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-   -   Blow it up. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1370635)

The Real 03-08-2013 01:55 AM

Blow it up.
 
I'm not really suggesting anything that most of you guys aren't already thinking. There is talent on this roster but for some reason it just doesn't work. Start at the top with a new GM, let him pick his coach and his players and lets move forward. This team will not win anything. I'd like to keep a few players and trade the rest away for assets for a complete rebuild.

You can get value for players like Vanek and Miller right now. If Vanek will resign then I give him a contract right now like the did with Myers a few years ago. If he won't, trade him now. He still has a year left and that makes him extremely valuable. I understand why people love him but we've won nothing with him. I wouldn't offer Miller another contract. I've seen enough.

Trade the whole defense aside from Myers if you are still a believer. I'm not. I'm not a believer in anyone on this team anymore. I see no fight that makes me a believer that this team can turn it around. They don't want it bad enough.


Blow it up.

Squantosawuss 03-08-2013 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real (Post 61231827)
Start at the top with a new GM

THIS is the biggest, most glaring and inexcusable oversight on the part of team ownership.

How was this not taken care of by now?

There was Darcy's coach for 15 years and this is Darcy's roster top to bottom.

HOW is he still in his job?

RazielMoshman 03-08-2013 04:47 AM

I'd say new GM and certain moves need to be made but blowing it up isn't an option at this stage imho. Well it's a pretty daft option. We'd go through years of being awful and don't have the fan base like the Leafs to sell out and support the team through another decade of basement dwelling. IMHO.

In short, I'm pretty sure if we sold off everything and built from the ground up in that fashion you'd end up supporting the Hamilton Sabres, or some such team. Melodramatic maybe, but it's been about 10 years since it's almost happened to us.

Squantosawuss 03-08-2013 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazielMoshman (Post 61233477)
I'd say new GM and certain moves need to be made but blowing it up isn't an option at this stage imho. Well it's a pretty daft option. We'd go through years of being awful and don't have the fan base like the Leafs to sell out and support the team through another decade of basement dwelling. IMHO.

In short, I'm pretty sure if we sold off everything and built from the ground up in that fashion you'd end up supporting the Hamilton Sabres, or some such team. Melodramatic maybe, but it's been about 10 years since it's almost happened to us.

This team's core is still made up of way too many secondary players who are undependable and inconsistent.

While blowing it up completely may be unnecessary and/or just not doable, there still needs to be an overhaul of the core.

Come to think of it, is there really even a core at this point?

Salzig 03-08-2013 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real (Post 61231827)
There is talent on this roster but for some reason it just doesn't work.

I disagree with you here. I don't think that our roster is loaded with talent. We only have one "star" player (Vanek), a couple of "above average" players (Hodgson, Pominville, Ennis, Ehrhoff, Miller) a few role players (Ott, Foligno) but the rest - simply not as good as the should be for the role they have on this roster (and get paid for) (Myers as the #1 defenseman, Regehr as the #1 shutdown guy, Stafford as a scorer,...) Additionally, we don't have any depth. Brennan, Pardy, Weber and Sulzer may be solid in some games, but look at the top teams in the league - they've got guys like Leddy, Ference and Lydman in their 3rd defensive pairing -I think these teams are ahead of us, because they've got solid defensemen in every pairing. I'm not comfortable with any of our current pairings, the only defenseman who's played solid for most of the season so far is Ehrhoff. It's the same in the offense, too. We've got a couple of borderline (and I really mean borderline!) NHLers in our roster like Scott, Porter, Flynn and Grigorenko, while others have way better grinders in their 4th line.

We're lacking talent in every component of our roster, from non-existent elite players to missing solid depth players. What do you expect from such a roster?

RazielMoshman 03-08-2013 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squantosawuss (Post 61233541)
This team's core is still made up of way too many secondary players who are undependable and inconsistent.

While blowing it up completely may be unnecessary and/or just not doable, there still needs to be an overhaul of the core.

Come to think of it, is there really even a core at this point?

