HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3)
-   -   Proposal: Vancouver-Phoenix (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1390643)

geebaan 03-31-2013 02:48 AM

Vancouver-Phoenix
 
With the Coyotes looking less like a playoff team by the day, and an ownership situation in turmoil, I can see them wanting to shed some salary to look for the future.

Antoine Vermette
Michael Stone

for

Jordan Schroeder
Keith Ballard
2nd Round Pick
5th Round pick

thoughts?

StringerBell 03-31-2013 03:10 AM

If you see them wanting to shed salary, why are you sending them Keith Ballard?

rt 03-31-2013 03:11 AM

Easy no from a Phoenix stand point. I consider the two Phoenix players the two best assets in the deal.

ronnyweed 03-31-2013 03:16 AM

Undersized underwhelming prospect and overrated d with high salary for actual assets? Maloney is a little smarter than that

biturbo19 03-31-2013 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StringerBell (Post 62840955)
If you see them wanting to shed salary, why are you sending them Keith Ballard?

Yeah. idgi.

They want to 'shed salary'...so they send out ~$4.6M, but take on ~$5.2M? Including Ballard's deal which is high risk for dead weight potential...even with a change of scenery?

Funky math bro.

Sergei Shirokov 03-31-2013 04:46 AM

I don't think this works with the salary thing.

Maybe there is a base around Schroeder+ for Vermette but I don't see PHX doing it and I'm not a fan of giving up Schroeder either.

palindrom 03-31-2013 05:56 AM

When its time to talk about Ballard, Canuck fans explain to me how good and deep is their defense and Ballard would be a top 4 defenseman on many teams in the league.

When they talk about their goalies, Canuck fans will describe how their defense is playing poorly this year, and their goalies are incredible.

So which one is it?

Is Vancouver defense very good and Ballard, a top 4 defenseman on many teams, is forced to accept a minor role? (And at the same time. Vancouver strong defense help their goalie look good.)

Or is Vancouver defense playing poorly, counting on the incredible play of their goalies to save them. Which mean Ballard is a 6th defenseman on a weak defensive team and should not be good enough to be a top 6 on most teams around the league? And at 4 200 000$, his value should be negative for a 7-8th defenseman.

biturbo19 03-31-2013 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842491)
When its time to talk about Ballard, Canuck fans explain to me how good and deep is their defense and Ballard would be a top 4 defenseman on many teams in the league.

When they talk about their goalies, Canuck fans will describe how their defense is playing poorly this year, and their goalies is incredible.

So which one is it?

Is Vancouver defense very good and Ballard, a top 4 defenseman on many teams, is forced to accept a minor role?

Or is Vancouver defense playing poorly, counting on the incredible play of their goalies to save them. Which mean Ballard is a 6th defenseman on a weak defensive team and should not be good enough to be a top 6 on most teams around the league?

Ballard is a poor fit for this team. Plain and simple. There's really nothing else to it.

He's a fringe top-4 guy. On a team where he's allowed to play his style of game and use his strengths to advantage...rushing the puck up ice, challenging forwards aggressively in his own zone, going to the big play...he's a Top-4 defenceman easily. That kind of freelancing doesn't fly in AV's chicken coup though. And Ballard has been in the doghouse for his style of play since the day he flew into town. Ballard is never going to be the guy to 'anchor' a pairing defensively. But with a safe stay-at-home partner...he can offer an awful lot more than he's been able to in Vancouver.

palindrom 03-31-2013 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biturbo19 (Post 62842525)
Ballard is a poor fit for this team. Plain and simple. There's really nothing else to it.

He's a fringe top-4 guy. On a team where he's allowed to play his style of game and use his strengths to advantage...rushing the puck up ice, challenging forwards aggressively in his own zone, going to the big play...he's a Top-4 defenceman easily. That kind of freelancing doesn't fly in AV's chicken coup though. And Ballard has been in the doghouse for his style of play since the day he flew into town. Ballard is never going to be the guy to 'anchor' a pairing defensively. But with a safe stay-at-home partner...he can offer an awful lot more than he's been able to in Vancouver.

Then do you agree that Vancouver defense is at least over average ?

biturbo19 03-31-2013 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842541)
Then do you agree that Vancouver defense is at least over average ?

Yes. The Canucks defence is above average.

Though they don't always play like it.

palindrom 03-31-2013 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biturbo19 (Post 62842595)
Yes. The Canucks defence is above average.

It just make me wonder why other Vancouver fans told me (in Schneider thread) their Defense was bad/playing poorly and it was their goalies making the difference.

