HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Philadelphia Flyers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   How Underrated is Luke Schenn? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1364301)

WeekendAtBernies 03-02-2013 12:28 AM

How Underrated is Luke Schenn?
 
I think most Flyers fans realize that Luke Schenn has in fact played very well for us and has been fun to watch, as he crushes pretty much everything that moves, but I don't think many of us realize just how good this guy has been for our team, both offensively and defensively.

While Luke Schenn does not play the Powerplay at this time (which is where many of the so-called "elite" puckmoving defensemen pick up the majority of their points), he does play the hardest even-strength and PK minutes on the team and despite playing against the hardest competition, he has fared quite well, dare I even say his even-strength and PK play is bordering on elite?

Without further ado though, I'll let the stats speak for themselves.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leads NHL Defensemen in Hits
17th in NHL in Blocked Shots
Leads all Flyers defensemen in Even-Strength points (6) and Even-Strength goals (2).

Has more Even-Strength Points than: Edler, Carle, Weber, Campbell, Seabrook, Mike Green, Duncan Keith, Phaneuf, Doughty, Myers, Bogosian, Justin Schultz, Subban, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Erik Johnson, Fowler, Pitkanen, MDZ, Alzner

Has more Even-Strength Goals than: Campbell, Justin Schultz, Pietrangelo, Wideman, Carle, Subban, Marc Staal, Girardi, Bogosian, Alzner, Shattenkirk, Timonen, Suter, Byfuglien, Boyle, Keith, Markov, Doughty, Jack Johnson, Dougie Hamilton, Kulikov, Gudbranson, Erik Johnson, Fowler, Pitkanen, Hamhuis

At Even-Strength?
+8.3 Corsi Relative (2nd on team to Kimmo Timonen)

+1.144 Corsi Relative Quality of Competition (Hardest Competition Faced on team)

Team Scores 3.12 Goals /60 when on Ice (Best among Flyers’ defensemen)

Team Scores 2.00 Goals/60 when off Ice (Lowest figure for any Flyers’ Defenseman)

Team Gives Up 2.30 Goals Against/60 when On Ice (2nd best on team to Grossmann)

Team Gives up 2.95 Goals Against/60 when Off Ice (Highest figure for any Flyers’ Defenseman)

On the PK?
+8.4 Corsi Relative (Best on Team; every other defenseman on the team has a negative Corsi Relative)

+3.905 Corsi Relative Quality of Competition (Hardest Competition Faced on team)

3.46 Goals Against/60 when on Ice (Best among Flyers’ PKing defensemen)

3.74: For comparison’s sake, this is Braydon Coburn’s Goals Against/60 at even-strength

8.76: For comparison’s sake, this is the amount of Goals Against/60 that we allow when Schenn is off the ice during a PK.
------------------------------------------------------------


Mods: I figured this deserved it's own thread since it's a semi-long statistical analysis. If you disagree, feel free to stick it in the Luke Schenn thread or the JVR/Schenn thread.

FLYguy3911 03-02-2013 12:40 AM

He's been good. He's still turnover prone and gets caught flat footed at times (JVR goal). But is comparing advance stats against his own teammates really a good barometer? It's not exactly a star studded group back there.

Larry44 03-02-2013 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies (Post 60774823)
I think most Flyers fans realize that Luke Schenn has in fact played very well for us and has been fun to watch, as he crushes pretty much everything that moves, but I don't think many of us realize just how good this guy has been for our team, both offensively and defensively.

I do, WAB, but thanks for the analysis. Luke has been outstanding. When the other teams buzz, he's had the composure to just knock someone off the puck and get it out.

He played a big role in that Wash. game, as did Grossmann, when it looked like the Caps were going to mount some pressure, he just nailed a couple guys and they went away.

I'm that old that I can remember a Flyers team that had two great big stocky killers back on D: Van Impe and Moose.

Luke's value as Kimmo's partner cannot be overstated - and vice versa. Every guy in the league saw him fight Vinnie for taking a shot a Kimmo. Every night he lets them know there is a price to pay for running him. And Kimmo will be a great tutor for him.

JVR is a great player having a great year, but we really need what Luke brings more. 20+ minutes against the toughest opponents. Brayden Schenn is playing great, smart, skilled hockey too. Good acquisitions.

