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Foppa2118 03-13-2013 06:55 PM

All Purpose EJ Thread *Read Mod Warning # 1 & 34*
 
Mod Edit, by RL :
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockLobster (Post 61688479)

Rest assure, if I interpret posts as Trolling/Flaming/etc. there will be NO Warnings given, only Infractions, take a look at how Foppa and ABasin are talking to each other, sure they disagree w/ one another, but they're keeping it civil and are using valid arguments to back/state their cases

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Also continuing with AB from the last thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61594853)
Correct. I'm trying to take EJ out of the equation, and thus the emotion out of it.

So. Would you trade 100 points of offense (one player, two players, 15 players, whatever) for one player's defensive abilities? I put in the one player option, as that's the simplest.

Which NHL 100 point player would you happily trade for which defense-only defenseman?

Without trying to sound argumentative, how can you think this is a fair argument, and how can you keep referring to EJ as a defensive defenseman just because he's had a slow start this year? He's not Ryan friggin O'Byrne.

I'll trade 15 David Van Der Gulik's for one Chris Phillips or Eric Brewer any day of the week. Or Viktor Hedman since he hasn't proven to be any more offensive than EJ yet. Does that still sound like a fair comparison?

That's like saying you wouldn't trade Liles and Bozak for Mark Staal.

I'll even do you a favor and substitute Staal's 2010-11 season for last years injury shortened one where he only put up a whopping 5 points in 46 games.

Liles - 36 points in 81 games
Bozak - 61 points in 100 games
Combined 97 points

Mark Staal - 40 points in 98 games

That's only 12 more points than EJ, and with 11 more games played. Not that big a difference. It very well may end up being a lopsided deal, but you can't prove that point here and now, and using the combined offensive stats of Stewart and Shattenkirk against just EJ's.

Edit: I'd like to point out that I did not feel the need to create this thread. Most of the first two pages of comments were moved from the Sherman thread, but since talk of the EJ trade has taken on a life of it's own again recently, it's probably a good thing the mods decided to keep it all here. Hats off to their extra effort lately to keep things organized, and less troll'ish.

ABasin 03-14-2013 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foppa2118 (Post 61597899)
Also continuing with AB from the last thread:

Without trying to sound argumentative, how can you think this is a fair argument, and how can you keep referring to EJ as a defensive defenseman just because he's had a slow start this year? He's not Ryan friggin O'Byrne.

Oh, no question he has better puck and skating skills than O'Byrne. But if you're of the belief that EJ is a 50 point player who is simply in a slump, then I completely understand why you argue against StL winning the trade. And if you believe that, fine - but I simply don't see that production. I see the innate skillset, but not the production. And without the production, he's simply not a two-way 1st pairing guy. He's a really good defensive defenseman. I'm sorry, but 9 points over his last half season isn't 'offensive defenseman' territory. Nor is 26 points over the entire season before. He's pretty far away, and has been for awhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foppa2118 (Post 61597899)
I'll trade 15 David Van Der Gulik's for one Chris Phillips or Eric Brewer any day of the week. Or Viktor Hedman since he hasn't proven to be any more offensive than EJ yet. Does that still sound like a fair comparison?

OK, let's forget the 15 player thing - that was stupid of me. I'm throwing too many analogies out there and confusing the issue.

Bottom line: Sherman traded two 1st/2nd line/pairing guys for one. Yes, there was a depth player and a couple of draft picks out there also, but here and now, the big deal is the three players. So it's entirely reasonable and appropriate to compare what those players are currently bringing to their respective teams.

I've compared the offensive contributions and it's a whopping landslide in favor of StL. I suspect you'd agree. So, that leaves us with the defensive contributions. There's no question in my mind that EJ is the best defensive player of the three. However, the Avs gave up over 100 points per season in those two 1st/2nd line players. IMO, there's no level of defense EJ can play to make up for that. There's just not. You may disagree with that of course, but I'd then believe you wrong. That's why I tried to draw the Crosby analogy.

Now, if EJ played this type of defense and made up, say, 50 points of offense also, then that changes everything. But there's a *huge* difference between a 20 minute per night 1st pairing defenseman scoring 50 points, and scoring 10 points - which is where we're headed this season. If I'm putting words in your mouth, then I apologize ahead of time, but it seems that you believe that EJ is a 50 point guy in hiding, while I'm beginning to believe that he's more of an 'own zone' guy. Not because I don't see the skillset that could make him a 50 point guy - that's definitely there. However, I tend to be a fan who values the production a player produces over conjecture of what he could have done, and why he didn't do this or that.

