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-   -   Subban's play since coming back Part 2 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1373179)

hototogisu 03-11-2013 12:34 PM

Subban's play since coming back Part 2
 
Continue here.

PricePkPatch 03-11-2013 12:38 PM

Regarding "will the bridge hurt us in 2 years", you gotta realize that at the time of the signing, money for next summer's FA season would have been quite tight. A Subban signed 5.5M might have been problematic.

Money next summer, however, is gonna be rather nice. We will have Gio and Markov off the books. I think we will do okay, even if Subban required that marginal 1.5M$ more to 6, 6.5 M

CrAzYNiNe 03-11-2013 12:48 PM

To Habaddict and HankyZetts:

We are all right and all wrong. The cap hit in the future being lower is beneficial but also making Subban work for it also has it's benefits.

Even though I agree with you HZ, I do not believe it was necessary for Subban to take a bridge and work for it, because I believe in his work ethic and do not think he would stop after being paid. With no proof of this, I will concede victory to MB for getting the most out of PK, but will have to be revised when a new contract is signed.

Habtchum* 03-11-2013 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PricePkPatch (Post 61441721)
Regarding "will the bridge hurt us in 2 years", you gotta realize that at the time of the signing, money for next summer's FA season would have been quite tight. A Subban signed 5.5M might have been problematic.

Money next summer, however, is gonna be rather nice. We will have Gio and Markov off the books. I think we will do okay, even if Subban required that marginal 1.5M$ more to 6, 6.5 M

Summer 2014, right ?

HankyZetts 03-11-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe (Post 61442363)
To Habaddict and HankyZetts:

We are all right and all wrong. The cap hit in the future being lower is beneficial but also making Subban work for it also has it's benefits.

Even though I agree with you HZ, I do not believe it was necessary for Subban to take a bridge and work for it, because I believe in his work ethic and do not think he would stop after being paid. With no proof of this, I will concede victory to MB for getting the most out of PK, but will have to be revised when a new contract is signed.

I hear what you are saying, but we can't make decisions with our hearts, we must make them with our brains. It's the game of humans, and nothing is guaranteed. For MB, a new GM, he had to be sure, and I can get behind that. Not to mention, he could be looking at making a serious run at Corey Perry. We need all the space we can get for that.

In the end, PK playing at this level, only bodes well for the franchise and its fans.

PricePkPatch 03-11-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habtchum (Post 61442601)
Summer 2014, right ?

I think the correct grammar for Summer 2013 is "this summer" while "next summer" is Summer 2014, right?

CrAzYNiNe 03-11-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PricePkPatch (Post 61444083)
I think the correct grammar for Summer 2013 is "this summer" while "next summer" is Summer 2014, right?

Correct grammar isn't always going to give you the most obvious sentence. :laugh: However, yes you are correct.

CrAzYNiNe 03-11-2013 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61442759)
I hear what you are saying, but we can't make decisions with our hearts, we must make them with our brains. It's the game of humans, and nothing is guaranteed. For MB, a new GM, he had to be sure, and I can get behind that. Not to mention, he could be looking at making a serious run at Corey Perry. We need all the space we can get for that.

In the end, PK playing at this level, only bodes well for the franchise and its fans.

That's why I choose to give MB the benefit of the doubt.

THE HOFF 03-11-2013 01:31 PM

subban matured. Doesn't yap as much and is starting to get the benefit of the doubt with refs - something he never got. He doesn't throw himself out of the play anymore with some stupid dives trying to poke the puck... he stopped trying to do too much. I always thought he was missing a screw in his brain and would remain somewhat a nut case...it seems like I was wrong. his contract negos seemed to have humbled him and thats good news.

Kriss E 03-11-2013 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PricePkPatch (Post 61441721)
Regarding "will the bridge hurt us in 2 years", you gotta realize that at the time of the signing, money for next summer's FA season would have been quite tight. A Subban signed 5.5M might have been problematic.

