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-   -   The Flyers at Even Strength and Giroux (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1382405)

Jtown 03-22-2013 08:57 AM

The Flyers at Even Strength and Giroux
 
The Flyers put up some gaudy numbers last year for. WE had a unusual amount of career years for players across the board, which was something I felt was impossible to sustain this year. Many things contributed to this, one of the biggest is the exorbitant amount of PP opportunities we had last year.

This year every player, sans vorabeast, has fallen back to earth Giroux included. But what is alarming is the fact that the numbers are not due to a lack of PP chances but due to horrific even strength play.

As of now we are 1 goal back of the PP goal lead , and percentage wise we are 8th.

So the PP chances are there and can't explain for our lack of production compared to last year. THe Even- strength play on the other hand is a whole different story.

IM a big believer that Even strength play is what determines the success of a team over the long haul. If you look throughout history, teams within the top 10 of most even strength goals per game find themselves deep in the playoffs.

One of the players that i feel whose stats are inflated due to our PP is Giroux. Over half his pts this year have come from the pp.

Crosby ,Toews, Sedin's, Kane, Kopitar , Getzlaf etc etc not one of these players have generated 1/3 of their pts from the PP. These players are dominating the Even strength play.

The flyers use to be a team that dominated in the even strength as well, and when you look at our roster the talent is not matching the production. As much as i love giroux , i wouldhesistate to give him a big deal right now. IMO he is not a top 10 center in the league, and relies heavily on pp production.

Another player who has dropped in production recently is Schenn. Since Vorabeast was promoted to the first line his production has fallen fast. I think he is another player who's stats have been inflated by the talent around him.

BillDineen 03-22-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jtown (Post 62164903)
The Flyers put up some gaudy numbers last year for. WE had a unusual amount of career years for players across the board, which was something I felt was impossible to sustain this year. Many things contributed to this, one of the biggest is the exorbitant amount of PP opportunities we had last year.

This year every player, sans vorabeast, has fallen back to earth Giroux included. But what is alarming is the fact that the numbers are not due to a lack of PP chances but due to horrific even strength play.

As of now we are 1 goal back of the PP goal lead , and percentage wise we are 8th.

So the PP chances are there and can't explain for our lack of production compared to last year. THe Even- strength play on the other hand is a whole different story.

IM a big believer that Even strength play is what determines the success of a team over the long haul. If you look throughout history, teams within the top 10 of most even strength goals per game find themselves deep in the playoffs.

One of the players that i feel whose stats are inflated due to our PP is Giroux. Over half his pts this year have come from the pp.

Crosby ,Toews, Sedin's, Kane, Kopitar , Getzlaf etc etc not one of these players have generated 1/3 of their pts from the PP. These players are dominating the Even strength play.

The flyers use to be a team that dominated in the even strength as well, and when you look at our roster the talent is not matching the production. As much as i love giroux , i wouldhesistate to give him a big deal right now. IMO he is not a top 10 center in the league, and relies heavily on pp production.

Another player who has dropped in production recently is Schenn. Since Vorabeast was promoted to the first line his production has fallen fast. I think he is another player who's stats have been inflated by the talent around him.

Just imagine if that 1rst PP unit was not clicking? Scary.

Protest 03-22-2013 09:17 AM

All of those players have scored more than 1/3 of their points on the PP in various seasons. Many have scored over 40%. The year Crosby had 120 points half of them were on the PP.

chromemaro 03-22-2013 09:22 AM

I agree with most of your post.

I think we came into last season with low expectations and were blown away. Because of that, the bar was set high for this year.

This team is no doubt playing not as well as they should be...we should be a 7-8-9 team (in the conference) IMO and we are playing like a 12-13-14 team.



However, I disagree with your trading of Giroux. Even if he is not a top 10 Center in the league (questionable), he is still the BEST center on the team by far and will be for the considerable future.

Jtown 03-22-2013 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chromemaro (Post 62165807)
I agree with most of your post.

