feel the absolute need to fight?

Quote:

It is this behavior that we really need to get out of hockey, recreational hockey. This irrational trend of some players who just seem to lose their mind and forget that there is not much on the line, we are all just regular folks who love the game and want to play it, but at the end of the day we have wives, jobs, and kids to go back to.

FANonymous 03-01-2013 08:31 AM

I generally play a very clean game, I'm talking averaging maybe 2 Penalty Minutes a season, but there is one game I recall where the other team probably thought I was a goon.

The first period started fine, but as it went on it became apparent that the refs were either not paying attention or were allowing it to get more physical than most games in the league. This lead to increased trash talk and other signs of general disrespect from both teams towards each other [snow showers on the goalie, unnecessary physicality completely away from the puck].

Things were getting out of hand and in the 2nd period it all came to a head. In a short sequence while I was out on the ice playing defense, our goalie made a save, got mildly clipped but I was able to pass the puck out of the zone to one of our wingers. I checked on our goalie and he seemed okay and I'm slowly heading up ice to join the offensive push. For some reason one of their forwards was hanging back with me, he was immensely behind the play [we're at the tops of the faceoff dots as the puck is crossing the line into their zone].

He didn't say anything to me but proceeded to skate up next to me and try to slow me down by leaning into me/cutting me off. It was a silly, worthless dick move. I have no problem with people playing physical, but why bother doing something like that when neither of us are in the play. The puck is nowhere near us, it was just dumb. So I gave him a little chop to the back of the leg to signal that I did not appreciate what he was trying to do. Not too hard, but not too light. He turned around and looked like he was about to throw down. The only thing that stopped this was the outcry of our entire bench.

I didn't get to see what happened but I look up and our best forward is laying on the ice on his back with a WTF look in his eyes, staring at the ref. You know that look, when someone OBVIOUSLY did something illegal in full sight of the refs and they didn't call it? Yeah, that was the look he had. Of course it was the best skater too. He was getting hacked and slashed, tripped and checked [in a non-checking league] in pretty much every game I saw him in over the 4 seasons we played together. I'd seen him get multiple concussions in our non-checking rec league.

At this point I had made my way to the opposing blue line and I had enough. The guy who was our general hothead [goon if you prefer] wasn't on the ice and the way the game was going things were already out of hand. The puck bounced to one of their players, right in line with me, and I skated up and planted him with a straight shoulder-to-sternum check. Didn't care that it was 2 minutes, it seemed like it needed to be done.

After that the game was a whole lot cleaner. Less physical, more respect. It's hard to regret what I did that night even though I know it was wrong. The game was getting out of hand, I took an obvious penalty, the game was back under control after that. That's the story of how I became a goon for 15 minutes.

MJAYK 03-01-2013 09:01 AM

Doing things like rocking someone with a bomb of a check tend to escalate tense games even more. If i was the captain i would go to the refs and say this **** is getting out of hand, either you start making calls or this game ends here. Nobody needs to get hurt.

The Tikkanen 03-01-2013 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FANonymous (Post 60726509)
I generally play a very clean game, I'm talking averaging maybe 2 Penalty Minutes a season, but there is one game I recall where the other team probably thought I was a goon.

The first period started fine, but as it went on it became apparent that the refs were either not paying attention or were allowing it to get more physical than most games in the league. This lead to increased trash talk and other signs of general disrespect from both teams towards each other [snow showers on the goalie, unnecessary physicality completely away from the puck].

Things were getting out of hand and in the 2nd period it all came to a head. In a short sequence while I was out on the ice playing defense, our goalie made a save, got mildly clipped but I was able to pass the puck out of the zone to one of our wingers. I checked on our goalie and he seemed okay and I'm slowly heading up ice to join the offensive push. For some reason one of their forwards was hanging back with me, he was immensely behind the play [we're at the tops of the faceoff dots as the puck is crossing the line into their zone].

He didn't say anything to me but proceeded to skate up next to me and try to slow me down by leaning into me/cutting me off. It was a silly, worthless dick move. I have no problem with people playing physical, but why bother doing something like that when neither of us are in the play. The puck is nowhere near us, it was just dumb. So I gave him a little chop to the back of the leg to signal that I did not appreciate what he was trying to do. Not too hard, but not too light. He turned around and looked like he was about to throw down. The only thing that stopped this was the outcry of our entire bench.

