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-   -   Yes am going there: Is Gauthier a bit vindicated? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1398429)

madhi19 04-07-2013 06:18 PM

Yes am going there: Is Gauthier a bit vindicated?
 
Does anybody else think maybe, just maybe Gauthier did a not so bad job building the current Habs. I know, I know last place last year but guess what aside from Prust, Ryder and Therrien what else did Bergevins changed and added? He bought out Gomez and likely Kaberle but that was pretty much Geoff Molson keeping his "No BS allowed anymore!" promess to the fans.

Galchenyuk don't really count you had to be really stupid to pass on this guy. Gallagher a fifth round pick is a product of the old regime. Hell Bourque even bounced back making the Cammalleri trade a serious steal. Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and Calgary 2013 second round draft pick came our way in that trade.
Sure Gauthier is a serious psycho who got no people skill but on the ice right now is pretty much his team.

True Tick and Tin 04-07-2013 06:22 PM

I think Gauthier didn't do nearly as bad a job as some people make it sound. Still like Bergevin 1000% better.

Some posters just need someone to hate on. :dunno:

BrimStone64 04-07-2013 06:25 PM

He did some things right but eventually he would have run team into the ground. Kind of a circus here in the last of it. With the way he handled things and some of his choices for head coach.

Gauthier may have been a decent pro scout...Cole was a good choice, Bourque, Eller trade was good. But he had no business being a GM

MXD 04-07-2013 06:28 PM

The top of the pyramid must give the example.

This is why Gauthier should never have been a GM, anywhere.

Jack Bourdain 04-07-2013 06:28 PM

Player moves have been great.

But when you hear the kind of tight grip he had on the organization and how he wouldn't let anyone speak or would force his ideals on the team and the staff, that's where it's unhealthy amount of power tripping.

Not vindicated at all. Players made fun of him.

WhiskeySeven 04-07-2013 06:28 PM

No way, he's a vegan and Spacek said things about him, off the record of course, to Dave Stubbs over dinner and a few pints at Burgundy Lion on a few occasions so clearly, the man was the worst thing to happen to the Habs since the Flames won the cup at the Forum.

Nedved 04-07-2013 06:29 PM

biggest change----coach, and MB is a much better personality.

I just don't like, from what I read, heard, that gauthier was part of the gomez deal. that said, we don't get galchenyuk, thus I can live with it.

he did a good job, outside the coaching. again though, would we have the prospects we have if martin wasn't here? and cunneyworth?

don't know...so, we had a BAD BAD year with him, but looking forward, he made the right moves to make this franchise better long-term and was changing our style wingers, etc...

25get 04-07-2013 06:29 PM

He took the decision to tank when he fired JM.
This is why he hired RC instead of a coach with experience...

We will never know the real story. Maybe this was all planned with Molson.

MooseOllini 04-07-2013 06:29 PM

The best thing the Gauthier/Gainey era did is draft players. The good thing is we still have the key element from that era.
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4...scanadiens.jpg

HatTricK09 04-07-2013 06:29 PM

Gauthier did his own good and bad.
In the end, I think what killed Gauthier is because of how he managed the Habs, his "reign of terror" I like to call it.
The way he treated the media, how unapproachable he was to the players, and how he never really asked his staff when it was time to make decisions, as a whole, gave a negative attitude and it affected the team's performance.
This year with a whole new change of scenery in the upper management with a "Winner Attitude" and the players actually want to play to win.
And of course, with the return of players like Markov, Gionta, the development of Diaz (earlier this season), Subban.
Of course, can't forget about better coaching too.

madhi19 04-07-2013 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Style Points (Post 63515279)
I think Gauthier didn't do nearly as bad a job as some people make it sound. Still like Bergevin 1000% better.

Some posters just need someone to hate on. :dunno:

Don't get me wrong the style of management is night and days. And I was glad to be rid of the guy. Even better I think we upgraded with Bergevins. But we got to admit Gauthier had the worse luck for his last two season. Markov and Pacioretty get hurt... Markov does not heal properly... Gorges get hurt, Gomez disappear...

pine* 04-07-2013 06:33 PM

His eye for talent is good. He's good as a scout. But in a people-managing capacity? Fogettaboutit.

schumway2 04-07-2013 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HatTricK09 (Post 63515965)
Gauthier did his own good and bad.
In the end, I think what killed Gauthier is because of how he managed the Habs, his "reign of terror" I like to call it.
The way he treated the media, how unapproachable he was to the players, and how he never really asked his staff when it was time to make decisions, as a whole, gave a negative attitude and it affected the team's performance.
This year with a whole new change of scenery in the upper management with a "Winner Attitude" and the players actually want to play to win.
And of course, with the return of players like Markov, Gionta, the development of Diaz (earlier this season), Subban.
Of course, can't forget about better coaching too.

