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-   -   Mario Lemieux at age 18. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1367635)

Seanconn* 03-05-2013 08:33 AM

Mario Lemieux at age 18.
 
Had Mario been allowed to play in the NHL one year early, what type of production could we have expected out of him? Would he have been able to crack 100 points as a 18 ear old rookie?

I think he would have.

* edit: turns out Lemieux was 19 his entire rookie season, I simply meant would Lemieux had been able to crack 100 points in 1983/1984, the season before his actual rookie season.

Gretzky had 102 points in the WHA starting off a 17 year old, didn't he? So Mario scoring 100 at the NHL level starting off as an 18 year old, doesn't seem like a real big stretch.

I'm simply just wondering if people think Mario would have still been able to have a 100 point rookie season, had his rookie season in 1983/1984.

also, why didn't he play in that season to begin with? Were 18 year olds not allowed to play back then?

Darth Yoda 03-05-2013 08:42 AM

Considering he scored 100 in his real rookie season i find it hard to believe, especially becouse he in reality was 19 during his first season. I think he had the same problems as Thornton as rookie, although he surely would have done better than Joe at any age group.

Hardyvan123 03-05-2013 08:43 AM

Well he had a 100 in 73 games in 85, so sure he could have but others could have as well, like Bure, Crosby, Gretzky and Lindros.

blamebettman* 03-05-2013 11:11 AM

No, he was already 19 by the time he played his first NHL game.

Even if he played in 83-84 he would've played that entire season at 18.

Only if he played in 82-83 would he be 17...and that just turning 17, at the start of the NHL season.

However I do think he would've been good enough to play in the NHL at 17. He was already 6'1 or so by then and well over 200. Though he probably would've "only" been a 50-60 point player or so.

Canadiens1958 03-05-2013 12:01 PM

Physical Maturity
 
Teenagers simply do not have the physical maturity to play against men/adults over the course of an 80 game regular season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lemiema01.html

Look at Mario Lemieux's stats as a 15 year old in midget AAA playing against his peers, within 12 months. Look at the PIM totals and compare to his first year in the Q. Big difference when 19 and 20 year olds are part of the picture and they are not physically mature.

Then look at the ratio of ESG vs PPG vs SHG and you will see the difference to his last two junior years.

Simply at 17 Mario Lemieux was not physically ready for the NHL.

Big Phil 03-05-2013 10:42 PM

At 17 he was a 184 point scorer in the QMJHL in 1982-'83. I don't think that translates into 100 points in the NHL, however Crosby in his draft year at 17 had 168 points and then a 102 point NHL season as an 18 year old. Crosby was a year older but you can sort of use that as a template there. As a 17 year old I think Mario would start off strong before teams would be able to figure him out. He was a kid and he would have been easily rattled and knocked off his game. There were many times over the course of his career we saw a veteran Mario get knocked off his game mentally in the NHL due to some pest. So I could see someone like Ken Linseman making life difficult for him. Also, he wasn't fully grown at 17.

Preisst* 03-05-2013 11:45 PM

What year was it when Lemieux turned down playing for Canada in the WJC saying that it would jeopardize his chance to set the single season scoring record? Would suggest he wasn't mentally mature enough to play in the NHL yet as well as the physical side of things.

Seanconn* 03-06-2013 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 61072135)
At 17 he was a 184 point scorer in the QMJHL in 1982-'83. I don't think that translates into 100 points in the NHL, however Crosby in his draft year at 17 had 168 points and then a 102 point NHL season as an 18 year old. Crosby was a year older but you can sort of use that as a template there. As a 17 year old I think Mario would start off strong before teams would be able to figure him out. He was a kid and he would have been easily rattled and knocked off his game. There were many times over the course of his career we saw a veteran Mario get knocked off his game mentally in the NHL due to some pest. So I could see someone like Ken Linseman making life difficult for him. Also, he wasn't fully grown at 17.

I thought he was a 282 point scorer at 17. Sorry, I just assumed Mario would have been 18 year old in his NHL rookie season, and that his monster Q season was when he was 17 lol.

maybe I should change the name of the thread?

So, Would Mario Lemieux have scored at least 100 points in the 1983-1984 season, had he been eligible to play?

alko 03-06-2013 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preisst (Post 61077803)
What year was it when Lemieux turned down playing for Canada in the WJC saying that it would jeopardize his chance to set the single season scoring record?

Hm, i answer with question. In what season broke ML the scoring record in QMJHL?

