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-   -   Proposal: Philly and Ottawa (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1381143)

Curtinho 03-20-2013 07:23 PM

Philly and Ottawa
 
They seem like good partners right now. What kind of package would Cowen + Bishop or Wiercioch + Bishop grab us?

Obviously Philly has no problems up front. Ottawa could really use a top 6 winger with top 3 potential.

I'm thinking one of Simmonds or Voracek coming back to Ottawa.

Bishop + Wiercioch + 3rd 2013 or Cowen + Bishop for one of the two.

Benjamin 03-20-2013 07:25 PM

Voracek or no interest.

stempniaksen 03-20-2013 07:28 PM

I wouldn't move Cowen at this stage, regardless of how good our young depth on defence has looked. I think the only deal that would make any sense at all would be Bishop + for Briere/Read. Sens won't give up the assets required for a guy like Voracek or Simmonds.

SolidSnakeUS 03-20-2013 07:29 PM

Voracek has 11 more points than your top point getter (Gonchar) and that's it? He has a great cap hit and has proven himself more than all of them combined.

Roo Mad Bro 03-20-2013 07:33 PM

1st package is awful.

2nd is better, but still wouldn't do it.

achdumeingute 03-20-2013 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny FTW (Post 62059029)
Voracek or no interest.

Phone goes click.

achdumeingute 03-20-2013 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62058817)
I'm thinking one of Simmonds or Voracek coming back to Ottawa.

Don't get your hopes up.

Coconut Head 03-20-2013 07:39 PM

I don't think Wiercioch+3rd is equal in value to Cowen

orangecrush8 03-20-2013 07:40 PM

Getting Voracek will take a whole heck of a lot more than Bishop and Wercioch

Curtinho 03-20-2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro (Post 62059611)
1st package is awful.

2nd is better, but still wouldn't do it.

What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.

orangecrush8 03-20-2013 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62060175)
What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.

Its really not at all

SolidSnakeUS 03-20-2013 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62060175)
What's awful about it? It's not far off in value from the second package and Wiercioch is more in in the mould of a guy that Philly could really benefit from. Cowen has offensive potential, but not nearly at the level of a Wiercioch (who is just scratching the surface now). I'm not trying to give these players away, they're good and still have a ton of upside...I'm just thinking in terms of our needs vs. Philly's needs.

Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop + Cowen + 3rd 2013 is the highest I'd be willing to go. It's good value both ways IMO and Ottawa has more than enough defensive depth to lose Cowen and Bishop.

Bishop is the 3rd string compared to Lehner and Anderson. Wiercioch is just a rookie and hasn't proven all that much. And as you said, Cowen has potential, but nothing more as of right now. Voracek is an established top line winger. Simmonds is a top 6 winger as well, and both have proven more than all of those players combined. Plus, they have great contracts. Zero point for the Flyers to ever do this.

Prongo 03-20-2013 07:42 PM

I don't think teams really want to take a risk on Cowen until he is fully recovered and playing again on his hip. Scary trading for a player coming off serious hip surgery, you never know if he will have the same movement when he comes back.

Novak Djokovic 03-20-2013 07:42 PM

Yeah, Voracek is going nowhere.

McManked 03-20-2013 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prongo (Post 62060355)
I don't think teams really want to take a risk on Cowen until he is fully recovered and playing again on his hip. Scary trading for a player coming off serious hip surgery, you never know if he will have the same movement when he comes back.

I won't disagree with you, but instead add that this goes both ways.

Teams don't want to take the risk, and the Sens don't want to move a potential #2 defenceman who's value isn't that high right now. Why Cowen is being brought up in any trade proposal boggles my mind.

SolidSnakeUS 03-20-2013 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manked (Post 62060471)
I won't disagree with you, but instead add that this goes both ways.

Teams don't want to take the risk, and the Sens don't want to move a potential #2 defenceman who's value isn't that high right now. Why Cowen is being brought up in any trade proposal boggles my mind.

Same with Voracek/Simmonds being mentioned with these other players. No idea why this was made.

Jack de la Hoya 03-20-2013 07:47 PM

There are a few different OTT-PHI threads going on right now. There's a reason, I think--the Senators seem to have an extra goalie and a few defensive prospects, both of which are areas of weakness for the Flyers.