Now, back to Sherman's trade. One aspect of your argument that I never really understood, was how it isn't "fair" to compare point totals from two players to one. Again, my point above is that's what Sherman traded - two players for one. Now, one aspect of this trade that I haven't seen discussed in here, is that Sherman traded two players with lots of RFA years left in them, for one player with lots of RFA years left, and one player who was to be a UFA in 15 months. Perhaps that issue is one where we could look at potential trade disparity, particularly since StL was chock-filled with young forward RFA talent.

Also, as it pertains to McClement and draft picks - I'm not ignoring the draft picks. Sure, one or both of them may turn out to be something special. But I've seen all kinds of high picks turn out to be crap, low round picks turn out to be special, etc - that I simply don't believe they're relevant at this time, in turns of analyzing the trade. McClement I am ignoring, as he's a depth forward, very easily found in today's NHL. As Mitchell has shown.

Finally, I'm not buying into the Stewart/Shattenkirk downside as players, because I think it's somewhat disingenuous. Yes, Stewart was an often defensively lazy, one-way, streaky player last season - particularly at the end of last season - who re-dedicated himself this offseason, and has taken off. Couldn't I replace the word "Stewart" with the word "Duchene" in that last sentence, and have it be about 100% accurate? I simply can't watch all of the Duchene love in here (which I agree with), and at the same time read last year's criticisms of Stewart. I'm as much a fan of the team as anyone, but my hypocrisy does have boundaries. ;)

ABasin 03-14-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avs71 (Post 61619733)
But Beauchemin only has 171 points in 516 games.:sarcasm:

It's funny that even with EJ's ****** offensive production this season and last, he still has career PPG that would be 34 over a full season. Yet he is getting pigeon-holed into being "just" a shutdown defenceman. There is literally no reason why he won't bounce back and get to this level, and beyond.

He's getting "pigeon-holed" because that's what his production indicates.

I agree with you that - given his talent - there should be no reason why he can't get to a 30-40 point per season level. Or even higher.

However, the one point I believe you are not considering, is trend. Yes, EJ is averaging 34 points per 82 gp over his career. Which isn't bad at all (though a little light for me, if we look at the trade and analyze it). However, if you look at his season-by-season 82 game amortization averages over the past 5 years, you'll see that his first two years' of production are pulling that overall average up. In his 5 years, it looks like this:

07-08 - 39 pts
09-10 - 40 pts
10-11 - 31 pts
11-12 - 29 pts
2013 - 11 pts

That is trending the wrong way over time. Which is why I'm concerned. And why he may be "pigeon-holed" now. That will likely continue, unless his offensive production increases.

ABasin 03-14-2013 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av-merican (Post 61620049)
I'll believe it when I see it. Not giving up on the kid by any means, but I'm a bit skeptical at this point. The success of the trade largely rests on EJ getting it together. We'll see.

I'm in this same boat. I believe EJ has the skills to do it, without doubt. But I also know what I see on the ice, and use production to value a player. His offensive production needs to increase fairly dramatically for this trade to be considered a success for the Avs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av-merican (Post 61620049)
In any event, Sherman deserves praise this season for the acquisitions of Parenteau, Mitchell, and Palushaj. He deserves excoriation for the Zanon signing and the way he handled the O'Reilly situation.

It seems that he's doing better with forwards than with defensemen, I guess. I admit that I was neutral on the Parenteau signing last Summer, I kind of shrugged him off as Tavares' linemate. He's a much more creative player than I ever gave him credit for. I like him a lot.

Zanon stinks.

henchman24 03-14-2013 09:57 AM

ABasin... I have one question for you. What was the last team to build their defense around a one dimensional offensive defensemen to win the cup?

Razor29 03-14-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61629025)
He's getting "pigeon-holed" because that's what his production indicates.

I agree with you that - given his talent - there should be no reason why he can't get to a 30-40 point per season level. Or even higher.

However, the one point I believe you are not considering, is trend. Yes, EJ is averaging 34 points per 82 gp over his career. Which isn't bad at all (though a little light for me, if we look at the trade and analyze it). However, if you look at his season-by-season 82 game amortization averages over the past 5 years, you'll see that his first two years' of production are pulling that overall average up. In his 5 years, it looks like this:

07-08 - 39 pts
09-10 - 40 pts
10-11 - 31 pts
11-12 - 29 pts
2013 - 11 pts

That is trending the wrong way over time. Which is why I'm concerned. And why he may be "pigeon-holed" now. That will likely continue, unless his offensive production increases.