Other than Stafford, Ennis, Vanek, Pominville, Leopold and Sekera I don't know who'd I count as part of the 'core'. and the only ones I'd want to part with out of that lot are Stafford and Leopold, though I could let Sekera go for the right price (but I think his a good 2 way defender for us personally).

TakeThatTootoo 03-08-2013 07:04 AM

The thread title is so violent.

-wait for it-




Unlike this team.

S319R11S16 03-08-2013 07:09 AM

This would have been my choice 4-5 years ago.

Still is.

stokes84 03-08-2013 07:38 AM

Pretty sure the process is already on. Start with the coach. At trade deadline, many UFAs are gone if anything can be returned for them. Possibly a veteran like Stafford will be traded. You have guys like Porter and Flynn playing while Hecht is sitting. You can't do everything at once, but they have started IMO.

Fan-of-#9 03-08-2013 07:43 AM

For me, the main issue for this team is the lack of stability from the back-end and that starts with our supposed franchise defenseman Myers. In my opinion, he is the #1 reason for our inconsistent play. He is becoming the biggest disappointment this franchise has seen in a long, long time.

Sabresfansince1980 03-08-2013 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real (Post 61231827)
I wouldn't offer Miller another contract. I've seen enough.

Trade the whole defense aside from Myers if you are still a believer.

Blow it up.

Miller has been making this team look better than it really is for the last 4-5 years. Since goalies are still in their prime late in their career and Buffalo has nobody to replace him in the organization, Miller is the LAST player I would look to trade.

Not sure why you would trade the whole defense ASIDE from Myers. Keeping Ehrhoff and Sekera (except for some can't refuse mega-trade) is a no-brainer, while trading Myers just might be one of the best value deals Regier could pull off. I'd like to think Rolston (or any other coach) could still get Myers on track, but you have your player values out of order here.

"Blowing it up" shouldn't mean ditching your best players just to change the face of the franchise. There are enough 2nd, 3rd (4th and 5th) tier players on the roster to get rid of and still consider it a "blow up". In no order, Hecht, Stafford, Gerbe, Leino, McCormick, Ellis, Regehr, Leopold, Brennan, Pardy, Weber, Sulzer, and Enroth have either hit the end of their road, have been effectively replaced, or can/should be replaced. That's a pretty tall order right there without also considering trading away your best players like Vanek, Pominville, Ehrhoff, Sekera, and Miller.

The only way trading those players makes sense is if the re-build is thought to be further out than those players' prime years will last. We've seen multiple examples the last 4-5 years of teams that turn it around on a dime, whether by coaching/GM change, or a few trades or just having young players develop. Our best players easily have more prime years ahead of them, so I wouldn't be pushing the shiny red button just yet.

stokes84 03-08-2013 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9 (Post 61235599)
For me, the main issue for this team is the lack of stability from the back-end and that starts with our supposed franchise defenseman Myers. In my opinion, he is the #1 reason for our inconsistent play. He is becoming the biggest disappointment this franchise has seen in a long, long time.

I think it's a little unfair to pin that much blame on him. It's not like he's the only highly paid defenseman on this roster. In hindsight, they clearly should've given him a bridge contract, but at the time it seemed like a good idea. You never know how a kid is going to react to the pressure of that much money. Give him some time, hopefully he'll grow into it.

RazielMoshman 03-08-2013 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 (Post 61235717)
Miller has been making this team look better than it really is for the last 4-5 years. Since goalies are still in their prime late in their career and Buffalo has nobody to replace him in the organization, Miller is the LAST player I would look to trade.

Not sure why you would trade the whole defense ASIDE from Myers. Keeping Ehrhoff and Sekera (except for some can't refuse mega-trade) is a no-brainer, while trading Myers just might be one of the best value deals Regier could pull off. I'd like to think Rolston (or any other coach) could still get Myers on track, but you have your player values out of order here.