I didn't get to see what happened but I look up and our best forward is laying on the ice on his back with a WTF look in his eyes, staring at the ref. You know that look, when someone OBVIOUSLY did something illegal in full sight of the refs and they didn't call it? Yeah, that was the look he had. Of course it was the best skater too. He was getting hacked and slashed, tripped and checked [in a non-checking league] in pretty much every game I saw him in over the 4 seasons we played together. I'd seen him get multiple concussions in our non-checking rec league.

At this point I had made my way to the opposing blue line and I had enough. The guy who was our general hothead [goon if you prefer] wasn't on the ice and the way the game was going things were already out of hand. The puck bounced to one of their players, right in line with me, and I skated up and planted him with a straight shoulder-to-sternum check. Didn't care that it was 2 minutes, it seemed like it needed to be done.

After that the game was a whole lot cleaner. Less physical, more respect. It's hard to regret what I did that night even though I know it was wrong. The game was getting out of hand, I took an obvious penalty, the game was back under control after that. That's the story of how I became a goon for 15 minutes.

You bring up an interesting part of how to deal with problems on the ice. Hockey is a tough guys sport, we get a penalty for assaulting each other. That said one of the ways to police the game yourself is be prepared for the goons and the hot heads and know how to protect yourself. We've all heard the crys about removing such and such from rec league games but it's not going away. I've been playing for 20 years, you know how many issues I've had with hot heads and goons-none. Why? Because every once in awhile I'll light somebody up or drop the gloves with somebody deserving of punishment. If you know how to handle yourself other players know you're not a guy to mess with or that he's gonna be ready for you if you do. Expect the rough stuff, doesn't mean it's always going to be there but when you go into the corners be prepared for impact, when the score is out of hand be prepared for chippy play and when the refs are having a bad day and let everything go be ready for anything. Expecting every hockey player to be a nice, cordial gentlemen is not really grasping how human beings act on or off the ice. Saying it needs to be removed from the game looks real nice on paper but it's incredibly unrealistic.

tarheelhockey 03-01-2013 09:31 AM

There needs to be a separate division for people who feel like they need to play dirty and fight during recreational hockey.

I'm all for watching that kind of behavior at the highest competitive levels, but when I'm out there trying to work on my shot I don't need some Matthew Barnaby wannabe out there stirring the pot with everybody. The worst is a grown man who pulls that crap. Grow the **** up, you don't have fans, the championship trophy of your obscure beer league is a plastic trinket. All you're doing is agitating strangers who are carrying weapons.

LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FANonymous (Post 60726509)
I generally play a very clean game, I'm talking averaging maybe 2 Penalty Minutes a season, but there is one game I recall where the other team probably thought I was a goon.


After that the game was a whole lot cleaner. Less physical, more respect. It's hard to regret what I did that night even though I know it was wrong. The game was getting out of hand, I took an obvious penalty, the game was back under control after that. That's the story of how I became a goon for 15 minutes.

The issue is that the Refs need to take control of the game at some point, because a hit will result in a brawl 9 out 10 times where I play. You can tell when the refs send players to the box quickly the pressure dies down as people WANT to play instead of sit in the box as we do PAY to play. lol

MJAYK 03-01-2013 09:57 AM

Only time i would understand fighting in recreational hockey is when someone makes a very dangerous play such as boarding or the most obvious knee.

When someone tries to hurt someone really badly, they should answer with fists if they have to.

LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey (Post 60728601)
There needs to be a separate division for people who feel like they need to play dirty and fight during recreational hockey.

I'm all for watching that kind of behavior at the highest competitive levels, but when I'm out there trying to work on my shot I don't need some Matthew Barnaby wannabe out there stirring the pot with everybody. The worst is a grown man who pulls that crap. Grow the **** up, you don't have fans, the championship trophy of your obscure beer league is a plastic trinket. All you're doing is agitating strangers who are carrying weapons.

I completely agree. More or so my head/legs are not insured and I do not really need you to "prove" to me that you can check me in open ice. Some of the behavior is very strange to me because even when I am angry at someone... I tend to just play harder and want to score. Not take their head off.

LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tikkanen (Post 60727659)
You bring up an interesting part of how to deal with problems on the ice. Hockey is a tough guys sport, we get a penalty for assaulting each other. That said one of the ways to police the game yourself is be prepared for the goons and the hot heads and know how to protect yourself. We've all heard the crys about removing such and such from rec league games but it's not going away. I've been playing for 20 years, you know how many issues I've had with hot heads and goons-none. Why? Because every once in awhile I'll light somebody up or drop the gloves with somebody deserving of punishment. If you know how to handle yourself other players know you're not a guy to mess with or that he's gonna be ready for you if you do. Expect the rough stuff, doesn't mean it's always going to be there but when you go into the corners be prepared for impact, when the score is out of hand be prepared for chippy play and when the refs are having a bad day and let everything go be ready for anything. Expecting every hockey player to be a nice, cordial gentlemen is not really grasping how human beings act on or off the ice. Saying it needs to be removed from the game looks real nice on paper but it's incredibly unrealistic.

Being prepared for a bit of contact is one thing... head hunting and starting fights is another. I guess human nature is human nature, but you are not a "pro" nothing to protect here. Have fun. It is a FUN thing, not a career thing. I do not expect it to be cut down but the USA hockey is teaching refs on how to subdue tension and handle hot heads and they are getting better at it every year.

Refs play a huge role in this, but you can tell that some players are just bad apples and should be scorned by teammates as much as by other teams. I hate having to "deal" with other teams anger just because one of my teammates was being stupid.

Fixed to Ruin 03-01-2013 10:19 AM

My team was winning 8-1 and in the final 3 minutes i got hit from behind going into a corner to chase down a loose puck.

The defenseman hit me from behind and the only reason i didn't get severely hurt or maybe paralyzed was because i was able to put my hands up just in time to avoid going completely head first in the boards.

After everything calmed down I asked the guy WTF he was thinking. He told me he had to send a message because we beat them badly.

These questions basically ran inside my head as i sat on the bench...

WTF? What message are you sending? I don't even know who you are? Are we playing each other again?

I started playing ball hockey after that season. I can't sacrifice my livelihood and go into debt and put a burdon on my family because a knuckle dragger needs to send a message to me in a meaningless beer league game.

AcidJazz 03-01-2013 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FANonymous (Post 60726509)
After that the game was a whole lot cleaner. Less physical, more respect. It's hard to regret what I did that night even though I know it was wrong. The game was getting out of hand, I took an obvious penalty, the game was back under control after that. That's the story of how I became a goon for 15 minutes.

It's crappy that stuff like that has to happen for the game to calm down. Last week we were getting killed 13-3 by the top team in the league (as per usual). But their forwards were still going full tilt and cherry picking on every shift. They were also unloading huge high slapshots on our goalie every chance they could get. Just padding their stats like the a-holes they were. I finally had enough. One of the douchenozzles tried to go wide on me and I checked him into the boards right by their bench. I was tempted to keep pushing to dump him in, but I let up. Felt good. Worth the two minutes. My goalie thanked me and they played like gentlemen after that.

That was my second penalty all year.

JR97 03-01-2013 12:44 PM

rec goons are stupid. most of the time it doesn't amount to much in my experience. However, if people get caught up in the BS I'll say something to the refs about it.

Most of the time I'll just get physical with goons and try and draw some PIM's. I dont' really get riled up by that sort of thing. I'm also little so it's not like I can intimidate or deter goonery.

I've only taken matters into my own hands a few times and then it's because it's a 2nd or 3rd offense. The last time was some ****** going into the boards with me with is elbow in my head. First time I said watch the elbow thinking it may have have been incidental. 2nd time I told him he does it again we're "going" and then I yelled at the ref and said he does it again and Im going to instigate. So when it happened the 3rd time I slashed the guy in the back of the leg , un-snapped my lid and called him out. I got a 2 for slashing, 2 for unsporstmanlike and a warning about unsnapping the lid. Had I dropped the lid or gloves I would have been gone. The lid would have been a lengthy suspension or something? I guess that's a newish USA Hockey rule.

jaysoneil 03-01-2013 12:55 PM

A two handed slash across the top of a helmet? Talk about disrespect for the game and the players who play it. That's not fighting, that's assault.

I'm fortunate enough to play on ice that's in a Park District. Fighting will not only get you ejected from the game, but the police will be called and escort you to their car.

Most goon it up because they need attention. If you want to fight in Beer League, schedule a date in the parking lot or at a local bar. Otherwise, quit wasting peoples time who want to actually play the game.

JR97 03-01-2013 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysoneil (Post 60739479)
I'm fortunate enough to play on ice that's in a Park District. Fighting will not only get you ejected from the game, but the police will be called and escort you to their car.