A lot of those points are assists. There is no doubt that he was on a better team when he had those higher point seasons.

I am not saying that the team is solely to blame but it does play some part in the drop in production. He's been thrown on the Avs and is being asked to be the #1 guy in front of a bunch of #4-6 D.

ABasin 03-14-2013 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henchman24 (Post 61629305)
ABasin... I have one question for you. What was the last team to build their defense around a one dimensional offensive defensemen to win the cup?

I don't believe there is one. Maybe Edmonton Oilers of the mid-80s with Paul Coffey?

Why do you ask?

ABasin 03-14-2013 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking Mode (Post 61629609)
A lot of those points are assists. There is no doubt that he was on a better team when he had those higher point seasons.

I am not saying that the team is solely to blame but it does play some part in the drop in production. He's been thrown on the Avs and is being asked to be the #1 guy in front of a bunch of #4-6 D.

There is no question that's true. And given the contracts of those #4-6 guys, it might not get better terribly soon. I am hoping for the best at the trade deadline.

However, young pup Tyson Barrie walked on to this same team - with injuries all over the place - and put out far better offensive scoring production and better point play than EJ has this season. (And MUCH worse defense, but that's a given I think).

henchman24 03-14-2013 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61629697)
I don't believe there is one. Maybe Edmonton Oilers of the mid-80s with Paul Coffey?

Why do you ask?

Because that is what Shattenkirk is. You simply can't build a defense around him in today's NHL. EJ for all his faults (I agree that he needs to produce more) is the type of defensemen that you can build around. That is why you trade Shattenkirk and Stewart in a trade for EJ.

Now this is nothing against Shattenkirk, he is a fantastic complimentary piece and one that is still needed for a cup run, he just isn't the first step. Sherman took/is taking a risk that EJ develops. If he doesn't we simply lose the trade, but you can't fault Sherman one bit for making that trade because you have to get the pieces to build around. Sometimes that means taking a risk to do so.

Avs71 03-14-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61629025)
He's getting "pigeon-holed" because that's what his production indicates.

I agree with you that - given his talent - there should be no reason why he can't get to a 30-40 point per season level. Or even higher.

However, the one point I believe you are not considering, is trend. Yes, EJ is averaging 34 points per 82 gp over his career. Which isn't bad at all (though a little light for me, if we look at the trade and analyze it). However, if you look at his season-by-season 82 game amortization averages over the past 5 years, you'll see that his first two years' of production are pulling that overall average up. In his 5 years, it looks like this:

07-08 - 39 pts
09-10 - 40 pts
10-11 - 31 pts
11-12 - 29 pts
2013 - 11 pts

That is trending the wrong way over time. Which is why I'm concerned. And why he may be "pigeon-holed" now. That will likely continue, unless his offensive production increases.

I agree. It is an alarming trend, but there are two other obvious trends here too.
PP Avg TOI/Game
07-08 - 3:44
09-10 - 3:15
10-11 - 2:43
11-12 - 2:19
2013 - 2:14

Shooting %:
07-08 - 4.8
09-10 - 5.4
10-11 - 4.9
11-12 - 2.6 <---Sacco's system full time
2013 - 0 <---- Sacco's system full time


He had a 5.01 career shooting percentage before coming to Colorado. When he first got to Colorado, he had a 5.7 shooting percentage. This all seems fairly consistent (225/312 nhl games). I know I have said it a 100 times, but is it just a coincidence that his shooting percentage fell by almost half the same season that Sacco became his full time coach? I don't mean that in the sense that Sacco has brainwashed him or something, but the way Sacco uses the forwards and EJ on the powerplay is no doubt contributing to why his shooting percentage is 50% less than it should be.

To further add:
In his 225 games before he had to play in Sacco's system, he had 101 points. Averages to 36 points over a full season.

In his 87 games under Sacco, he has 28 points. Averages to 26 points over a full season.

So which is the real EJ Johnson? The one who for 72% of his career to date has had a 5.01 shooting percentage and averaged 36 points a season. Or is the one for who for 28 % of his career has a 26 point season average, and a shooting percentage close to 2.