OzFlyers 03-02-2013 01:43 AM

Queue the "How Underrated is Grossmann" thread.

League leader in blocked shots. Perhaps the #1-2 Defenceman on the Flyers??

WeekendAtBernies 03-02-2013 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzFlyer (Post 60776431)
Queue the "How Underrated is Grossmann" thread.

League leader in blocked shots. Perhaps the #1-2 Defenceman on the Flyers??

Not quite. Blocked shots is pretty much where the argument for Grossmann ends. 4th in Corsi QoC, 4th in Rel Corsi, he has 48.2% of his shifts start in the offensive zone but only finishes 42.9% there. He's also pretty much a black hole for offense. His PKing is decent, but he faces easier competition than Schenn and doesn't do as good a job @ limiting goals.

Grossmann is a good defenseman, no doubt, but he's not the #1 or #2 on the Flyers.

Beef Invictus 03-02-2013 02:07 AM

Schenn has shown some great potential this year. Grossmann has also shown some good play. Hopefully neither is a flash in the pan.

OzFlyers 03-02-2013 02:36 AM

Pretty happy with both Luke and Grossmann for a team that is reportedly so bad on D!

Ironmanrulez 03-02-2013 04:02 AM

*push ironic button*

How can Grossman and Schenn be that good, when the 0.90% of Bryz is the fault of all the bad defense by this team?

They are crap and will never be elite in anything!

Grossman only has so much blocked shots because Bryz told him where he must stand and Schenn only have good stats because Bryzgalov Monster keep every puck out of the net, when Schenn is on the ice!

Thats the truth... live with it!

*push the button another time*


Grossman is devensively responsible as anyone in the league! I really like his game against the pens and wash. He can step up in the big games and he can hit like a fright train! All his blocked shots are really important for this team. He will be better after he get rid of his small injuries! He will be more important in the play offs, like Coburn every year!

Schenn is exactly what i had hoped for! Mean, strong, solid in puck moving and plays big minutes! Also he takes rarely a penalty with his big hits! For me he is the most important player on the team after Giroux. Sure he wasn´t that good without Timonen! But other Guys wasn´t that good with Timonen so he deserves the credit!!

Schenn will be one of the best #2 dman in the league when he stay with this development!

Love the trade and love that we are getting rid of JVR. The Contract was horrible. He must show that he can score the whole season. I´am not sure he can!

StandingCow 03-02-2013 04:24 AM

I think the change of scenery did both players a lot of good. JvR is doing well in Toronto and Luke is doing well here, so he is probably feeling a bit less pressure.

BobbyClarkeFan16 03-02-2013 06:07 AM

Schenn just needed to get out of Toronto. He was pretty much in Ron Wilson's dog house from day one and after last season, you could see the look exasperation on his face. No matter what he did, it was never good enough. He needed to come to a place where he was going to be able to play and if he made a mistake, he wasn't going to be crucified for it.

At the start of this season, he was more prone to turnovers, but that's starting to come around now. He's really simplified his game here and he's playing within his strengths. You can also see that his positioning has gotten much better and he's now picking his spots when to make the big hit. Pronger, Timonen, and McCarthy all deserve credit for helping Schenn turn his game around. They've been instrumental in helping him simplify things and instructing him on picking his spots when to deliver big hits.

The rest of the league is noticing Schenn's marked improvement as well. I'm noticing more and more that when players go into a corner and Schenn's on the ice, the opposition has their head on swivel and they try to get out ASAP. Schenn's finally getting it and I agree that he will be the elite shut down defenseman that was expected of him when he was drafted. The human eraser is living up to his nickname.

Cuiff 03-02-2013 07:43 AM

I like Luke's game and hopes he continues to develop into a top defensemen

DrinkFightFlyers 03-02-2013 08:07 AM

Big Luke Schenn fan (both Schenns, really). I don't know how he is viewed outside of Philly fans, but because of the trade people are always going to have him under a microscope. He'll always be underrated by some people who were big fans of JvR. The better JvR does, the more he'll be underrated by others. I think he is a top pair potential defenseman. I don't know if he'll ever reach that, but he has that potential.