He was a megalomaniac basically. Not a good quality for a GM.

Habaneros 04-07-2013 06:34 PM

No ,never...

Anyone including you, could run a team into last place......

McDounagh still on Rangers.

Would have been so great to see him and JM on the habs 24ch show..lmao..just imagine that..anyways his name will always be in habs record books,for a bad reason.


If Gauthier and Martin was still here,both Gally's would be in Hamiltion now,and PK Subban likley traded,and Darche resigned for power play.........it was total disfunction.

Andros777 04-07-2013 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 63515061)
Does anybody else think maybe, just maybe Gauthier did a not so bad job building the current Habs. I know, I know last place last year but guess what aside from Prust, Ryder and Therrien what else did Bergevins changed and added? He bought out Gomez and likely Kaberle but that was pretty much Geoff Molson keeping his "No BS allowed anymore!" promess to the fans.

Galchenyuk don't really count you had to be really stupid to pass on this guy. Gallagher a fifth round pick is a product of the old regime. Hell Bourque even bounced back making the Cammalleri trade a serious steal. Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and Calgary 2013 second round draft pick came our way in that trade.
Sure Gauthier is a serious psycho who got no people skill but on the ice right now is pretty much his team.

If Bergevin can't take credit for Galchenyuk then I can't see how "the old regime" can take credit for Gallagher. The only one that can take credit for great drafting is Timmins and his staff, and so since we've removed "players drafted successfully during <Blank>'s tenure as GM here" as a criterion of the success of the GM, the only good thing on the team that Gauthier can take credit for is Rene Bourque and the twelve good games he played for us. And don't look now but Cammalleri is having a better season than Bourque. Maybe if Gauthier wasn't such a ******-canoe he'd be scoring those points for us. Hell I'd reverse that trade in a second.

The man presided over one of the most miserable seasons in the history of the franchise.

WhiskeySeven 04-07-2013 06:43 PM

honest answer: I defended the man's moves because nearly all of them made sense. His mandate was to be a provider for his coach, it just happened to be that his coach was an archaic dinosaur with no concept of development and his predecessor was an outright imbecile who left him saddled with awful contracts and stunted players. He traded one of my favourite players (Lapierre, yeah yeah he's a troll but he's my troll) and I didn't hate him for it - the coach wasn't going to play him and he had no value. I blame a lot of those moves on Jacques and only Jacques, like losing O'Byrne, SKost and Latendresse and yes, even Pouliot. Jacques was a really highly paid, highly tenured coach who used to even be a GM, he wasn't going to NOT get things going his way until it was painfully clear that the season was a wash and Gainey's frankenstein experiment was an abject failure so he tanked and did it farily: if it works (Kaberle trade, Bourque trade, Cunneyworth) that's great, we'll gear up for next season... if it doesn't work, that's great too we can start fresh next season. He's the reason we got Galchenyuk and a bunch of our good prospects (trading up to get Tinordi for instance) and all the delicious picks we have this year. All in all he was a good manager if it weren't for the speculation I cannot judge objectively... such as:

Bad leadership, bad communication, bad people skills, etc. Apparently he was awful at it and that's what did him in - I have nothing to say about it because there's been only whisper and Dave Stubbs' farts alluding to it but I believe it though, I just think that he was the scapegoat when it was Jacques and Cunneyworths' incompetance and Gainey's awful contracts more than anything. If we base it on hockey moves he's heads and shoulders above most. I'd much rather Gauthier calling the shots than Nieuwendyk or Tambellini or like half the GMs in this league.

Gauthier also had to make one of the biggest moves in recent history, trading playoff hero Halak for an unknown return and he got ZERO credit for it which disappoints me - both the trade and the return were very risky and he made the right move on both accounts. Halak can't keep a starting job and can't keep healthy, he plays well for four to five games and then it's back to square one. You can't build a team with Halak as your undisputed no.1.