That said, the Flyers will not move Voracek or Simmonds at present. I think Bishop + Cowen + 3rd is probably a net win value-wise for the Flyers (if Cowen is healthy and reaches his potential), but they shouldn't do it. Cowen looks a promising young defenseman, but so much of what is said about him reminds me of Coburn, and as good as Coburn can be (and has been in the past), that's not what the Flyers need right now.

Bishop + Wierioch for Read (+) has been kicked around, and might be something that makes more sense. He's still young enough to fit in OTT's core, can give you 2nd line production and play in all situations, and is cheap this year and next year.

I'm not wild about that return, but that's because I see no reason to move Read. It is probably fair value, and if the Flyers are going to move one of their three top-six RWs, it is Read.

Curtinho 03-20-2013 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS (Post 62060341)
Bishop is the 3rd string compared to Lehner and Anderson. Wiercioch is just a rookie and hasn't proven all that much. And as you said, Cowen has potential, but nothing more as of right now. Voracek is an established top line winger. Simmonds is a top 6 winger as well, and both have proven more than all of those players combined. Plus, they have great contracts. Zero point for the Flyers to ever do this.

Cowen played the entire season last year in the NHL and has dominated every level he's played at. Bishop is sporting starting goaltending numbers regardless of where he is on the depth chart and he's still pretty raw.

It's cool though. Every proposal on this board gets shot down because people don't ever offer enough.

Curtinho 03-20-2013 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya (Post 62060749)
Bishop + Wierioch for Read (+) has been kicked around, and might be something that makes more sense. He's still young enough to fit in OTT's core, can give you 2nd line production and play in all situations, and is cheap this year and next year.

I'm not wild about that return, but that's because I see no reason to move Read. It is probably fair value, and if the Flyers are going to move one of their three top-six RWs, it is Read.

That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.

Prongo 03-20-2013 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62060969)
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.

This is why we have such difficulties on this board. Wiercioch does not hold more value than Matt Read. Yes Wiercioch has impressed this year, but not we over value young puck moving defenseman on these boards all the time.

You aren't valuing Read like you should either. PP quarterback, PK player, 50 point 2nd liner, great speed and has a great shot. All heart and soul guy. Torn Ribs cartilage right now. We all just seem to think that Read was a UFA college free agent, we don't want to give anything for him! This shouldn't be the case. Yes, he is 26 and still has room to improve his game in the NHL. He might not be the flashiest player, but gets the job done. Read also holds another year on his deal for 900k before hitting UFA. He won't be a cheap sell like so many people believe.

Jack de la Hoya 03-20-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62060969)
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.

You don't see the (potential) contradiction there?

Curufinwe 03-20-2013 08:01 PM

If Read was fully healthy he should be taking Hartnell's spot on the top line. The Flyers may eventually have to deal him when he's about to become a UFA, but there's no need to give him away.

flyershockey 03-20-2013 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cujomi (Post 62060969)
That's an overpayment for Read. Wiercioch alone is worth more than Read...something around Bishop + is ok, but yeah clearly you guys don't value our players so this discussion is pointless.

Even taking into account their ages, that is just simply not true. Wiercioch needs to have a hell of a season just to have a comparable rookie season to Read's. That also doesn't begin to take into account that Read is one of the most versatile forwards in the NHL. He can play all three forward positions and in just about any role and put up 20-25 goals a season. He kills penalties and plays well on the powerplay. I really think the Flyers should think very hard before giving him up or underselling on him. Versatile forwards in Read's mold are very important to successful teams.

JackStraw 03-20-2013 08:02 PM

The Flyers are deep at center, not wing. Voracek and Simmonds are the team's two best wingers. I doubt there is any desire on the part of the Flyers to move either one of them when they could probably get a better return for Couturier. Value in these proposals may or may not be fair, but the Flyers can hurt themselves less with a different approach.

Jack de la Hoya 03-20-2013 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufinwe (Post 62062021)
If Read was fully healthy he should be taking Hartnell's spot on the top line. The Flyers may eventually have to deal him when he's about to become a UFA, but there's no need to give him away.

I'm not even sure they will have to.

If they buy-out (or trade) Briere, there are no cap issues next year. They have plenty of space to bring everyone back and make some moves.

They can resign Gagne for slightly less than he is making now ($3.5) on a one-year deal, and then, if needed, use that money to give Read the raise he deserves after next season (as well as resigning Giroux (thus the Briere buyout) and giving Schenn and Couturier their raises.


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