The team that used to goon it up the most in our league was the cop team. :laugh:

In a playoff game, a girl on our team bumped into a girl on their team. But of these girls are damn solid players even in a "men's" league. The cop chick two handed our check across the back of the neck. The cop chick was a vice-cop. Smoking hot, though. But still not an excuse for assault. maybe some chick wrestling,though. I'd have enjoyed that.

LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcidJazz (Post 60734791)
It's crappy that stuff like that has to happen for the game to calm down. Last week we were getting killed 13-3 by the top team in the league (as per usual). But their forwards were still going full tilt and cherry picking on every shift. They were also unloading huge high slapshots on our goalie every chance they could get. Just padding their stats like the a-holes they were. I finally had enough. One of the douchenozzles tried to go wide on me and I checked him into the boards right by their bench. I was tempted to keep pushing to dump him in, but I let up. Felt good. Worth the two minutes. My goalie thanked me and they played like gentlemen after that.

That was my second penalty all year.

There is a difference between checking someone and hurting someone. You can have a love tap here and there, but hurting someone is dumb.

The Tikkanen 03-01-2013 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LastWordArmy (Post 60729929)
Being prepared for a bit of contact is one thing... head hunting and starting fights is another. I guess human nature is human nature, but you are not a "pro" nothing to protect here. Have fun. It is a FUN thing, not a career thing. I do not expect it to be cut down but the USA hockey is teaching refs on how to subdue tension and handle hot heads and they are getting better at it every year.

Refs play a huge role in this, but you can tell that some players are just bad apples and should be scorned by teammates as much as by other teams. I hate having to "deal" with other teams anger just because one of my teammates was being stupid.

I agree with you 100%, I just think it's unrealistic to expect fun games all the time. When I'm on the bench I'll usually try to point out the hot heads or guys with short tempers to prepare my team mates. If we're blowing somebody out I'll remind everybody to keep their head up, watch for cheap shots and don't take a suspension. You can also tell the ref when he's by your bench to watch out for so and so. Try to be proactive about it.

leftwinger37 03-01-2013 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tikkanen (Post 60727659)
Expect the rough stuff, doesn't mean it's always going to be there but when you go into the corners be prepared for impact, when the score is out of hand be prepared for chippy play and when the refs are having a bad day and let everything go be ready for anything. Expecting every hockey player to be a nice, cordial gentlemen is not really grasping how human beings act on or off the ice. Saying it needs to be removed from the game looks real nice on paper but it's incredibly unrealistic.

Solid points. I've always been of this mindset and I feel like it's something that's lost on most players nowadays. You have accept some responsibility to assess situations and prevent yourself from becoming vulnerable. Yes, it sucks that it has to be that way and yes, there are some situations that are unavoidable, but that's life.

A couple of years ago, my team was running up the score in a playoff game and we could see the other team was starting to get frustrated. We starting backing off a little because we had the game in hand and their season was effectively over, but I had a feeling that something was going to happen. What I didn't know was that some guy on the other team (he was probably about 6'3" 250 lbs, I am 6'1" 210 lbs) was going to randomly grab me by the earloops and start using my skull like a heavy bag. Unprovoked? Yes. Unfair? You betcha. But I'll tell you what, the ref certainly wasn't about to step in front of this guy whether fighting was legal or not.


Whether on the ice or in every day life, crimes are commited because some people do not have any regard for the rules in the heat of the moment.

mistrhanky 03-01-2013 04:01 PM

There have been several times where a team is running it up on us and I was looking for an excuse to bounce someone around a little... but in the end I have never been able to do it because it would have required taking a cheap shot on someone. I wanted to do it... I just could not pull the trigger. In the end, I always feel better afterward for not doing it, but it would be a lie to say that I wasn't looking for a triggering action at times. Just a competitive nature/frustration thing.

AcidJazz 03-01-2013 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LastWordArmy (Post 60742639)
There is a difference between checking someone and hurting someone. You can have a love tap here and there, but hurting someone is dumb.

It definitely was just a check. Didn't even get a bodychecking penalty, but an interference call.

Danglous 03-01-2013 04:21 PM

There have been a few games where the whole team wanted to drop the gloves with me. I dont consider myself a goon, Im just a physical D-man who works hard, knows how to use the body and knows a million little tricks to get guys off their game and out of position, especially in front of the net. I dont chirp and dont hunt heads but theres something about my game that gets under guys skin, and I love it :P

Recently I played a few games for a full check mens rec league and to my surprise, the games were much less chippy than a no-contact game. The guys police themselves out there, and there is a level of mutual respect among the players. Not to mention its 25x more fun.

predfan24 03-01-2013 05:31 PM

Why are there Beer league goons? Well there are D-bags in all aspects in life and even though most hockey people are good people that doesn't make Rec hockey the exception to the rule. Luckily for me I would say in all the leagues I have played in I would say 95%+ of all players are logical and understand how to play hard but not dirty.