Money next summer, however, is gonna be rather nice. We will have Gio and Markov off the books. I think we will do okay, even if Subban required that marginal 1.5M$ more to 6, 6.5 M

Here's the problem. You think signing PK to a bigger deal could have been problematic because of the cap issue. However, PK would have been worth every penny. So, how does somebody that earns every penny of his paycheck become the problem??
That is illogical.
The problem was our cap hit was high due to overpaid players currently on the team. Guys like Gomez and Kaberle who don't deserve their cash, they would have been the problem, not PK.

It's really anybody's guess what PK will command in his next contract. First, we need to see how well he performs. Second, we have to see how players are signed under the new CBA (expect cap hits to be higher than ever as they eliminated the front loaded two decade long deals). Third, it will depend how negotiations go. Finally, it depends if Bergevin offers him an extension as early as this summer or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61442759)
I hear what you are saying, but we can't make decisions with our hearts, we must make them with our brains. It's the game of humans, and nothing is guaranteed. For MB, a new GM, he had to be sure, and I can get behind that. Not to mention, he could be looking at making a serious run at Corey Perry. We need all the space we can get for that.

In the end, PK playing at this level, only bodes well for the franchise and its fans.

As you said, nothing is guaranteed. Even if PK wins back to back Norris, there's no guarantee he will keep up this dominance. It's all about risk/reward.

That's also where ''using your brain'' kicks in. For a guy that praises himself so highly on evaluating players to the point where you say that you can see things many other fans can't, I have to wonder why you're not siding on a longer deal. You didn't need to be some magic scout to see how amazing PK's potential was/is, and how remarkable his play already was (all things considered).
The risk to sign him right away to a longer/cheaper deal now was small. If PK only kept progressing as he as over the last few years, then he would definitely earn his spot among the best of the NHL (all ages considered).

You keep talking about his lack of vision and IQ, but it makes absolutely no sense for someone that lacks IQ to do the things PK does, none.

It was already pretty obvious at first, and it only becomes even more clear every time you speak of the kid, your evaluation of him is just wrong.

HankyZetts 03-11-2013 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61447135)
That's also where ''using your brain'' kicks in. For a guy that praises himself so highly on evaluating players to the point where you say that you can see things many other fans can't, I have to wonder why you're not siding on a longer deal.

I'm not praising myself, take it easy there, Kriss. Everyone wants a long-term deal, but at what cost?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61447135)
You didn't need to be some magic scout to see how amazing PK's potential was/is, and how remarkable his play already was (all things considered).
The risk to sign him right away to a longer/cheaper deal now was small. If PK only kept progressing as he as over the last few years, then he would definitely earn his spot among the best of the NHL (all ages considered).

How do you know that? You can only go by what you see and PK left a lot to be desired, considering his talent. Everyone knew he was already a very good player with a lot of potential, but to deserve the big money long term he still had/has more to prove. The way he's playing right now, if he had played like that last year without Markov's influence and on a crappy team, I would have a different opinion. He's now showing his real potential, on a good team in a great system. Still has a ways to go, but MB handled it perfectly so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61447135)
You keep talking about his lack of vision and IQ, but it makes absolutely no sense for someone that lacks IQ to do the things PK does, none.

Do you know what the word "relative" means? He still possesses good instincts, but relative to the guys we were arguing about in the other thread, he is lacking in that department. And that is the most important department. Ok?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61447135)
It was already pretty obvious at first, and it only becomes even more clear every time you speak of the kid, your evaluation of him is just wrong.

Ok Kriss, I get it. Every time he has a good stretch you will be here trumpeting "I told you so" as if I didn't already believe PK was a very good player with a high ceiling. Bravo.

Would you like a mulligan on your opinion of OEL, or do you still believe PK is better? Or is that too shallow and desperate of me?
:sarcasm:

Habaddict 03-11-2013 03:37 PM

It still boils down to, is he more likely to remain at the present level
or regress. Or is he more likely to improve.