Yes he should get credit but his presence was a detriment. Gainey can screw off to hell though.

crystal ball 04-07-2013 06:50 PM

Timmins and staff get sole responsibility for the draft picks.

The main thing Bergevin has over Gauthier, and, I think, the most important thing, is the culture he's brought to the organization. Gauthier wasn't a total idiot all the time (excepting his panic moves and the Gomez trade, which Gainey has admitted was during a time when Gainey had given Gauthier control for personal reasons), but he was a hateful boss. He made players pay for landmark pucks. He refused to let guys he traded keep their game-worn sweaters. He wouldn't let anybody talk about anything. So, while he might have had a decent eye for hockey talent, he was, quite likely, suffering from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder. (I say this as a professional.) Also, the guy never played the game seriously. And how many times have we heard players talk about the absolute lack of communication from management?

Now, the Habs have Bergevin who knows the game, knows the dressing room culture, knows everyone who matters in the league. He says no excuses and they listen. He's a smart, connected guy who knows how to speak with people and the players are lapping it up. Gauthier might have made a couple of decent moves, but he made a lot more crazy ones.

Hullois 04-07-2013 06:50 PM

The hockey decisions were not that bad (certainly not great, he was involved in the Gomez trade), but the style of management was inexcusable, even more so given that we are in MTL. Everytime he was interviewed we could feel the disdain, for the medias and for the fans.

Also, the poster that said that with Martin/Gauthier, both Gallys would be in the minors (or Hamilton for Bgally) is absolutely right. Beaulieu and Tinordi would have never seen a minute of NHL hockey the whole season either. And Gauthier didn't believe we needed bigger bodys, so probably no Prust.

All that said, the hate for Gauthier really comes from how he always looked like he thought that he was better than everybody. Not a likable person at all. There is a reason why he was nicknamed "the ghost". One of my coworker was working for the Senators back when he was there and the hatred from his former staff is just as strong...

HabsProspectsExpert 04-07-2013 06:53 PM

I hope ur kidding. Have you already forgotten last season...? we played with only one offensive line all season long. Our depth was totally horrible. Our third and forth lines were mainly compose of player like: Staubitz, Leblanc, Darche, Nokelainen, Blunden, Geoffrion, Engvist and White. And it was horrible to see Plekanec playing with no quality winger all season long.
And on defense... Kaberle for Spacek + the late signing of Campoli.
+ Randy cunneyworth.

The worst team I have ever watch as a Habs fan. Gauthier didn't do a great job at all. Too many reactionary moves and didn't pay attention to the small details.

If our team look good now, all the cedit goes to Timmins, not Gauthier... lol.

Brainiac 04-07-2013 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pine (Post 63516265)
His eye for talent is good. He's good as a scout. But in a people-managing capacity? Fogettaboutit.

My thoughts, exactly.

What we see today is, mostly, the team Gauthier built. But managed by somebody else, which makes all the difference.

madhi19 04-07-2013 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystal ball (Post 63517747)
Gomez trade, which Gainey has admitted was during a time when Gainey had given Gauthier control for personal reasons.

That revisionist history and you know it. I specualted before that Gainey might have left the job when he did because he saw the crap coming and was more than happy to let Gauthier take the fall for that ridiculous trade.

WakeUpNHL 04-07-2013 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 63515061)
Does anybody else think maybe, just maybe Gauthier did a not so bad job building the current Habs. I know, I know last place last year but guess what aside from Prust, Ryder and Therrien what else did Bergevins changed and added? He bought out Gomez and likely Kaberle but that was pretty much Geoff Molson keeping his "No BS allowed anymore!" promess to the fans.

Galchenyuk don't really count you had to be really stupid to pass on this guy. Gallagher a fifth round pick is a product of the old regime. Hell Bourque even bounced back making the Cammalleri trade a serious steal. Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and Calgary 2013 second round draft pick came our way in that trade.
Sure Gauthier is a serious psycho who got no people skill but on the ice right now is pretty much his team.