"Blowing it up" shouldn't mean ditching your best players just to change the face of the franchise. There are enough 2nd, 3rd (4th and 5th) tier players on the roster to get rid of and still consider it a "blow up". In no order, Hecht, Stafford, Gerbe, Leino, McCormick, Ellis, Regehr, Leopold, Brennan, Pardy, Weber, Sulzer, and Enroth have either hit the end of their road, have been effectively replaced, or can/should be replaced. That's a pretty tall order right there without also considering trading away your best players like Vanek, Pominville, Ehrhoff, Sekera, and Miller.

The only way trading those players makes sense is if the re-build is thought to be further out than those players' prime years will last. We've seen multiple examples the last 4-5 years of teams that turn it around on a dime, whether by coaching/GM change, or a few trades or just having young players develop. Our best players easily have more prime years ahead of them, so I wouldn't be pushing the shiny red button just yet.

Easily the best paragraph I've read in this thread. Great post.

I'd like to keep Sulzer, as a 4th/5th/6th dman who keeps it simple I like him. Too many of our dmen try to overcomplicate the game, plus his got a bit of a shot when he wants to (joint leader in goals from the blueline? not checked).

My only thing with Enroth is that his been hosed by Lindy and Rolston only played him once, in which he looked good. Plus his got youth, something we desperately need. If we got rid of him we'd have to go for Bernier imho.

Sabresfansince1980 03-08-2013 08:09 AM

Thanks. I have my preferences on that list of moveable players (Weber, Sulzer, maybe Stafford) but it depends on who else can be moved and in what order. If upgrades are found elsewhere, then players like Weber and Sulzer would be pretty good in a 5th-7th d-man spot, Enroth could be fine without a sieve for team defense in front of him, and Stafford could be a decent 2nd RW with better players around him. But some of these guys need to be replaced with the type of players that don't need the coaching or better players around them to make a difference.

jfb392 03-08-2013 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazielMoshman (Post 61233477)
I'd say new GM and certain moves need to be made but blowing it up isn't an option at this stage imho. Well it's a pretty daft option. We'd go through years of being awful and don't have the fan base like the Leafs to sell out and support the team through another decade of basement dwelling. IMHO.

In short, I'm pretty sure if we sold off everything and built from the ground up in that fashion you'd end up supporting the Hamilton Sabres, or some such team. Melodramatic maybe, but it's been about 10 years since it's almost happened to us.

Funny that you mention the Leafs, because they are a poster boy that advocates blowing it up rather than riding it out and trying to patch holes with crappy players.
They either traded their first round pick or finished outside of the area in which elite talents are readily available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 61235789)
I think it's a little unfair to pin that much blame on him. It's not like he's the only highly paid defenseman on this roster. In hindsight, they clearly should've given him a bridge contract, but at the time it seemed like a good idea. You never know how a kid is going to react to the pressure of that much money. Give him some time, hopefully he'll grow into it.

I don't know if there's anything they could have done, contract-wise, to prevent him from being partially lobotomized after his rookie season.

MayDay 03-08-2013 08:26 AM

I'm afraid that this team, as bad as it is, still has too much talent to finish with a top three draft pick.

I totally see the Sabres collecting enough points down the stretch to pick somewhere between 7-10, and that depresses me.

Ace1963 03-08-2013 08:36 AM

New GM. New Coach. Dump the Miller-Vanek-Pominville loser core with wise trades.
Wouldn't take long for a competent hockey man to build a contender.

Jagemon 03-08-2013 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1963 (Post 61237099)
New GM. New Coach. Dump the Miller-Vanek-Pominville loser core with wise trades.
Wouldn't take long for a competent hockey man to build a contender.

Yeah because it really is THAT easy.. :help:

Cirris 03-08-2013 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayDay (Post 61236801)
I'm afraid that this team, as bad as it is, still has too much talent to finish with a top three draft pick.

I totally see the Sabres collecting enough points down the stretch to pick somewhere between 7-10, and that depresses me.

THIS!

And now with Enroth being carted off last night, I doubt we'll trade Miller. Thus he'll continue to keep this team in games they otherwise don't deserve to be in.