ABasin 03-14-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henchman24 (Post 61630083)
Because that is what Shattenkirk is. You simply can't build a defense around him in today's NHL. EJ for all his faults (I agree that he needs to produce more) is the type of defensemen that you can build around.

I don't disagree with any of that. I have no problem with the Avs moving Shattenkirk for different assets, and I have no problem with EJ on the Avs. In truth, I wouldn't have an issue with the Avs trading any player they have, as long as the assets coming back are equal in value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henchman24 (Post 61630083)
That is why you trade Shattenkirk and Stewart in a trade for EJ.

I do disagree with that. Too expensive of an asset swap, given what production the Avs got back, and what production StL got.

henchman24 03-14-2013 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61630311)
I do disagree with that. Too expensive, given what production the Avs got back.

So who else could the Avs have gotten that would have been as good of building piece for cheaper or less? Suter wasn't coming here. JJ sucks defensively. Luke Schenn is worse offensively.

ABasin 03-14-2013 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avs71 (Post 61630307)
I agree. It is an alarming trend, but there are two other obvious trends here too.
PP Avg TOI/Game
07-08 - 3:44
09-10 - 3:15
10-11 - 2:43
11-12 - 2:19
2013 - 2:14

Shooting %:
07-08 - 4.8
09-10 - 5.4
10-11 - 4.9
11-12 - 2.6 <---Sacco's system full time
2013 - 0 <---- Sacco's system full time


He had a 5.01 career shooting percentage before coming to Colorado. When he first got to Colorado, he had a 5.7 shooting percentage. This all seems fairly consistent (225/312 nhl games). I know I have said it a 100 times, but is it just a coincidence that his shooting percentage fell by almost half the same season that Sacco became his full time coach? I don't mean that in the sense that Sacco has brainwashed him or something, but the way Sacco uses the forwards and EJ on the powerplay is no doubt contributing to why his shooting percentage is 50% less than it should be.

I've never seen it put quite that way. Interesting thought.

However, when presented with EJ's lack of production from the point, I keep coming back to the same thing: why did Barrie seem to not have any problem with it? O'R is starting to bomb from there also.

EJ has a bomb of a shot. He just doesn't seem to me to have the same aptitude from the point that he has in other areas of the ice. Not sure why. Would be great to see him regain it.

Avs71 03-14-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61630771)
I've never seen it put quite that way. Interesting thought.

However, when presented with EJ's lack of production from the point, I keep coming back to the same thing: why did Barrie seem to not have any problem with it? O'R is starting to bomb from there also.

EJ has a bomb of a shot. He just doesn't seem to me to have the same aptitude from the point that he has in other areas of the ice. Not sure why. Would be great to see him regain it.

Personally, I would think it is because Barrie has a quicker release on his shot. He also only has 1 goal, so it is hard to say whether he will be a goal scoring defenceman or primarily rack up assists. Barrie was also a lot more adventurous. I think his mobility to get right up in the play helps, where Johnson's production needs to be from long stretch passes (like the breakaway Landeskog got the other night), heavy point shots that go in, or rebounds that get put in the net.

I don't think EJ should be a powerplay quarterback. He has good passing ability, but he doesn't move it quick enough. This is where Barrie trumps him. However, EJ has the hardest shot on the team. I seriously don't get why Sacco didn't keep Barrie up, and make Barrie-EJ the second powerplay unit. He has 3 grinding forwards out there. Put EJ on the left side, let Barrie pass him the puck, and let the big guys like McGinn and Jones jam home some rebounds.

One other thing to note with EJ's point production is I think a lot of his assists have come off his shot creating a rebound. Since his shots aren't even getting through, I think it cuts out a big portion of what would be his assists. If the Avs could get him in a position to get a good shot off, I bet you'd see his goals and assists increase.

cgf 03-14-2013 10:40 AM

No doubt EJ's play on the point is the weakest part of his game, but we didn't get him to be our creative #3 dman and PPQB, we got him to man our first pairing that anchors us defensively, he's done that. Now I fully admit that I don't value points too much from a top pairing, points are great, but being able to get the puck back from top lines and move it up ice are far more important to me, and EJ does that extremely well. I make the trade for those reasons. Yes we paid a high price, and yes we dealt from a less established position of strength than STL (as Petro was already kicking ass in the NHL while Barrie was still a year away and Elliott even further), but the trade brought us back a piece that fills a much more valuable role, a role that's very hard to fill and a role we didn't have anyone even close to being able to fill.

