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-   -   The Defenseman Acquisition Thread | Part I: Creating a Defense that is "no Soff" (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1363609)

Darth Vitale 03-01-2013 10:23 AM

The Defenseman Acquisition Thread | Part I: Creating a Defense that is "no Soff"
 
Exhibits A-D:
http://i.imgur.com/42hXE7z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xMwYQiR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DtpsJrP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XWl0cXd.jpg

Exhibit E:



Conclushun: We need better D.


Ready.... DISCUSS! (And yinz keep it clean.)

12IsGreaterThan47 03-01-2013 10:26 AM

The Personnel isn't the issue in my not-so-humble and never-incorrect opinion.

Darth Vitale 03-01-2013 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcedCapp (Post 60730997)
The Personnel isn't the issue in my not-so-humble and never-incorrect opinion.

Are you saying Da System is SOff??

I think there's an argument to be made that Orpik's best days are behind him and that he's already begun to slow down / has a hard time doing his job in front of the net.

There's also an argument to be made Niskanen is a decent D but small / soff, and a potentially valuable trade asset because he still has some upside.

There's a further argument that while Despres is probably able to handle playoff pressure having already experienced it and having played well for the most part this year, its looking like maybe Bortuzzo can't (yet) hack it.

IMO acquiriing a physically strong D who can play 2nd pairing minutes, is almost as important (in light of our most embarrassing losses this year) as getting one more skilled winger.

pens877158 03-01-2013 10:30 AM

I think we need a guy like Regher to clear the out the crease

plaidchuck 03-01-2013 10:31 AM

Agree 100% with CV. Sucks how this season we went from just needing one crucial forward piece to now most likely needing to replace two top pair defensemen.

ColePens 03-01-2013 10:32 AM

The defense is fine. The system is not.

- ColePens

deakka 03-01-2013 10:33 AM

The sad part is that defense is where i saw our strenght, hence having the extra pieces to move for a forward (i.e Despres, Niskanen). After last nights debacle, im not so sure we can move a defenseman without getting another defenseman back.

radapex 03-01-2013 10:33 AM

Well, for one, something needs to be done about Bylsma's system. It's been in place since after the cup win, and the only defensive defenseman to play in it (Michalek) looked like garbage. They need to be better coached defensively before any personnel changes will even matter.

Darth Vitale 03-01-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plaidchuck (Post 60731263)
Agree 100% with CV. Sucks how this season we went from just needing one crucial forward piece to now most likely needing to replace two top pair defensemen.

I wouldn't go that far. There's no way I'm giving up on Letang at this point (except as PPQB). But you could argue acquiring a legit #2 or #3 D (strong, stay at home type - nothing flashy) would be a big help do this team.

Orpik is a first pairing guy so maybe 1 if he can't turn it around, and Niskanen is never going to be a legit first pairing guy, is a 2nd/3rd pairing "tweener" type IMO.

Jaded-Fan 03-01-2013 10:35 AM

I have been saying for two years it is the system. And defense is not only defensemen but forwards as well. If you turn the puck over with a blind drop pass to no one, or with a stretch pass that fails, creating an odd man break the other way, how is a bright and shiny new defenseman going to fix that?

We have a LOT of talent on this team defensively. Some of it fairly young, but talent none the less. We can make do with the players we have, but the system we have will not go far in the playoffs. Several of us have been screaming this for years now.

Darth Vitale 03-01-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 60731317)
The defense is fine. The system is not.

- ColePens

You telling me you wouldn't feel better moving someone undersized like Niskanen for someone who is more of a banger but still decent on his skates?

mpp9 03-01-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 60731493)
You telling me you wouldn't feel better moving someone undersized like Niskanen for someone who is more of a banger but still decent on his skates?

Despres?

And I'd pack Orpik's bags now if Shero can get a big body replacement at the deadline. Not seeing a whole lot of difference between him and Regehr at this point.

Jaded-Fan 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 60731493)
You telling me you wouldn't feel better moving someone undersized like Niskanen for someone who is more of a banger but still decent on his skates?

If I take a Ferrari, and try and use it to tow a two ton boat, do I scream that the Ferrari sucks because the bumper came off?

You can trade for all the defensemen in the world, and if the system is broken in some fundamental way they will fail as much as the current batch is failing.

Luigi Lemieux 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 60731317)
The defense is fine. The system is not.

- ColePens

The personnel is just okay. For a contending team it should definitely be upgraded. I agree the system makes our team defense look horrific, but system or not our dmen get manhandled along the boards physically. I'm fully on board with trading Niskanen while his value is still relatively high.

Tender Rip 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

Orpik Martin
Despres Letang
Engelland Bortuzzo

That defense played hard and the team looked great for the four games they were together. You can put Niskanen on the third pairing with either of the two there, and he will be a differencemaker and guarantee that someone can outlet the puck - not totally unlike Gogo was in the past.