I think we came into last season with low expectations and were blown away. Because of that, the bar was set high for this year.

This team is no doubt playing not as well as they should be...we should be a 7-8-9 team (in the conference) IMO and we are playing like a 12-13-14 team.



However, I disagree with your trading of Giroux. Even if he is not a top 10 Center in the league (questionable), he is still the BEST center on the team by far and will be for the considerable future.

Ok he is the best center on this team....if we give him a getzlaf, perry type deal it will cripple this team for the future.

FlyersFan61290 03-22-2013 09:30 AM

Schenn is 21 and inconsistent which is to be expected. theres nothing wrong with that. and if your suggesting that Voracek made him better then yeah he did. He's made everyone better that he's played with this year.

I'm concerned about G's contract too cause I think he will be around a ppg mot of his career which is great but he'll probably get super-star money instead of all-star money.

Protest 03-22-2013 09:37 AM

Also, 45% of Voracek's points came on the PP this year.

ayshplaysh 03-22-2013 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jtown (Post 62166073)
Ok he is the best center on this team....if we give him a getzlaf, perry type deal it will cripple this team for the future.

How do you figure that? There are pieces on the team that are making huge salary that are movable (Briere, Timonen, Bryz) that will make plunty of room to fit these younger players second contracts.

Let's just keep hoping G takes another discount on the contract like he did with the last one it'd make things a lot easier.

WeekendAtBernies 03-22-2013 10:13 AM

Evgeni Malkin this year:
At Even Stength: 2 goals, 10 points
On Powerplay: 3 goals, 14 points
I feel sorry for the Penguins. They are about to give this bum who gets over 50% of his points on the powerplay a franchise-crippling contract. :sarcasm:

Stamkos in 09-10: 43.6% of pts on powerplay
Stamkos in 10-11: 39.5%
St. Louis in 10-11: 41.4%
Thornton in 10-11: 48.5%
Daniel Sedin in 10-11: 40.4%
All overrated non top-10 players at their positions.

But Giroux is even worse, because he's doing this through 30 games of a lockout shortened season. Such a bum. Trade him, quickly.

chromemaro 03-22-2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jtown (Post 62166073)
Ok he is the best center on this team....if we give him a getzlaf, perry type deal it will cripple this team for the future.


Cripple the team?

We have 12 million of our cap space next year will be briere and kimo. Which will both come off the books in time for his extension.

Jtown 03-22-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chromemaro (Post 62169695)
Cripple the team?

We have 12 million of our cap space next year will be briere and kimo. Which will both come off the books in time for his extension.

both of whom can be traded or amnestied.

RJ8812* 03-22-2013 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chromemaro (Post 62169695)
Cripple the team?

We have 12 million of our cap space next year will be briere and kimo. Which will both come off the books in time for his extension.

that doesnt mean it's alright to give him a Getzlaf contract

Mgkibbles 03-22-2013 11:38 AM

Unless Giroux has a winger that's dominate during ES he's not likely to put up big numbers 5v5. Roux will probably always be just a good ES player, and one of the best, if not the best PP Qb. Which is fine.

1865 03-22-2013 12:00 PM

It's a year of adjustment for G. He's closed down by everyone to the nth degree right now, he's just got to learn to make a little more space for himself.

Next year will be hella good.

Clown Baby* 03-22-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ8812 (Post 62170699)
that doesnt mean it's alright to give him a Getzlaf contract

Amen.

Beef Invictus 03-22-2013 01:37 PM

The whole team seems to struggle at even strength. When that happens for two whole months, I look at the coach. Something isn't working with his plan.

Curufinwe 03-22-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ8812 (Post 62170699)
that doesnt mean it's alright to give him a Getzlaf contract

If the Flyers don't want to give him him $8 million a year another team will.

shipwreck 03-22-2013 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufinwe (Post 62180545)
If the Flyers don't want to give him him $8 million a year another team will.

sho nuff...