Ivan13 03-14-2013 10:46 AM

EJ is much like Chara when it comes to his release speed. He takes forever to take a slap shot so the PKers can move up and close the shooting lanes, he needs a good PPQB next to himslef, someone who can draw attention to himself and feed the puck to a wide open EJ and right now we have no one on the roster that fits that bill.

Avs71 03-14-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 61631605)
EJ is much like Chara when it comes to his release speed. He takes forever to take a slap shot so the PKers can move up and close the shooting lanes, he needs a good PPQB next to himslef, someone who can draw attention to himself and feed puck to a wide open EJ and right now we have no one on the roster that fits that bill.

I'd venture to bet O'Reilly or Barrie could.

Man I'd love Sherman to stick it to Sacco and trade his precious "vets" and call up Barrie.

Razor29 03-14-2013 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61629869)
There is no question that's true. And given the contracts of those #4-6 guys, it might not get better terribly soon. I am hoping for the best at the trade deadline.

However, young pup Tyson Barrie walked on to this same team - with injuries all over the place - and put out far better offensive scoring production and better point play than EJ has this season. (And MUCH worse defense, but that's a given I think).

That's fair, however Barrie was brought up for his offensive capabilities. Barrie was partnered with Hejda allowing him to be more free with the puck and not to have to worry as much about defending as a guy like Johnson would. Barrie was also not given much PK time (not looking at stats) and given a lot of PP time.

We usually see Johnson with guys like Hunwick, Wilson and co. Guys he has to help cover defensively most of the time.

Foppa2118 03-14-2013 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Oh, no question he has better puck and skating skills than O'Byrne. But if you're of the belief that EJ is a 50 point player who is simply in a slump, then I completely understand why you argue against StL winning the trade. And if you believe that, fine - but I simply don't see that production. I see the innate skillset, but not the production. And without the production, he's simply not a two-way 1st pairing guy. He's a really good defensive defenseman. I'm sorry, but 9 points over his last half season isn't 'offensive defenseman' territory. Nor is 26 points over the entire season before. He's pretty far away, and has been for awhile.

Well that's not really fair to paint it as you're either a defensive defenseman, or a 50 point offensive defenseman. Calling EJ a defensive defensemen has some rhetoric to it. Even if you take EJ as what he is now, he's a two way defenseman that's a very safe bet for 25-30 points.

I don't know why you think EJ has to have top end production to be a first pairing guy either. This is what separates him and Shattenkirk, and why EJ is easier to build a team around. He can play a big role as a two way guy on a top pairing without having to light it up offensively, Shattenkirk can't. He has to score, otherwise he's not bringing enough to the table

You're cherry picking a lot of stats too with your arguments, combining Shatty's and Stewarts numbers against EJ's, and now saying he has 9 points over his last half a season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
OK, let's forget the 15 player thing - that was stupid of me. I'm throwing too many analogies out there and confusing the issue.

How about the Liles and Bozak for Mark Staal idea. Pretty similar in terms of your example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Bottom line: Sherman traded two 1st/2nd line/pairing guys for one. Yes, there was a depth player and a couple of draft picks out there also, but here and now, the big deal is the three players. So it's entirely reasonable and appropriate to compare what those players are currently bringing to their respective teams.

With all due respect AB, you keep saying this but this simply isn't true. This was not the trade. The trade was Shatty, Stewart, and a 2nd for EJ, McClement, and a 1st. The first brought in Siemens who by all accounts is progressing nicely, and McClement was great for the Avs, but was rumored to have turned down a much better offer from them to go play in Toronto.

You can't just distill it down to Shatty and Stewart for EJ. Not only are you relying on hindsight, you're also ignoring what McClement brought, and the 11th overall pick in Siemens who is still developing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
I've compared the offensive contributions and it's a whopping landslide in favor of StL. I suspect you'd agree. So, that leaves us with the defensive contributions. There's no question in my mind that EJ is the best defensive player of the three. However, the Avs gave up over 100 points per season in those two 1st/2nd line players. IMO, there's no level of defense EJ can play to make up for that. There's just not. You may disagree with that of course, but I'd then believe you wrong. That's why I tried to draw the Crosby analogy.

Of course it's a landslide, you're combing a forward and D, ignoring all the other elements of the deal, and comparing that to EJ's numbers. This 100 point thing is totally irrelevant IMO. It's no way to evaluate this deal.