So Schneider so far in his career, played behind an above average defense. A defense as good as Ballard, a fringe top-4 guy, is put in a 6th defenseman role.

biturbo19 03-31-2013 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842609)
It just make me wonder why other Vancouver fans told me their Defense was bad/playing poorly and it was their goalies making the difference.

Because as the second point there...they don't always play like it.

It's a very inconsistent group at times. And this year...the pairings have been in flux, the team as a whole hasn't played very well, and when the Canucks win...it's typically on the back of outstanding goaltending.

Guy like Bieksa who are crucial to the unit performing well...are more interested in trying out as figure skaters, than playing NHL level defence. And a large part of it is our pairings being muddled up with a lot of guys who can't play the Right Side.

If you're not getting the picture here...the Canucks blueline is extremely finnicky in terms of how and when it works. When things fall into place, it's a top tier unit. When things get jumbled and nobody knows what's going on or fits into the right spots...it can be really awful.

And the struggles Ballard has had in Vancouver are largely a product of this. He just doesn't work here with the system, the staff, and the partners available. Ballard needs a steady defensive presence beside him...and the only RH side guy we have in that mold is...Tanev. Where no surprise...he's looked very comfortable and at his best.

palindrom 03-31-2013 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biturbo19 (Post 62842679)
Because as the second point there...they don't always play like it.

It's a very inconsistent group at times. And this year...the pairings have been in flux, the team as a whole hasn't played very well, and when the Canucks win...it's typically on the back of outstanding goaltending.

Guy like Bieksa who are crucial to the unit performing well...are more interested in trying out as figure skaters, than playing NHL level defence. And a large part of it is our pairings being muddled up with a lot of guys who can't play the Right Side.

If you're not getting the picture here...the Canucks blueline is extremely finnicky in terms of how and when it works. When things fall into place, it's a top tier unit. When things get jumbled and nobody knows what's going on or fits into the right spots...it can be really awful.

And the struggles Ballard has had in Vancouver are largely a product of this. He just doesn't work here with the system, the staff, and the partners available. Ballard needs a steady defensive presence beside him...and the only RH side guy we have in that mold is...Tanev. Where no surprise...he's looked very comfortable and at his best.

Well, i just want to thank you for your interesting replies.

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS 03-31-2013 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842491)
When its time to talk about Ballard, Canuck fans explain to me how good and deep is their defense and Ballard would be a top 4 defenseman on many teams in the league.

When they talk about their goalies, Canuck fans will describe how their defense is playing poorly this year, and their goalies are incredible.

So which one is it?

Is Vancouver defense very good and Ballard, a top 4 defenseman on many teams, is forced to accept a minor role? (And at the same time. Vancouver strong defense help their goalie look good.)

Or is Vancouver defense playing poorly, counting on the incredible play of their goalies to save them. Which mean Ballard is a 6th defenseman on a weak defensive team and should not be good enough to be a top 6 on most teams around the league? And at 4 200 000$, his value should be negative for a 7-8th defenseman.

Yep we heard how great the D was at the beginning of the season. Then goalie excuses, how Schneider needs time to get in a groove. KEEp Luongo and trade Corey. Now the defense is the problem. So after Taylor Hall's 8 minute hat trick its whos fault again?

I dont get the sales pitch at all.
Ballards, Booth and Luongo have bad contracts that the Canucks are stuck with.
These deals will hurt the team.
No team is doing them a favor.
The OP proposal makes zero sense for Yotes.
Ballard is a negative value player like Komi and Gomez.

DesertDawg 03-31-2013 08:50 AM

Why would the Coyotes trade 1 of only 2 centers signed for next season and a top prospect who's in the teams future plan? And how is taking on ~$800,000 in real money be shedded? Need proposals for rentals not for established players with signed contracts for next season!

Nuck This 03-31-2013 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842609)
It just make me wonder why other Vancouver fans told me (in Schneider thread) their Defense was bad/playing poorly and it was their goalies making the difference.

So Schneider so far in his career, played behind an above average defense. A defense as good as Ballard, a fringe top-4 guy, is put in a 6th defenseman role.

You again? Every year.... Did Schendier sleep with your gf or something? Man, you need to let it go. He's an elite goalie. Let it go.

Nuck This 03-31-2013 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 62842541)
Then do you agree that Vancouver defense is at least over average ?

It's hard to explain. You need to watch it constantly to see it. Some games they're very good. Others, atrocious. Too many inconsistent players. Edler and Bieksa are super inconstant and have give away's galore. Are D jump in the rush a lot as well which creates oddman rushes going the other way. Our goalies have to be stellar. Stick Schneider on Boston, Phoenix or St Louis and he'd be coming close to breaking save % records.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.