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JLP 03-06-2013 12:33 PM

Fighting questions
 
Some questions I'd like fight fans to answer:

1. One participant has his helmet and visor on, one participant's helmet has come off -- should refs immediately stop the fight?

2. A huge fighter attacks a much smaller guy who is unwilling to fight and so uses his stick for self-defence. Who is more wrong here?

3. Will fighting still be condoned by the NHL in 5-10 years? If not what's most likely to end it?

Thanks.

bud12 03-06-2013 12:36 PM

1. no

2. the guy who use is stick

3. fighting is good for hockey.

1rd 03-06-2013 12:45 PM

1. Nope.

2. The guy waving his stick.

3. Yes.

jw2 03-06-2013 01:10 PM

1. ) No
2.) I'd have to see the whole thing play out. Is Brian McGratten is attacking Nate Gerbe for no reason or did Kaleta just take a run at someone and refusing to back it up when Lucic confronts him.
3.) Fighting isnt condoned. Its a major penalty. It will remain this way.

Number8 03-06-2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLP (Post 61097645)
Some questions I'd like fight fans to answer:

1. One participant has his helmet and visor on, one participant's helmet has come off -- should refs immediately stop the fight?

2. A huge fighter attacks a much smaller guy who is unwilling to fight and so uses his stick for self-defence. Who is more wrong here?

3. Will fighting still be condoned by the NHL in 5-10 years? If not what's most likely to end it?

Thanks.

1) No, I don't think so.
2) Hopefully the huge fighter gets payback at another time, but the guy with the stick is definitely more in the wrong.
3) I think it will, unless someone gets seriously, seriously hurt or killed.

Mr. Canucklehead 03-06-2013 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLP (Post 61097645)
Some questions I'd like fight fans to answer:

1. One participant has his helmet and visor on, one participant's helmet has come off -- should refs immediately stop the fight?

I don't believe so - at least not with today's rules. There may come a time where the NHL takes a more OHL-like approach to fighting and decides to intervene, but as of this moment, no, the refs should not be immediately stopping a fight because one guy lost his lid.

Quote:

2. A huge fighter attacks a much smaller guy who is unwilling to fight and so uses his stick for self-defence. Who is more wrong here?
The stick swinger is more in the wrong. That's a huge taboo, no matter who's coming at you. Turtle and let the guy take his penalties, but don't make things worse by slashing/spearing/hacking your opponent.

Quote:

3. Will fighting still be condoned by the NHL in 5-10 years? If not what's most likely to end it?
I don't know about the next 5-10 years, but ultimately, I do think fighting will reach a point where it isn't condoned (to which I read, if you fight, there will be suspensions/discipline, not just a 5 minute penalty). That point will come, in my opinion, if/when an NHL player dies as a result of injuries sustained in a fight.

Number8 03-06-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead (Post 61101357)
The stick swinger is more in the wrong. That's a huge taboo, no matter who's coming at you. Turtle and let the guy take his penalties, but don't make things worse by slashing/spearing/hacking your opponent.

I know I'm going way back, but Brad Park was just brutal in that regard. Many times when he'd find himself confronted by the prospect of a fight, he'd waive and stab his stick at a guy's nose.

acor 03-06-2013 02:59 PM

1. Nope

2. There's nothing "wrong" about attacking/bullying smaller guy. Thats what fighting is about. Bullying opposition

3. I think it will remain the way it is now.

jw2 03-06-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number8 (Post 61105699)
I know I'm going way back, but Brad Park was just brutal in that regard. Many times when he'd find himself confronted by the prospect of a fight, he'd waive and stab his stick at a guy's nose.

Ha... yeah, stick guy is more wrong then.

:banghead: I was thinking slashing, crosschecking as protection type of stick work, not swinging the stick in someones face.

Godzilla 03-06-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acor (Post 61106175)

2. There's nothing "wrong" about attacking/bullying smaller guy. Thats what fighting is about. Bullying opposition

.

There is SO much wrong with it on many levels, but I guess it depends on which team you root for.

acor 03-06-2013 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godzilla (Post 61108891)
There is SO much wrong with it on many levels, but I guess it depends on which team you root for.

What is wrong with this ? It happens. Part of the game.

I don't root for any team. Just an observer.

newfy 03-06-2013 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acor (Post 61110235)
What is wrong with this ? It happens. Part of the game.

I don't root for any team. Just an observer.

How many people on this website said that someone should have stuck one of those viyatz guys in the KHL across the face?