HeadShot 03-02-2013 08:10 AM

The turnaround JVR has shown in Toronto is equal to the turnaround or should I say resurgence of Luke Schenn. Im very happy to see him on this team and although JVR seems to have found his game in Toronto due to more ice time and a bigger role, I still like Schenn coming here and adding much needed snarl on our blue line.

fauxflex 03-02-2013 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzFlyer (Post 60776431)
Queue the "How Underrated is Grossmann" thread.

League leader in blocked shots. Perhaps the #1-2 Defenceman on the Flyers??

I've been super impressed with Grossman. He's been solid defensively, which most of us know. He also makes some good keeps in the offensive zone to help preserve offensive posession...but I think the most underrated part of his game is his puck moving ability, especially from the defensive zone and off of faceoffs...he consistently makes swift, decisive skating and passing plays to get to loose pucks and move them up the ice. I would go so far as to say that I would give him the edge to say, a Matt Carle in this regard. Love me some Grossman!

Schenn has been strong to quite strong. He hits everything, without getting too far out of position, makes solid puck moving plays and can shoot. He's coming along very nicely and, in time, could emerge as a borderline dominant force along the blueline for the Flyers. :yo: Right now he's a solid #2/3 type imo.

Krishna 03-02-2013 09:34 AM

Luke's undergoing what's called the HFboards effect

Once a player has a reputation for anything, he can't lose it

JackStraw 03-02-2013 10:07 AM

I wasn't overjoyed with the trade when it went down, but I'm very happy with Schenn as a Flyer. We haven't really had someone like that back there since Hatcher (when he could still sort of move around).

orange is better 03-02-2013 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krishna (Post 60782185)
Luke's undergoing what's called the HFboards effect

Once a player has a reputation for anything, he can't lose it

Just like the hfboards notion that once someone makes a claim about an individual player, it suddenly become the consensus HF opinion.

People just like to use the consensus instead of actually formulating opinions for themselves based on observstion and before long it becomes incredibly arbitrary and no one actually knows how to support those claims.

Sterling31 03-02-2013 10:22 AM

That is Luke for you though. Loved the guy. He will be tops on hits and blocked shots for his whole career.

If you can deal with his odd giveaways, he will be a main stay on your team. He will likely never awe you with anything, but he makes the simple plays that get the job done. His moose-like frame and desire to win at all cost, all while sticking up for his teammates at any corner; should adhere him to any fanbase he wears the jersey for.

Sundinisagod 03-02-2013 11:15 AM

Glad, and not surprised, to see Luke getting his mojo back now that he is no longer having his confidence crushed by Ron Wilson. He played great as a rookie for the Leafs, after that Wilson got to him...I knew the Philly fans would come to love this guy, not that it takes a genius to figure that out.

rban* 03-02-2013 11:17 AM

With the likes of Luke and Grossman back there, our shut down needs are solved for many yrs. Now the requirement seems to be more offense from the D, which will evaporate when Timo moves on. Are Cobrun and Meszaros good enough?

The problem is, nobody sees a Top 4 of Gross, Schenn, Mesz and Coburn as a Cup winning Top 4.

So what do we need to change to make it so? Dump Meszaros and ge someone better? Who? Yandle?

Would Bryz plus a Yandle-Corburn-Gross-Schenn Top 4 be good enough for a Cup?

Giroux tha Damaja 03-02-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rban (Post 60785361)
Would Bryz plus a Yandle-Corburn-Gross-Schenn Top 4 be good enough for a Cup?

With Gus and Mez on the bottom pairing and this team scoring the way they can? Yes, possibly.

rban* 03-02-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja (Post 60789673)
With Gus and Mez on the bottom pairing and this team scoring the way they can? Yes, possibly.

No we cannot afford both Meszaros and Yandle. Mesz costs way too much to be a 5th or bottom pairing Dman.

I was assuming dump Meszaros and go after Yandle.

BTW most teams that win a Cup have a bottom pairing Dman which is next to worthless. Your top 4 plays the most icetime and has the biggest imoact.

OR if you wanna keep Meszaros so bad, you'd have to get rid of one of Schenn/Coburn/Grossman to make space for Yandle... but I suspect that people would rather dump Meszaros than one of those three.

Giroux tha Damaja 03-02-2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rban (Post 60811733)
No we cannot afford both Meszaros and Yandle. Mesz costs way too much to be a 5th or bottom pairing Dman.