When the other 5% starts doing there thing if you have competent refs that care it usually gets resolved before anything crazy happens. However once in a blue moon I will see the combo of an incredibly stupid player and a ref who doesn't give a **** and won't control the game.

Here is where the debate ensues. Should you stoop to the other guys level? Protect yourself? Should you just try to ignore the guy?

IMO at a certain point you have to stand up for yourself and/or your teammates. The thing is a lot of these goons are the same type of person who was a relentless bully as an adolescent or the same type of guy who will pick on you at work. History has shown that ignoring these people doesn't necessarily make them stop. At a certain point you have to stand up for yourself. This is true in life period not just in hockey.

These situations are so rare I don't worry about them. I can only think of 2 incidences in the past 5-7 years and when I think about how many games I've played in that time period it has to be around 250-350. Both times I have had incidences it had to do with one of these goons spearing/slashing me or my teammate in the crotch. I simply do not tolerate stuff like that.

For another example if somebody two hand tomahawk chopped me across the head like the video in the link posted by the OP. Someone would have to physically restrain me because I would literally try hurt that guy.

Renbarg 03-01-2013 06:40 PM

I should qualify this by saying I'm not a goon, I've never actually fought. But as horrible as it sounds, I kind of enjoy when my beer league team gets into it with the other team. Its kind of like that school yard crap when there is a fight.

LastWordArmy 03-01-2013 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistrhanky (Post 60750027)
There have been several times where a team is running it up on us and I was looking for an excuse to bounce someone around a little... but in the end I have never been able to do it because it would have required taking a cheap shot on someone. I wanted to do it... I just could not pull the trigger. In the end, I always feel better afterward for not doing it, but it would be a lie to say that I wasn't looking for a triggering action at times. Just a competitive nature/frustration thing.

I respect that and we all do get angry. Hockey in general is very physical sport. I just think that sometimes some players lose their mind. It takes more to not take a cheap shot than take one.

iamjs 03-01-2013 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danglous (Post 60750987)
There have been a few games where the whole team wanted to drop the gloves with me. I dont consider myself a goon, Im just a physical D-man who works hard, knows how to use the body and knows a million little tricks to get guys off their game and out of position, especially in front of the net. I dont chirp and dont hunt heads but theres something about my game that gets under guys skin, and I love it :P

there's a difference between contact in front of the net and some dude who thinks he's some NHL prospect; how he has to show the rec league world that could hit like Scott Stevens but never got his chance for whatever reason.

I switch between C and LW a lot, but when I go in front of the net, I fully expect contact in our no-contact league. However, there's a fine line between some contact, some battling for position with the occasional shove, and some out of shape hack who thinks he's Paul Bunyan and is trying to chop my short legs down like I'm a **** redwood.

The message sending also applies to the beginning of games too. We had a game about 2-3 years ago where I started and scored about 30 seconds in on a shot that hit crossbar before going in. After scoring I get shoved by one of their players into the boards, yelling at me for shooting high and headhunting their goalie, who was easily a few inches shorter than me. Told this dude that if I was going for his **** head I would have hit him (probably not true :laugh:) Long story short, found out later that he did this a few more times later in the season and was later suspended.

Ozz 03-01-2013 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamjs (Post 60767087)
there's a difference between contact in front of the net and some dude who thinks he's some NHL prospect; how he has to show the rec league world that could hit like Scott Stevens but never got his chance for whatever reason.

I switch between C and LW a lot, but when I go in front of the net, I fully expect contact in our no-contact league. However, there's a fine line between some contact, some battling for position with the occasional shove, and some out of shape hack who thinks he's Paul Bunyan and is trying to chop my short legs down like I'm a **** redwood.

The message sending also applies to the beginning of games too. We had a game about 2-3 years ago where I started and scored about 30 seconds in on a shot that hit crossbar before going in. After scoring I get shoved by one of their players into the boards, yelling at me for shooting high and headhunting their goalie, who was easily a few inches shorter than me. Told this dude that if I was going for his **** head I would have hit him (probably not true :laugh:) Long story short, found out later that he did this a few more times later in the season and was later suspended.

Sounds like he might need a puck his own head :sarcasm:


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