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-   -   Greater dynasty: Gretzky's Oilers vs Trottier's Islanders (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1371761)

Yamaguchi 03-09-2013 04:40 PM

Greater dynasty: Gretzky's Oilers vs Trottier's Islanders
 
Islanders (1980-83) vs. Oilers (1984-88)

Please vote. Thanks

PS. I say the NY Islanders because they've won four Cups in a row.

SnowblindNYR 03-09-2013 05:51 PM

I think the better known one is the Oilers because of Gretzky and because they were the great show on ice. However, considering the Isles made the finals 5 straight years and won 4 in a row it has to be them.

Ohashi_Jouzu 03-09-2013 06:06 PM

I don't even know if I can call this one to this day. I mean, it's hard weighing a squad that won 4 Cups in a row vs. a squad that featured two top-10 players of all-time and a defending Norris trophy winner at the time, for example; especially since, on top of that, they beat each other in back-to-back seasons for the championship, lol.

I want to say the Oilers, I really do, but I think I'm voting 'even'.

Big Phil 03-09-2013 06:59 PM

I said pretty even. I'm not sure there is a wrong answer here. This is my analysis:

The Islanders won 4 Cups in a row and made the final the 5th year. They had a couple of playoff years before 1980 where they were labelled as chokers. After 1984 it was lights out and they were out of contention, but those Cup winning years were amazing.

The Oilers won 4/5 years. They reached the final in 1983 before their dynasty started. Other than an errant Steve Smith clearing attempt I think they win 5 in a row. Plus Gretzky is traded by Pocklington following the 1988 win. It is believed that the Oilers dynasty only stopped because of a bad trade. Yes they won in 1990 but with Gretzky they win in 1989, 1990 and maybe 1991 which would have made an interesting Cup final. The dynasty only really stops because of age, not poor trades. So you have to take that into context as well.

Secondly, the Steve Smith play in 1986 hurts and it interrupts the dynasty. However, in 1982 the Islanders are extremely close to being knocked out by Pittsburgh. Thanks to John Tonelli and a timely overtime save by Smith they move on. So I don't think a lot seperates 1986 and 1982. The difference being is that the Islanders prevailed while the Oilers couldn't come back after that play. Edge: Islanders.

Playoff record for the Islanders from 1980-'84: 72-28
Playoff record for the Oilers from 1984-'88: 66-18

Edge: Oilers (also includes the botched 1986 year)


Regular season points:
Islanders: 91, 110, 118, 96, 104
Oilers: 119, 109, 119, 106, 99

Islanders finished 1st in points twice
Oilers finished first in points three times

Both teams were easily the cream of the NHL crop at the time and the envy of the league and everyone else knew it.

Some might give the edge to the Islanders based on 4 Cups in a row and 19 playoff series wins in a row. Both teams were in a 21 team league.

LeBlondeDemon10 03-09-2013 07:09 PM

I give the edge to the Islanders because they won 4 consecutive. They had very few bad moments during that run. Head to head though, if they were to play, it might be even, but I would never bet against prime Gretzky. Never.

Big Phil 03-09-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 61326387)
I give the edge to the Islanders because they won 4 consecutive. They had very few bad moments during that run. Head to head though, if they were to play, it might be even, but I would never bet against prime Gretzky. Never.

I think it is important to note that head to head they sort of did play each other, which doesn't really help give an answer because they both dominated the series. The Islanders swept Edmonton in 1983 and Edmonton beat the Islanders in five games in 1984.

1984 may have been the Oilers best team but some might prefer the 1985 version, or even the 1987 version that was a little more seasoned. I am going to stick with 1984 or 1985 and imagine a 7 games series against the Islanders best team - 1982. I agree, I would lose sleep betting against a prime Gretzky too but man that would be some series and if anyone can come up with a conclusion on that one we might be able to figure out who was better at their peak.

LeBlondeDemon10 03-09-2013 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 61329721)
I think it is important to note that head to head they sort of did play each other, which doesn't really help give an answer because they both dominated the series. The Islanders swept Edmonton in 1983 and Edmonton beat the Islanders in five games in 1984.

1984 may have been the Oilers best team but some might prefer the 1985 version, or even the 1987 version that was a little more seasoned. I am going to stick with 1984 or 1985 and imagine a 7 games series against the Islanders best team - 1982. I agree, I would lose sleep betting against a prime Gretzky too but man that would be some series and if anyone can come up with a conclusion on that one we might be able to figure out who was better at their peak.

Oh yes, I remember those series vividly. Even the series in 81 was a great series. I just meant that I don't think we ever saw peak on peak from those teams. The closest might be 83 or 84, but in 83 the Oilers were very green and in 84 the Islanders looked so run down in that final after 5 years of intense hockey. I don't know if that series against the Habs in 84 took a lot out of them, but after they lost the first two games to Steve Penney, they just turned it up a notch and won 4 straight. Many of the 50's Habs were getting worried the Isles might tie their record. But that was Gretzky's spring much to the relief of Beliveau and crew. It certainly would be interesting discussing hockey dynasty's had 2 events not taken place - Steve Smith's goal and Pocklington going broke. Had those not occurred, we might have witnessed a run of 7-9 cups.

Hardyvan123 03-09-2013 11:08 PM

I took the NYI but it's a coin flip.

Everyone talks about what if and how many for the Oilers but what is there is no expansion and the WHA survives, how long would the NYI streak go?

At least 5

Big Phil 03-09-2013 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 61350031)
I took the NYI but it's a coin flip.