Small, weak players getting throttled in the face for no reason isnt part of the game, when it does happen its pathetic. A small guy running someone from behind and refusing to man up is different

acor 03-06-2013 04:31 PM

Quote:

Small, weak players getting throttled in the face for no reason isnt part of the game, when it does happen its pathetic. A small guy running someone from behind and refusing to man up is different
No "weak" or "small" players in NHL. Everyone needs to man up at some point of his career.

acor 03-06-2013 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godzilla (Post 61111411)
Do you play hockey?

Proffessionally (and we discuss about NHL, right?) no.
Whats the matter ?

billybudd 03-06-2013 05:20 PM

1. No

2. Depends. If it's, like, Michael Haley trying to jump MSL because he scored a goal or is just standing there minding his own business and MSL uses his stick to defend himself, Haley's in the wrong. If MSL elbows someone in the head (which he would never do), Haley goes after him and MSL uses his stick to defend himself, MSL's in the wrong.

3. Only way fighting leaves the NHL is if there's a gruesome death that goes viral on youtube and the network evening news. Or if there's a class action lawsuit that costs the league hundreds of millions of dollars.

billybudd 03-06-2013 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfy (Post 61110843)
How many people on this website said that someone should have stuck one of those viyatz guys in the KHL across the face?

That's a good example. What those guys were doing, it's absolutely justified if someone decides to defend himself with his stick, imo.

JLP 03-07-2013 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number8 (Post 61105699)
I know I'm going way back, but Brad Park was just brutal in that regard. Many times when he'd find himself confronted by the prospect of a fight, he'd waive and stab his stick at a guy's nose.

As a kid, Brad Park was my second-favourite defenceman. Wish I'd held onto his hockey cards.

Thanks all for your interesting and educational answers and input!

cam042686 03-07-2013 11:48 AM

I love the history of hockey and in fact am a writer. Back in 2009 I released the book “The Forgotten Summit” which is an account of the 1974 Canada/Soviet series. (I have also written on the 1967-72 Toronto Argonauts and in November 2012 released a book ‘Into the Valley of Death” which is an account of the 1876 Battle of Little Big Horn.) I think I have a good knowledge of sports and athletes. I love the history of hockey but detest hockey violence. I have not watched a NHL game since the Bertuzzi/Moore incident. I couldn’t abide how many in the “NHL world” made excuses for Bertuzzi’s illegal actions.

So that is where I am “coming from.” Just so I am open about it. No hidden agenda. Here is a question. How would the NHL respond if say a player died in a fight during a game tonight? Let’s say a player dies of brain damage due to a punch in the head.

I personally don’t think you’d see a huge response. Part of me feels that “deep down” the NHL would be pleased as they’d be on the front pages of media around the world. Something that they rarely are as the NHL is not big new around the world outside of Canada and select US cities.

Most unions actually care about health and safety. The NHLPA does not. Steve Moore has commented that he received no support at all from the NHLPA after his career was ended (although Todd Bertuzzi received support from the NHLPA through his disciplinary hearings.) I have practised labor relations for years – I can’t see the United Steelworkers or United Autoworkers turning their back on a union member who was critically injured at work -even one injured by a fellow union member.

I can hear Don Cherry right now “bellowing and roaring” on Coaches Corner that the player who threw the fatal punch “is a good kid’ and only European pansies don’t support fighting.”

Any other thoughts?

Craig Wallace

JLP 03-07-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam042686 (Post 61157909)
I love the history of hockey and in fact am a writer. Back in 2009 I released the book “The Forgotten Summit” which is an account of the 1974 Canada/Soviet series. (I have also written on the 1967-72 Toronto Argonauts and in November 2012 released a book ‘Into the Valley of Death” which is an account of the 1876 Battle of Little Big Horn.) I think I have a good knowledge of sports and athletes. I love the history of hockey but detest hockey violence. I have not watched a NHL game since the Bertuzzi/Moore incident. I couldn’t abide how many in the “NHL world” made excuses for Bertuzzi’s illegal actions.

So that is where I am “coming from.” Just so I am open about it. No hidden agenda. Here is a question. How would the NHL respond if say a player died in a fight during a game tonight? Let’s say a player dies of brain damage due to a punch in the head.

I personally don’t think you’d see a huge response. Part of me feels that “deep down” the NHL would be pleased as they’d be on the front pages of media around the world. Something that they rarely are as the NHL is not big new around the world outside of Canada and select US cities.