This team is no where close to being good enough to challenge for a Cup. So if your single mission is to win one, It's time to start dismantling this team and build a new, and hopefully much better team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1963 (Post 61237099)
New GM. New Coach. Dump the Miller-Vanek-Pominville loser core with wise trades.
Wouldn't take long for a competent hockey man to build a contender.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagemon (Post 61237511)
Yeah because it really is THAT easy.. :help:

It's not easy. But it needs to be done. Building mediocre teams is rather easy. Our owner doesn't want mediocre, he wants a cup. So Regier better keep trying no matter how "hard" the task.

1972 03-08-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1963 (Post 61237099)
New GM. New Coach. Dump the Miller-Vanek-Pominville loser core with wise trades.
Wouldn't take long for a competent hockey man to build a contender.

Good idea, lets get rid of all our good players and become an annual celler dweller for the next 8 years, I am sure fans would support that after a year or two. Or we can resign Miller and/or Vanek/Pominville and add good support players. We are a good Myers and a consistent 2nd line away from being a playoff team. We will have a good team next year if Darcy can adress the depth scoring and an improved defensive mentality.

We have very good pieces on the roster in Vanek, Myers, Miller, Pominville, Hodgson ect to build around, and more than enough young talent to be a good team moving foward.

tmack224 03-08-2013 09:09 AM

I really think we are not that far off but need to move out the big guys. Go with youth, Pommer, Vanek, Miller, and Stafford need to go. Miller is getting older and isnt a goalie for a rebuild. Do a real rebuild please.

At the Deadline:

Pomminville to Ottawa for Ben Bishop, Stefan Noesen, and a 1st.
Vanek to St. Louis for Jaden Schwartz, D'Agostini, and a 1st
Miller to San Jose for Niemi, Hertl, and a 2nd
Stafford to anyone for picks or prospects

Let Niemi, Bishop, and Enroth fight for the starting spot. This would make us a young rebuilding team with a lot of picks and money going into the offseason.

HockeyH3aven 03-08-2013 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy Regier (Post 61238175)
Good idea, lets get rid of all our good players and become an annual celler dweller for the next 8 years, I am sure fans would support that after a year or two. Or we can resign Miller and/or Vanek/Pominville and add good support players. We are a good Myers and a consistent 2nd line away from being a playoff team. We will have a good team next year if Darcy can adress the depth scoring and an improved defensive mentality.

We have very good pieces on the roster in Vanek, Myers, Miller, Pominville, Hodgson ect to build around, and more than enough young talent to be a good team moving foward.

If you're moving talented guys in their prime, you're going to get back good, young players and draft picks that could turn into good, young players.

Fan-of-#9 03-08-2013 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 61235789)
I think it's a little unfair to pin that much blame on him. It's not like he's the only highly paid defenseman on this roster. In hindsight, they clearly should've given him a bridge contract, but at the time it seemed like a good idea. You never know how a kid is going to react to the pressure of that much money. Give him some time, hopefully he'll grow into it.

Having a minute-eater who can play in all situations who you can trust on a nightly basis makes a big difference. Fair or not fair, we expect and need Myers to be that guy for us. Without that cog on the backend, you end up with a lot of juggling and a lot of inconsistency.

MacOfNiagara 03-08-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazielMoshman (Post 61234825)
Other than Stafford, Ennis, Vanek, Pominville, Leopold and Sekera I don't know who'd I count as part of the 'core'. and the only ones I'd want to part with out of that lot are Stafford and Leopold, though I could let Sekera go for the right price (but I think his a good 2 way defender for us personally).

Should definitely add Hodgson to that list

MacOfNiagara 03-08-2013 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 61235485)
Pretty sure the process is already on. Start with the coach. At trade deadline, many UFAs are gone if anything can be returned for them. Possibly a veteran like Stafford will be traded. You have guys like Porter and Flynn playing while Hecht is sitting. You can't do everything at once, but they have started IMO.

I concur.


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