Canadiens1958 03-06-2013 09:24 AM

Wjc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 61072135)
At 17 he was a 184 point scorer in the QMJHL in 1982-'83. I don't think that translates into 100 points in the NHL, however Crosby in his draft year at 17 had 168 points and then a 102 point NHL season as an 18 year old. Crosby was a year older but you can sort of use that as a template there. As a 17 year old I think Mario would start off strong before teams would be able to figure him out. He was a kid and he would have been easily rattled and knocked off his game. There were many times over the course of his career we saw a veteran Mario get knocked off his game mentally in the NHL due to some pest. So I could see someone like Ken Linseman making life difficult for him. Also, he wasn't fully grown at 17.

Lemieux and Gretzky both played in the WJC as 17 year olds, Gretzky was younger. Compare their performance. Gretzky 17 points in 6 games, Lemieux, 10 points in 7 games.

Mario Lemieux at 18, last junior season, was much stronger but still not at an NHL level.

Canadiens1958 03-06-2013 10:09 AM

Mark Messier
 
Take a look at Mark Messier's age and stats in the WHA to appreciate the difficulty a 17 or a pre draft 18 year old would have playing against men in the NHL.

Yamaguchi* 03-06-2013 01:28 PM

Mario Lemieux would have tallied 31 goals and 48 assists. total= 79 points

Preisst* 03-06-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alko (Post 61084679)
Hm, i answer with question. In what season broke ML the scoring record in QMJHL?

I can answer that quite easily but the point I was making was that by putting a personal agenda ahead of his national team it proves that due to his mental and selfish maturity level at that time that he was not ready to play with the men and that he was still basically a little boy.

In effect I was answering the question in the OP that M Lemieux was no where near ready to play in the NHL at the age of 18.

MadLuke 03-06-2013 05:47 PM

The fact than a one year older Lemieux had just 100 points is a strong argument for no IMO.

alko 03-07-2013 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preisst (Post 61109663)
I can answer that quite easily but the point I was making was that by putting a personal agenda ahead of his national team it proves that due to his mental and selfish maturity level at that time that he was not ready to play with the men and that he was still basically a little boy.

In effect I was answering the question in the OP that M Lemieux was no where near ready to play in the NHL at the age of 18.

Ok, i accept it. I dont think he was not ready to play with men. He wanted only to break the records. that means, his skills were above every player in junior league.

Hardyvan123 03-07-2013 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 61093037)
Take a look at Mark Messier's age and stats in the WHA to appreciate the difficulty a 17 or a pre draft 18 year old would have playing against men in the NHL.

Not every player matures at the same rate so it doesn't make any sense to just compare players at the same young age.

Tsiruot 03-07-2013 09:55 AM

Its hard to play around with hypotheticals but I think the answer is Yes. Lemieux was drafted in 1984 and played the 1984/1985 season with a team full of scrubs. The second and third highest scorers on that Pittsburgh team were Warren Young and Doug Shedden, with around 70 points each, whom Lemieux carried. The year before Lemieux arrived, Young had 8 NHL points. Two years after that 1984 season, Young only had 21 NHL points...

Had Lemieux begun his NHL career one year earlier, he would have been drafted in 1983 by Minnesota #1 overall. He would've began the 1983/1984 season with young and upcoming Neal Broten and Brian Bellows as his linemates (or perhaps a blossoming Dino Ciccarelli or Dennis Maruk, who was only two years away from his 60 goal/136 points season). Broten and Bellows had 89 and 83 points respectively that year and Minnesota also had a 73 point-scoring defenseman in Brad Maxwell.

So ultimately, Lemieux would be one-year younger but he would have significantly better linemates and a better defensive corp. I can easily see Lemieux scoring 11 more points than a 23 year Broten and 17 more points than a 19 year old Bellows.

JWells16 03-07-2013 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsiruot (Post 61155627)
Its hard to play around with hypotheticals but I think the answer is Yes. Lemieux was drafted in 1984 and played the 1984/1985 season with a team full of scrubs. The second and third highest scorers on that Pittsburgh team were Warren Young and Doug Shedden, with around 70 points each, whom Lemieux carried. The year before Lemieux arrived, Young had 8 NHL points. Two years after that 1984 season, Young only had 21 NHL points...

Had Lemieux begun his NHL career one year earlier, he would have been drafted in 1983 by Minnesota #1 overall. He would've began the 1983/1984 season with young and upcoming Neal Broten and Brian Bellows as his linemates (or perhaps a blossoming Dino Ciccarelli or Dennis Maruk, who was only two years away from his 60 goal/136 points season). Broten and Bellows had 89 and 83 points respectively that year and Minnesota also had a 73 point-scoring defenseman in Brad Maxwell.

So ultimately, Lemieux would be one-year younger but he would have significantly better linemates and a better defensive corp. I can easily see Lemieux scoring 11 more points than a 23 year Broten and 17 more points than a 19 year old Bellows.

Combining this idea with the possibility that he plays in EVERY game makes it possible for him to hit 100.


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