Since there is no way to know this beforehand, some judgement or
educated guessing is needed.

I'm guessing that he has a good chance to improve so much, that
a 5-5.5 long term contract, would look like a bargain before year three.
And if he only continues to play like he is, he worth a lot less than that
now. So little would have been lost.

The risk/reward ratio seemed strongly slanted toward signing him
long term.

Of course this has gotten more extreme with his excellent play, and
attitude so far.

Kriss E 03-11-2013 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61450349)
I'm not praising myself, take it easy there, Kriss. Everyone wants a long-term deal, but at what cost?

You said you were able to see flaws that many other fans can't see. That sounds like praising to me.
That's my point, what was the cost here? What truly were the risk of PK signing long term. Did you actually think PK wasn't worth investing many years at 4.5M??
You think he would have signed the deal, not play up to par to the point where people are complaining that he's making 4.5??
That was the whole point, the risk of investing in PK was as sure a bet as for any other promising youngster. Well worth the risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61450349)
How do you know that? You can only go by what you see and PK left a lot to be desired, considering his talent. Everyone knew he was already a very good player with a lot of potential, but to deserve the big money long term he still had/has more to prove. The way he's playing right now, if he had played like that last year without Markov's influence and on a crappy team, I would have a different opinion. He's now showing his real potential, on a good team in a great system. Still has a ways to go, but MB handled it perfectly so far.

Why did he have more to prove? Considering you're saying yourself you already knew he was at the very least a ''very good player with a lot of potential'', and may I add ''that had already proven capable of effectively handling top opponents, and play in every situation''. I mean, what else did he need to prove? That he can be part of the top players on the NHL??? Okay, well if that's the case, then expect him to get around 7-8M. He was allegedly asking for 4.5M, money well worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61450349)
Do you know what the word "relative" means? He still possesses good instincts, but relative to the guys we were arguing about in the other thread, he is lacking in that department. And that is the most important department. Ok?

Maybe you should phrase things differently then.
I don't think any other Dman in the NHL has the offensive vision of Karlsson, but I'm not gonna say they're lacking some.
You think those guys have more hockey IQ than PK, ok, but that's not him lacking any. I also disagree.
PK takes more risk than some of these guys because of style, but I don't think he has much to envy in terms of hockey sense. The kid reads plays very well.
He needs to improve on certain decisions, that's only normal, but I don't think he is lacking anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61450349)
Ok Kriss, I get it. Every time he has a good stretch you will be here trumpeting "I told you so" as if I didn't already believe PK was a very good player with a high ceiling. Bravo.

Would you like a mulligan on your opinion of OEL, or do you still believe PK is better? Or is that too shallow and desperate of me?
:sarcasm:

I'm not trumpeting anything. I simply stated that he was a risk well worth taking, but apparently not to you, and for reasons that didn't make any sense.

As for OEL, I never said PK was better, I said they were on par and that advanced stat showed he actually did better than OEL (stats can change on a yearly basis, and they can also be influenced by the team you play on). You said OEL was clearly better and that it wasn't even close.
So, don't put words in my mouth. I said they were on par, both having stronger/weaker qualities than the other.

Habbybirthday 03-11-2013 04:21 PM

Subban is good.

Team_Spirit 03-11-2013 04:29 PM

His shot seem different this year im sure he worked on it. It looks a bit more compact.

Great season by PK so far.


SouthernHab 03-11-2013 04:29 PM

Part Two. Outstanding.;)

The Russian General 03-11-2013 05:01 PM

Beast.

Analyzer 03-11-2013 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyzer
I'd trade him for the Schenn brothers.

:shakehead

This crow tastes disgusting. May I at least drown it in Ketchup ?

HankyZetts 03-11-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61452913)
You said you were able to see flaws that many other fans can't see. That sounds like praising to me.
That's my point, what was the cost here? What truly were the risk of PK signing long term. Did you actually think PK wasn't worth investing many years at 4.5M??