What is clear is that you cannot play Niskanen Letang against physical opposition. It should have always been clear.

And while getting a veteran defenseman would also be on my list of priorities for the deadline if we look decent for a run, right now it should be all about making sure what we have with the Despres/Letang pairing and insuring that Bortuzzo gets enough games to be one we can count on both on the third pairing and particularly for next season.

Again - it is not the individual quality of our defenders and it wasn't last year, which I kept repeating when talking about Martin-Michalek. To some extent it is a matter of finding the right - compatible - pairings, but more so it is about changing the defensive system to something the players can understand/execute instead of the constant carnival of errors.

It is beyond me how this can even be in question still.

JQR 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

I am hesitant to blame it on the system when you can have a guy like Paul Martin playing that system effectively. I'm putting the majority of the burden on the players. Stop playing like you're confused. Honestly, this is not new stuff here. The system is not to blame for Letang making god-awful decisions and turning the puck over every other possession. The system is not to blame for Orpik (who wears a damn A on his sweater) not being able to clear the zone with all the time in the world.

radapex 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 60731493)
You telling me you wouldn't feel better moving someone undersized like Niskanen for someone who is more of a banger but still decent on his skates?

I'd be more inclined to move Orpik for a more defensive option than I would Niskanen, for this season anyway.

Niskanen, on the other hand, should replace Letang on the #1 PP. He's less risky than Letang, plus he can actually get shots through.

plaidchuck 03-01-2013 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 60731435)
I wouldn't go that far. There's no way I'm giving up on Letang at this point (except as PPQB). But you could argue acquiring a legit #2 or #3 D (strong, stay at home type - nothing flashy) would be a big help do this team.

Orpik is a first pairing guy so maybe 1 if he can't turn it around, and Niskanen is never going to be a legit first pairing guy, is a 2nd/3rd pairing "tweener" type IMO.

Sorry I meant two top 4 so I was looking at Niskanen and Orpik. Based on the deal I'd even let Martin go if the return was good enough.

KIRK 03-01-2013 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Rip (Post 60731657)
Orpik Martin
Despres Letang
Engelland Bortuzzo

That defense played hard and the team looked great for the four games they were together. You can put Niskanen on the third pairing with either of the two there, and he will be a differencemaker and guarantee that someone can outlet the puck - not totally unlike Gogo was in the past.

What is clear is that you cannot play Niskanen Letang against physical opposition. It should have always been clear.

And while getting a veteran defenseman would also be on my list of priorities for the deadline if we look decent for a run, right now it should be all about making sure what we have with the Despres/Letang pairing and insuring that Bortuzzo gets enough games to be one we can count on both on the third pairing and particularly for next season.

Again - it is not the individual quality of our defenders and it wasnøt last year. To some extent it is a matter of finding the right - compatible - pairings, but more so it is about changing the defensive system to something the players can understand/execute instead of the constant carnival of errors.

It is beyond me how this can even be in question still
.

Uh, because Dan Bylsma controls the lineup card. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 60731317)
The defense is fine. The system is not.

- ColePens

THIS. Now, don't confuse 'fine' with 'top'. But, with another system designed to better exploit the collection of talent, it would be fine for a playoff run.

Side question: Is there a harder job for a general manager in hockey than finding players who fit Bylsma's system?

Jaded-Fan 03-01-2013 10:41 AM

Maybe Michalek is available. He sounds just like what you are talking about. I wonder what it would cost to get him from Phoenix in a trade.

Captain Hook 03-01-2013 10:44 AM

Michalek was soft too. I don't miss his snow angel act. Not what we need.

KIRK 03-01-2013 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan (Post 60731845)
Maybe Michalek is available. He sounds just like what you are talking about. I wonder what it would cost to get him from Phoenix in a trade.

I'd give a first, Bylsma, and Cammy Granato if they sent back Michalek and Dave King.

quins 03-01-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColePens (Post 60731317)
The defense is fine. The system is not.

- ColePens

This x 100000

radapex 03-01-2013 10:56 AM

On the topic of personnel, I wouldn't mind seeing Shero go after Ron Hainsey. I know his reputation among fans isn't the greatest, and he's got a $4.5-million cap hit (which he's in the final year of), but he's be a solid 2nd or 3rd pairing defensive defenseman.

Shady Machine 03-01-2013 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 60731493)
You telling me you wouldn't feel better moving someone undersized like Niskanen for someone who is more of a banger but still decent on his skates?

Yeah that's fine, but when 2 goals are scored from the high slot, that's the forwards responsibility as well. So it's a system issue or guys just not picking up a man.


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