Unless you want to inclue McClement's totals while he was here, get a crystal ball and calculate Rattie and Siemen's point totals, and find some way to quantify EJ's, Siemens, McClement's, Shatty's, Stewarts, and Rattie's defensive impact during games that isn't +/-.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Now, if EJ played this type of defense and made up, say, 50 points of offense also, then that changes everything. But there's a *huge* difference between a 20 minute per night 1st pairing defenseman scoring 50 points, and scoring 10 points - which is where we're headed this season. If I'm putting words in your mouth, then I apologize ahead of time, but it seems that you believe that EJ is a 50 point guy in hiding, while I'm beginning to believe that he's more of an 'own zone' guy. Not because I don't see the skillset that could make him a 50 point guy - that's definitely there. However, I tend to be a fan who values the production a player produces over conjecture of what he could have done, and why he didn't do this or that.

EJ's a 10 point guy now? Haha, he's gonna be 5'2" 120lbs too by the end of this argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Now, back to Sherman's trade. One aspect of your argument that I never really understood, was how it isn't "fair" to compare point totals from two players to one. Again, my point above is that's what Sherman traded - two players for one. Now, one aspect of this trade that I haven't seen discussed in here, is that Sherman traded two players with lots of RFA years left in them, for one player with lots of RFA years left, and one player who was to be a UFA in 15 months. Perhaps that issue is one where we could look at potential trade disparity, particularly since StL was chock-filled with young forward RFA talent.

No it isn't! Come on AB you have to know this is not true, and is unfair to call it as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Also, as it pertains to McClement and draft picks - I'm not ignoring the draft picks. Sure, one or both of them may turn out to be something special. But I've seen all kinds of high picks turn out to be crap, low round picks turn out to be special, etc - that I simply don't believe they're relevant at this time, in turns of analyzing the trade. McClement I am ignoring, as he's a depth forward, very easily found in today's NHL. As Mitchell has shown

Sure that's true with draft picks, but you can't try to accurately analyze the trade if you're ignoring the value of the picks. The value of a 1st round pick is completely relevant when analyzing the trade, unless you just want to paint it as a two for one trade which is what you're doing.

And Mitchell has been great for the Avs. He would have been heralded as a throw in to the trade like McClement was. You can't just discount it completely, like he wasn't part of the deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABasin (Post 61628617)
Finally, I'm not buying into the Stewart/Shattenkirk downside as players, because I think it's somewhat disingenuous. Yes, Stewart was an often defensively lazy, one-way, streaky player last season - particularly at the end of last season - who re-dedicated himself this offseason, and has taken off. Couldn't I replace the word "Stewart" with the word "Duchene" in that last sentence, and have it be about 100% accurate? I simply can't watch all of the Duchene love in here (which I agree with), and at the same time read last year's criticisms of Stewart. I'm as much a fan of the team as anyone, but my hypocrisy does have boundaries. ;)

I don't think either is terrible defensively. I think they're about average. But you can't devalue EJ's contributions defensively (to go along with his skating and puck movement) while also ignoring their deficiencies defensively.

It's just creating the perfect storm argument and cherry picking all the aspects of the deal, and of their skill sets, and the amount of combined points, and slanting everything unfairly in their direction.

You can't compare Duchene and Stewart's work ethic either. Duchene always worked hard since his first game in the NHL. It was the way he thought the game that was holding him back, and the re-dedication to his diet and off ice training has only helped with his explosiveness and staying fresh longer playing the way he does.

Stewart would go half seasons or more pretty invisible like Jones does. They're very comparable players actually, except Stewart has a little more natural talent, and is bigger and can be meaner when he wants to be. He took shifts and games off all the time. Something Duchene almost never does, even if he's not scoring due to other reasons. Stewart is just more impactful when he's on a hot streak, and he was on one to start the season while Jones has been cold. If you would have compared the two in the second half of last year after the McGinn trade it would have been a totally different story, and no one was crying about losing Stewart then either.

I don't know if you've noticed my comments in other threads, but I have very similar concerns over EJ's offensive IQ, and that it holds him back from being able to put up a lot of points, especially PP points. The difference is though that I think if he was paired with a guy like Yandle, or Enstrom or someone more offensive it would pull him into the offensive mix and he easily could be a 40 point guy again. He wouldn't have to do all the thinking out there, because the other guy who's more suited for that would take over, and EJ can just focus on his talents offensively, rather than trying to make everything happen himself.