GKJ 03-22-2013 03:17 PM

The entire team is producing at even strength at the same rate as an 8-win Panthers team. They haven't been good, and they've been less lucky. PDO is way down across the board.

ahthorne 03-22-2013 04:14 PM

Giroux is one of the best PP players in the league, and he's probably one of the most creative and skilled offensive players in the league. Jakub Voracek and possibly Matt Read are the only other players on this team that has been consistant offensively.

Giroux had 38 PP points last season. Something like 40% of his production. To be honest, I don't have any issues with Giroux's play this year other than he's not producing at the rate he could be, possibly because he's also being relied on defensively. Schenn and Couturier are sophomore slumping and Hartnell and Briere have both missed time and really been awful. That, coupled with an inept defense, is the recipe for Claude Giroux to have a rough season as he's already in a situation where he needs to be elite but he has NO support other than Voracek, Timonen and a few others.

BringBackStevens 03-22-2013 05:35 PM

It makes sense that him and the team look just fine on the PP but less so at even strength. With the way this team is struggling to move the puck up the ice that has a much larger effect at even strength than on the power play.

I think it's a symptom of a flaw on the team a lot more than anything to do with him. He's not getting as many opportunities with the puck in dangerous places on the ice as he was last year.

Curufinwe 03-22-2013 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahthorne (Post 62186787)
Giroux is one of the best PP players in the league, and he's probably one of the most creative and skilled offensive players in the league. Jakub Voracek and possibly Matt Read are the only other players on this team that has been consistant offensively.

Giroux had 38 PP points last season. Something like 40% of his production. To be honest, I don't have any issues with Giroux's play this year other than he's not producing at the rate he could be, possibly because he's also being relied on defensively. Schenn and Couturier are sophomore slumping and Hartnell and Briere have both missed time and really been awful. That, coupled with an inept defense, is the recipe for Claude Giroux to have a rough season as he's already in a situation where he needs to be elite but he has NO support other than Voracek, Timonen and a few others.

He also has no faceoff support and consequently has taken more faceoffs than any other player in the league. The Flyers really need to bring a Boyd Gordon type to take some of the defensive zone draws Giroux has been taking.

Clown Baby* 03-22-2013 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufinwe (Post 62180545)
If the Flyers don't want to give him him $8 million a year another team will.

Then you let them. The Flyers have a good enough foundation* that if Giroux walks for four firsts, you take the compensation, and add that depth to your organization over the next four years. Then, after year four, you can deal the firsts and seconds to get the player that'll get you over the top. It could even be Giroux (see Gratton).

We've seen what happened to Pitkanen, Richards, Carter and Gagne. They had some incredible seasons for the Flyers. In Pitkanen and Carter's case, it was actually closer to one. Still, if the Flyers were offered four first for either of those players, I don't think anyone here knowing what we now know wouldn't take those picks.

*Top nine forwards - Voracek, Hartnell, Read, Simmonds
*Third-line forwards - Schenn, Couturier
*Fourth-line forwards - McGinn, Rinaldo, Laughton
*Extras - Zolnierczyk, Wellwood, Holmstrom, Cousins

*3/4 defensemen - Coburn, Grossmann, Meszaros, Schenn
*5/6 defensemen - Gustafsson
*Extras - Manning

We're not that far out...

WeekendAtBernies 03-23-2013 12:26 AM

Wow. A bad start followed by 20 points in 17 games and people are starting to suggest we let him go for 4 late firsts. :laugh:

One guy is even saying those 4 late 1sts could help us land a player better than Giroux. Because those 4 1sts + a ridiculously unfavorable contract structure clearly got us Shea Weber :laugh:.

This fan base... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I always knew it was possible certain members of our fan base would turn on Giroux, I just thought it'd take a little more than 30 games of "only" .9 PPG performance.

GTopCheese 03-23-2013 12:42 AM

He'd probably have better ES numbers if Hartnell wasn't useless so far. Need someone else on the LW.


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