I'd have signed him long-term for cheap, but I would rather the bridge to see what he really is capable of on a good team.

Him getting giant money should only happen when he shows the ability to perform at that level consistently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61452913)
Maybe you should phrase things differently then.
I don't think any other Dman in the NHL has the offensive vision of Karlsson, but I'm not gonna say they're lacking some.
You think those guys have more hockey IQ than PK, ok, but that's not him lacking any. I also disagree.

IQ is more than just offensive vision and there are a few who are right up there with Karlsson. I'm only saying PK "lacks" anything because we were comparing him to the absolute best.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61452913)
I'm not trumpeting anything. I simply stated that he was a risk well worth taking, but apparently not to you, and for reasons that didn't make any sense.

That's fine if they don't make sense to you. To me, PK hadn't proved anything yet. I like the way it was handled and the way it has made him hungry. He conformed almost immediately to the team concept and it's showing in his play. After a year like this, assuming he continues this play, I'm much more comfortable signing PK long-term as a cornerstone of the franchise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 61452913)
So, don't put words in my mouth. I said they were on par, both having stronger/weaker qualities than the other.

Yes, fair enough, was a weak attempt at a comeback :laugh:. I still think OEL is the best thing since sliced bread though, and would swap them in an instant. :p:

habdynasty 03-11-2013 06:26 PM

I will take Subban over elo anyday..

That Subban wrist shot reminds me of R Bourque he use to get that shot through all the time.

icerocket 03-11-2013 06:29 PM

Subban is gonna get a pay off.

Kriss E 03-11-2013 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61455839)
I'd have signed him long-term for cheap, but I would rather the bridge to see what he really is capable of on a good team.

Him getting giant money should only happen when he shows the ability to perform at that level consistently.

But if we believe the last rumors and if we look at what he actually signed, I seriously doubt PK was looking for Giant money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61455839)
IQ is more than just offensive vision and there are a few who are right up there with Karlsson. I'm only saying PK "lacks" anything because we were comparing him to the absolute best.

But you use that as a flaw when it isn't. You also believe that his steps behind IQ compared to them far exceeds whatever qualities he has over those players as well, something I disagree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61455839)
That's fine if they don't make sense to you. To me, PK hadn't proved anything yet. I like the way it was handled and the way it has made him hungry. He conformed almost immediately to the team concept and it's showing in his play. After a year like this, assuming he continues this play, I'm much more comfortable signing PK long-term as a cornerstone of the franchise.

But it's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact that he was effectively shutting down top opponents consistently and that he was solid in all three situations. That to me was enough a reason to look at signing him for a cheaper long term deal.

I also disagree on the bridge deal making him hungry. I think this is PK following the same progression he's had over the years.
Would he be just as solid as he is now if he had signed a long term deal? Apparently not to you (considering you believe this deal made him hungry). I disagree because PK has shown that his work ethic is irreproachable. Actually, he is so serious when he practices that even his teammates get upset.
He always comes into camp in tip top shape, his off ice training is great as well.
There's absolutely no reason to speculate that PK would see a drop in performance, a laid back attitude, after signing a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HankyZetts (Post 61455839)
Yes, fair enough, was a weak attempt at a comeback :laugh:. I still think OEL is the best thing since sliced bread though, and would swap them in an instant. :p:

That's fine, I know you prefer him. But again, I think it's more of a question of style rather than actual skill.

MJG 03-11-2013 06:52 PM

Thread needs a better name IMO

Perhaps a colon and an adjective.

Habbybirthday 03-11-2013 08:14 PM

Subban can shoot.

Alexdaman 03-11-2013 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyzer (Post 61455581)
:shakehead

This crow tastes disgusting. May I at least drown it in Ketchup ?

No reason to sweeten something so bitter, just throw it in the trash before you get sick.


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