Gauthier did many good moves that are now benefiting the Habs big time now. His one big mistake last year was over estimating his young dman corps and not signing a dman vet like Hamrlik to insure himself against Markov's injury situation. The dman situation deteriorated and he made another mistake with his Kaberle trade. Doesn't take much to derail the GM train sometimes!

idk 04-07-2013 07:04 PM

God's honest truth? Gauthier was not that bad a GM when it came to asset management. His major acquisitions were what - Bourque, Eller, Wisniewski and Kaberle? Oh - and he traded up for Tinordi. A lot of people lag him for Kaberle but he was getting an offensive defenseman (which we needed with Markov's injury) in exchange for a guy who was on and off the IR and is now retired. A few questionable minor trades -D'Agostini and Sergei Kostitsyn come to mind - but the D'Agostini was about getting something for an asset that was likely going to wind up on waivers, while the Kostitsyn trade was more about personnel issues than asset management (and we'll touch on that later).

So as far as the team he built goes - it's sound. And we really shouldn't be surprised by this. The man was a scout before he was a GM. You don't stick around in that role unless you have a knack for separating the wheat from the chaff.

Gauthier's problem was personnel management. Dumping Kostitsyn for nothing because he and Martin don't get along. Not acquiring a blueliner in the offseason to insure against an extended absence for Markov. Trading Mike Cammaleri in the middle of a game. Firing Pearn a few hours before a game. Keeping Martin around as long as he was after he had clearly lost the room. Throwing Cunneyworth under the bus. Given the significant injuries we were carrying I doubt we would have made the playoffs last season. But we wound up as low as we did because Gauthier allowed the team to turn into a circus. For that he deserved to be canned.

Des Louise 04-07-2013 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven (Post 63517111)
honest answer: I defended the man's moves because nearly all of them made sense. His mandate was to be a provider for his coach, it just happened to be that his coach was an archaic dinosaur with no concept of development and his predecessor was an outright imbecile who left him saddled with awful contracts and stunted players. He traded one of my favourite players (Lapierre, yeah yeah he's a troll but he's my troll) and I didn't hate him for it - the coach wasn't going to play him and he had no value. I blame a lot of those moves on Jacques and only Jacques, like losing O'Byrne, SKost and Latendresse and yes, even Pouliot. Jacques was a really highly paid, highly tenured coach who used to even be a GM, he wasn't going to NOT get things going his way until it was painfully clear that the season was a wash and Gainey's frankenstein experiment was an abject failure so he tanked and did it farily: if it works (Kaberle trade, Bourque trade, Cunneyworth) that's great, we'll gear up for next season... if it doesn't work, that's great too we can start fresh next season. He's the reason we got Galchenyuk and a bunch of our good prospects (trading up to get Tinordi for instance) and all the delicious picks we have this year. All in all he was a good manager if it weren't for the speculation I cannot judge objectively... such as:

Bad leadership, bad communication, bad people skills, etc. Apparently he was awful at it and that's what did him in - I have nothing to say about it because there's been only whisper and Dave Stubbs' farts alluding to it but I believe it though, I just think that he was the scapegoat when it was Jacques and Cunneyworths' incompetance and Gainey's awful contracts more than anything. If we base it on hockey moves he's heads and shoulders above most. I'd much rather Gauthier calling the shots than Nieuwendyk or Tambellini or like half the GMs in this league.

Gauthier also had to make one of the biggest moves in recent history, trading playoff hero Halak for an unknown return and he got ZERO credit for it which disappoints me - both the trade and the return were very risky and he made the right move on both accounts. Halak can't keep a starting job and can't keep healthy, he plays well for four to five games and then it's back to square one. You can't build a team with Halak as your undisputed no.1.

Yes he should get credit but his presence was a detriment. Gainey can screw off to hell though.

That's pretty much my exact take on it. Thank you for saving me the trouble.

Whitesnake 04-07-2013 07:06 PM

Vindicated for what? This guy made a laughing stock out of the Montreal Canadiens. Yes, he did a few good moves...Guess what...so did Mike Milbury. Doesn't make Milbury a genius. Doesn't make Gauthier to be "vindicated".....Having said that, a GM value is often if not always knows way after they leave. So his "evaluation" cannot be done now. If we lose in the 1st round this year, he is going to be called awful for not building a playoff team..yet, if we win next year, he'll be called a genius? The end-result was that he had to go. Period. For his associating with a sub-par Gainey administration. And for his stupid way of making business while being on top of the Montreal Canadiens. The rest....well we'll let the big boys take care of that and actually took it where it is and make it better. 'Cause that's the whole plan.


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