If he gets that right partner, and Siemens continues along the path that he seems to be on, people won't be so up in arms about the deal. Especially if Stewart continues along his usual hot/cold path. That's what I believe.

Nihiliste 03-14-2013 11:11 AM

I don't know that I agree with saying Shattenkirk is a one dimensional dman. His defense has improved leaps and bounds and right now it looks like he's improving all the time. If the pens can build their D around a guy like Kris Letang or the Lightning/Sharks around Dan Boyle for years there's no saying Shattenkirk couldn't become that type of player.

Anyways, EJ obviously needs more PP time to be successful but the thing is, he has to earn PP time. When you see him out there hesitating for a full couple seconds until a PKer can get in the lane and then unload right into his shins, it's hard to think he's earning his time out there. It's not like he has great vision/passing on the PP either.

It could well be a confidence thing and he's a lot better when he's leaned on, but the time for excuses is rapidly coming to an end with each year that he's in the league. I would like to see what he could do with a better partner and better PP coach but its not like we're seeing great evidence of the tools out there. Definitely see a lot more Coburn and a lot less Pietrangelo in him offensively.

AslanRH 03-14-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 61631605)
EJ is much like Chara when it comes to his release speed. He takes forever to take a slap shot so the PKers can move up and close the shooting lanes, he needs a good PPQB next to himslef, someone who can draw attention to himself and feed the puck to a wide open EJ and right now we have no one on the roster that fits that bill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan13 (Post 61632627)
I want to see more of Radar before I consider him a decent PPQB, as for Barrie he will most likely become one down the road, but I don't think he has it right now.

I think Elliott will be the guy EJ has with him on the PP. Barrie will be on the 2nd unit due to his better defensive recovery skills and probably with ROR on point if he keeps playing well there.

in regards to the trade:
When Sherman made the trade
-Shatty was a top 4 Offensive Dman with the potential to improve his defensive game. He was just as likely to become Liles as he was to be Suter.
-Stewart was a hot and cold (and IMO moody) PFWD with the potential to be a monster player. He was just as likely to be Jerome Iginla as he was Ryan Clowe.
-EJ was considered a sure fire top pairing Dman with the potential to be Elite 2 way #1. This type of player is much harder to find than either of the 2 above. He could easily become Lidstrom or Foote.
-1st round pick allows a team to choose a player they want that has the potential to be a future great player in a position of need.

discounting all the secondary pieces, this trade based on the projections and potential was not as lopsided as it seems now.
Perhaps EJ and the pick (Siemans)will never reach their top end and Shatty and Stewart do, then one could argue the Avs lost the trade. However, until these careers are over, we won't know. At the time the trade was based on a fairly equal risk/reward for both teams.

iceberg 03-14-2013 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AslanRH (Post 61640749)
EJ was considered a sure fire top pairing Dman with the potential to be Elite 2 way #1. This type of player is much harder to find than either of the 2 above. He could easily become Lidstrom or Foote.

- At the time of the trade NO. He was a disapointment and the Blues gave up on him.

- Lidstrom, really??? Blake maybe, Lidstrom no way!!!

S E P H 03-14-2013 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceberg (Post 61681657)
- At the time of the trade NO. He was a disapointment and the Blues gave up on him.

- Lidstrom, really??? Blake maybe, Lidstrom no way!!!

No with the emergence of Pietrangelo they were able to trade him for a weakness, which was a goalscoring forward and a PMD.

We traded good pieces for a #1 defenseman we needed.


This is what they got.

S E P H 03-14-2013 10:11 PM

we*

Serious this inability to edit posts is effin retarded.

Foppa2118 03-14-2013 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S E P H (Post 61683095)
No with the emergence of Pietrangelo they were able to trade him for a weakness, which was a goalscoring forward and a PMD.

We traded good pieces for a #1 defenseman we needed.


This is what they got.

Look how much better at skating, and handling the puck, and jumping into the play, and at shooting he is there than pretty much any time we've seen him.

He needs to be put in situations where he can succeed, and in a system that promotes more offense from the D. Compare that shift to the guy that just plays solid D most of the time, and sits at the point only to take the occasional shot on net that gets blocked.

His offensive skills have probably atrophied his whole tenure in Colorado because Sacco has no idea how to implement a proper system that involves the defenseman contributing on offense, and the forwards contributing on defense.

It's all just hey forwards go score, D you know just fall down in front of shots and then get off the ice.


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