Most unions actually care about health and safety. The NHLPA does not. Steve Moore has commented that he received no support at all from the NHLPA after his career was ended (although Todd Bertuzzi received support from the NHLPA through his disciplinary hearings.) I have practised labor relations for years – I can’t see the United Steelworkers or United Autoworkers turning their back on a union member who was critically injured at work -even one injured by a fellow union member.

I can hear Don Cherry right now “bellowing and roaring” on Coaches Corner that the player who threw the fatal punch “is a good kid’ and only European pansies don’t support fighting.”

Any other thoughts?

Craig Wallace

If the cause of death was determined to be brain trauma from the fight, I think it would end the NHL's condoning of fighting.

For example a challenge might be directed at the CBC and other broadcasters, there are restrictions regarding content that includes violence, language and nudity, right now fighting gets through under a sports and news programming exemption -- that could be removed.

I'm not a lawyer but I think if it were argued that the NHL is purposely including bare knuckle fighting (illegal in most jurisdictions) in its product then a judge could rule that these fights have to be blacked out on TV, or the games can only be shown after a certain hour at night etc.

cam042686 03-07-2013 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLP (Post 61159551)
If the cause of death was determined to be brain trauma from the fight, I think it would end the NHL's condoning of fighting.

For example a challenge might be directed at the CBC and other broadcasters, there are restrictions regarding content that includes violence, language and nudity, right now fighting gets through under a sports and news programming exemption -- that could be removed.

I'm not a lawyer but I think if it were argued that the NHL is purposely including bare knuckle fighting (illegal in most jurisdictions) in its product then a judge could rule that these fights have to be blacked out on TV, or the games can only be shown after a certain hour at night etc.

Those are very interesting thoughts! Thanks for posting them.

Craig Wallace

newfy 03-07-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acor (Post 61111117)
No "weak" or "small" players in NHL. Everyone needs to man up at some point of his career.

So youre telling me that guys like Martin St Louis or Jiri Hudler have done anything in their NHL career to deserve Steve Macintyre grabbing them and pounding the life out of them?

Not true at all. Look at those Viyatz fight videos and honestly tell me some of those players on the other teams wouldve been wrong for using their stick.

JLP 03-07-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam042686 (Post 61160331)
Those are very interesting thoughts! Thanks for posting them.

Craig Wallace

I enjoyed your post as well and the HF community opinions are very interesting.

I spent many years in the fightsport world, and when NHL fights are likened to boxing or UFC and other productions I think it's important to remember that the hockey fights are FAR less regulated. In any respectable production fighters wear regulation gloves inspected and signed by an official before they step into the ring, which is a padded surface surrounded by stretched ropes. There are weight classes. Certain (eg rabbit to the back of the head) punches are forbidden, the referee is a pro w/ fights, I could go on.

Hockey fights scare me because of the randomness, you have no vetting of fighters, physicals or whatever, boards and skates, equipment flying around, and of course -- bare fists and a sheet of ice! Maybe fighters are not planted but it's just a haymaker that catches a guy going the other way and lights out, the fall randomly determining how the head hits the ice, it makes me shudder.

acor 03-07-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

So youre telling me that guys like Martin St Louis or Jiri Hudler have done anything in their NHL career to deserve Steve Macintyre grabbing them and pounding the life out of them?
Well, I've never been a fan of these soft, clean LB caliber players, no matter how good they were... Should they fight Macintyre ? Not. But they definetlyu should fight Ott's and Kaleta's instead of letting Macintyre's nannying them.

Bi Coastal Bawse* 03-07-2013 04:59 PM

1. One participant has his helmet and visor on, one participant's helmet has come off -- should refs immediately stop the fight?

No but visor guy should stop being a ***** and take it off

2. A huge fighter attacks a much smaller guy who is unwilling to fight and so uses his stick for self-defence. Who is more wrong here?

Both are in the wrong in some way. If the bigger guy is just randomly attacking the smaller guy he should get kicked out of the game. If the little guy has done something or has agitated the whole game and then crossed the line and wont man up but uses his stick like the dude in slap shot then he should be kicked out of the game and suspended

3. Will fighting still be condoned by the NHL in 5-10 years? If not what's most likely to end it?

Part of me says yes and part of me says no.

Hockey is part of the game and we are humans are natural violent. We are in fact animals, advanced animals, but we are animals. Players will still react with a fight if they see a team mate get demolished in a dirty play, a star player getting bullied or if 2 player just dont like each other.

However we are just now over these last few years doing research and looking into concussions. I think over the next few years it will be taken much more seriously. Goons may not be around but big tough guys who can play and fight if they have to will be.


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