I was assuming dump Meszaros and go after Yandle.

BTW most teams that win a Cup have a bottom pairing Dman which is next to worthless. Your top 4 plays the most icetime and has the biggest imoact.

I don't think there's one formula for a cup. But I don't think that top four is good enough to win without a decent third pairing to play some real minutes. When you're rolling Pronger -Carle, Timonen - Coburn, and they're killing it as your top 4, then you might be able to get away with a crap third pairing (but not a ******** goalie).

Yandle is an upgrade over Mez, surely. But I don't think he's enough of an upgrade to justify doing what it would take to get him. Healthy Mezsaros can be a pretty damn good defensemen, if you can keep him that way.

Hockeypete49 03-02-2013 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies (Post 60774823)
I think most Flyers fans realize that Luke Schenn has in fact played very well for us and has been fun to watch, as he crushes pretty much everything that moves, but I don't think many of us realize just how good this guy has been for our team, both offensively and defensively.

While Luke Schenn does not play the Powerplay at this time (which is where many of the so-called "elite" puckmoving defensemen pick up the majority of their points), he does play the hardest even-strength and PK minutes on the team and despite playing against the hardest competition, he has fared quite well, dare I even say his even-strength and PK play is bordering on elite?

Without further ado though, I'll let the stats speak for themselves.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leads NHL Defensemen in Hits
17th in NHL in Blocked Shots
Leads all Flyers defensemen in Even-Strength points (6) and Even-Strength goals (2).

Has more Even-Strength Points than: Edler, Carle, Weber, Campbell, Seabrook, Mike Green, Duncan Keith, Phaneuf, Doughty, Myers, Bogosian, Justin Schultz, Subban, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Erik Johnson, Fowler, Pitkanen, MDZ, Alzner

Has more Even-Strength Goals than: Campbell, Justin Schultz, Pietrangelo, Wideman, Carle, Subban, Marc Staal, Girardi, Bogosian, Alzner, Shattenkirk, Timonen, Suter, Byfuglien, Boyle, Keith, Markov, Doughty, Jack Johnson, Dougie Hamilton, Kulikov, Gudbranson, Erik Johnson, Fowler, Pitkanen, Hamhuis

At Even-Strength?
+8.3 Corsi Relative (2nd on team to Kimmo Timonen)

+1.144 Corsi Relative Quality of Competition (Hardest Competition Faced on team)

Team Scores 3.12 Goals /60 when on Ice (Best among Flyers’ defensemen)

Team Scores 2.00 Goals/60 when off Ice (Lowest figure for any Flyers’ Defenseman)

Team Gives Up 2.30 Goals Against/60 when On Ice (2nd best on team to Grossmann)

Team Gives up 2.95 Goals Against/60 when Off Ice (Highest figure for any Flyers’ Defenseman)

On the PK?
+8.4 Corsi Relative (Best on Team; every other defenseman on the team has a negative Corsi Relative)

+3.905 Corsi Relative Quality of Competition (Hardest Competition Faced on team)

3.46 Goals Against/60 when on Ice (Best among Flyers’ PKing defensemen)

3.74: For comparison’s sake, this is Braydon Coburn’s Goals Against/60 at even-strength

8.76: For comparison’s sake, this is the amount of Goals Against/60 that we allow when Schenn is off the ice during a PK.
------------------------------------------------------------


Mods: I figured this deserved it's own thread since it's a semi-long statistical analysis. If you disagree, feel free to stick it in the Luke Schenn thread or the JVR/Schenn thread.

The young man has been a beast for us. People who really know the game understand what he brings to the table. You win with players like him and I hope he is here for years to come.

William Hylander 03-02-2013 08:05 PM

Luke is a good defensive d-man and I wouldn't call him underrated because this has been known for a number of years. In Toronto Wilson's system really threw him outta the frying pan and into the fire as a young player. People were calling him Adam Foote right out of the draft. Playing in Toronto he faced alot of pressure and he played well considering it.

He needs some help though I find because he does not have great footspeed, and he sometimes gets carried away and gets himself out of position in the D-Zone when I watched him through the years. Timmonen's skating and awareness really help him and Timmo is by far the best defenseman Schenn has ever been paired with in his career, so don't forget to give his partner some love.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.