Everyone talks about what if and how many for the Oilers but what is there is no expansion and the WHA survives, how long would the NYI streak go?

At least 5

We're getting into "what ifs" here but for the sake of argument I agree with LeBlondeDemon that the Oil would have at least 7 Cups in a row without Steve Smith's gaffe and Pocklington's meddling. Then again, in order for that to happen the Oilers still have to win that game against the Flames in 1986 since it was tied. They beat the Blues the next round and probably beat Montreal, but anything could have happened with Patrick Roy. Then in 1989 that was an awfully good Flames team too. I think a Gretzky-led Oilers team beats them, but you never know.

As for the Islanders, if I were to venture a guess I would say their streak ends at 5. You have to look at 1985 and ask who would stop them from getting 6 though without the Oilers existing. There wasn't really an up and coming team in the mid 1980s. The Habs were in turmoil in 1985 (to their standards), the Bruins were sort of bland at that time. The Flyers actually did beat the Isles in 1985 so I guess they'd be your best bet. But if things are different and they have 5 in a row (going for the record of 6) do they empty out the tank for one more run? Potvin and Bossy had been playing longer than Bossy at that time and were declining. Smith was declining as well. I don't know if the motivation for 6 in a row helps them beat Philly or not. The team they meet in the final would be a team with holes either way. Winnipeg, Calgary or Chicago would be my picks. Could Chicago win a Cup with Murray Bannerman? Well, maybe, Niemi won in 2010 without having to do much. Not sure the Jets are deep enough.

Anyway, it is fun to guess.

RabbinsDuck 03-10-2013 12:06 AM

Pretty even. That islanders team is really underrated - they just had it all.

Gretzky stays with the Oilers and it's no question, but I don't think this is a 'what if' question. As it is, that Islanders team was a perfect storm, but so were the Oilers. Tough for me to pick the superior team.

Giacomin 03-10-2013 12:45 AM

Being a Rangers fan living on Long Island during my HS Years (graduated 1983) the Islanders were hated by me. That being said I would go Islanders all the way over the Oilers.

tommygunn 03-10-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamaguchi (Post 61318029)
Greater dynasty: Gretzky's Oilers vs Trottier's Islanders

Should read Potvin's Islanders...

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS 03-10-2013 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommygunn (Post 61377395)
Should read Potvin's Islanders...

No should read Arbours NYI

tommygunn 03-10-2013 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS (Post 61377577)
No should read Arbours NYI

:whaaa?:

Then should read Sather's Oilers..

BraveCanadian 03-10-2013 05:45 PM

The Oilers could have been the best dynasty of all time.

They (not just Steve Smith) blew 1986 and financial concerns ruined the rest.

The Islanders won 19 straight playoff series and finally lost to an emerging dynasty.

So for me they win.

Yamaguchi 03-10-2013 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommygunn (Post 61377395)
Should read Potvin's Islanders...


I used the names of their top centres

revolverjgw 03-10-2013 07:28 PM

I'd probably go with the Islanders, I prefer the makeup of that team. They seemed to have more Messier-types, that kind of swagger. Their top guys were mostly mean hombres, even their goalie. And I love the secondary guys, seemed like more of them were there for the whole ride compared to the Oilers, where guys like Simpson and Tikkanen came in later... even Coffey was gone before the end. Feels like the Isles had less turnover and thus more identity.

jumptheshark 03-11-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bickel41 (Post 61354527)
Being a Rangers fan living on Long Island during my HS Years (graduated 1983) the Islanders were hated by me. That being said I would go Islanders all the way over the Oilers.

First time they met in the final that was obvious--Oiler learned how to bet the Islanders from losing that first time and came back with spades in the second cup

FakeKidPoker* 03-12-2013 12:13 AM

Do the Islanders win any cups without Trottier?

saskganesh 03-12-2013 02:11 AM

Islanders by not much. The 4 cups in a row, the 19 straight series wins, the intangibles (heh) all contribute.

If that 5th cup series wasn't 2-3-2, I think the Isles take the 5th game at home, and then that series has a different momentum.

vadim sharifijanov 03-12-2013 02:33 AM

this is a super tough one. i've been meaning to study those two teams more closely before chiming in, but that's probably not going to happen this week.

my gut says islanders. edmonton has gretzky, but were top heavy. the islanders had excellent high end players, obviously (the big 4), but the roster was deep with excellent scoring depth, and heart and soul role players. even the years the oilers brought in ringers like nilsson and ruotsalainen, i don't think they could match new york's bottom six of nystrom, merrick, kallur, duane sutter, henning/brent sutter, and billy carroll.

Yamaguchi 03-12-2013 01:08 PM

So far, the Oilers are winning...

Unbelievable!

Morgoth Bauglir 03-12-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamaguchi (Post 61496535)
So far, the Oilers are winning...

Unbelievable!

Why is it so unbelievable? Most of the responders have said it's close for them.

Ohashi_Jouzu 03-12-2013 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 (Post 61499331)
Why is it so unbelievable? Most of the responders have said it's close for them.

On top of that, there are very valid points/opinions either way depending on whether one focuses on the team rosters or the team accomplishments when voting.

TheDevilMadeMe 03-12-2013 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamaguchi (Post 61496535)
So far, the Oilers are winning...

Unbelievable!

Were you looking forward to seeing "Trottier's Islanders" win, so you could then argue that this poll is proof that Gretzky is overrated? :laugh:

I voted "even" by the way.


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