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Canadiens1958 04-12-2013 12:43 PM

1955 C.A.H.A. Budget Issues
 
Interesting article from 1955 about budget issues in the C.A.H.A.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...4221%2C1520519

Rather meagre.

Killion 04-12-2013 01:00 PM

Interesting. So way back then they were dealing with "appearance fee's" but rather than what transpired through the 70'-00's whereby the money strapped ex-Iron-Curtain teams were requiring perks & bonuses (equipment, accommodations etc) the Canadians (Penticton V's) were receiving them (Germans) to travel overseas.

Canadiens1958 04-12-2013 01:29 PM

Learned
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 63821071)
Interesting. So way back then they were dealing with "appearance fee's" but rather than what transpired through the 70'-00's whereby the money strapped ex-Iron-Curtain teams were requiring perks & bonuses (equipment, accommodations etc) the Canadians (Penticton V's) were receiving them (Germans) to travel overseas.

Quick learners:D.

What is amazing is the ability of the sport to survive in spite of mismanagement at all levels thru the ages.

Killion 04-12-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63822587)
Quick learners... :D.

Ya thats something else isnt it? I mean, here you had Germany bombed practically into smithereens, West Germany quickly becoming the fastest growing economy in Europe including the UK & France and indeed into an economic juggernaut pretty much by the 60's, yet in the late 50's finding the money to sponsor a visiting Canadian team, and we won the war? Thats just bizarre.... it wasnt hard to empathise & understand that throughout the 70's & 80's, through the Summit Series, the Canada Cups, the visiting Soviet & Czech teams from Junior through their own league teams requiring cash & equipment etc, the price of doing business, putting on the show, but gosh, had no idea Canada itself appears to have not only piloted but were the beneficiaries of such back in the 50's. I guess perhaps with the huge influx of Nato dollars post WW2 into Germany there simply must have been huge slush funds available to sporting & cultural event programming that was hard to spend, bringing over what were essentially amateurs like the V's entirely kosher. But still.

Canadiens1958 04-12-2013 05:16 PM

Canadian Army Bases
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 63829087)
Ya thats something else isnt it? I mean, here you had Germany bombed practically into smithereens, West Germany quickly becoming the fastest growing economy in Europe including the UK & France and indeed into an economic juggernaut pretty much by the 60's, yet in the late 50's finding the money to sponsor a visiting Canadian team, and we won the war? Thats just bizarre.... it wasnt hard to empathise & understand that throughout the 70's & 80's, through the Summit Series, the Canada Cups, the visiting Soviet & Czech teams from Junior through their own league teams requiring cash & equipment etc, the price of doing business, putting on the show, but gosh, had no idea Canada itself appears to have not only piloted but were the beneficiaries of such back in the 50's. I guess perhaps with the huge influx of Nato dollars post WW2 into Germany there simply must have been huge slush funds available to sporting & cultural event programming that was hard to spend, bringing over what were essentially amateurs like the V's entirely kosher. But still.

Post WWII Canada had upwards of 8 armed forces bases in Germany and Europe, so there was a demand at this level plus going back to the twenties there was a history of barnstorming thru Europe on the way to and back from the WCs/Olympics.

Tickets were sold so the visiting teams driving the event deserved a share.

Killion 04-12-2013 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63831813)
...going back to the twenties there was a history of barnstorming thru Europe on the way to and back from the WCs/Olympics.

Sure, but playing for a portion of the gate compared to a guaranteed appearance fee... well, quite a bit different C58 as you know. Bruce Norris there with his Wingnut London Lions idea in the early 70's, he reportedly sunk & lost close to $300,000 over about 70 games Barnstorming all over Europe. Rather doubt he was receiving either a portion of the gate let alone an appearance fee, per diems nor anything else for that matter... in fact, some pretty hilarious stories of those adventures, team members being maced at the Czech border, playing in London at Wembley arena, the ice surface built on top of a swimming pool, fine dining in the upper balcony (the puck taking out someones plate of Lamb Shanks here, a bottle of Perrier Jouet there etc) but tickets in the lower bowls dirt cheap, on & on & on ...

mbhhofr 04-12-2013 08:31 PM

When I was a Linesman for the 1959 Memorial Cup, the series was played in Winnipeg except for the fifth and what turned out to be the final game, that was played in Brandon, which is 130 miles from Winnipeg. After the game, we went into the office to get paid and the CAHA rep was going to pay us $25.00 which is what we got paid for each game in Winnipeg. Well, I pointed out that the CAHA Rule Book stated that if you traveled more than 75 miles from your home, the linesman's pay was to be $75.00. He reluctantly gave it to us.

When we left the office, my partner asked if I saw the open bottle of liquor on the desk and complained that they didn't offer us a drink.

During the final game of the 1964 Allan Cup played in Winnipeg, the referee, who was from Montreal, refused to come out of the dressing room for the third period until he was paid for his first class air ticket. They only wanted to pay him for coach, but the rule book said he was to get paid for first class.

Killion 04-12-2013 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhhofr (Post 63842145)
When I was a Linesman for the 1959 Memorial Cup....

Interesting... and you know, the fact that this CAHA rep with whom you were dealing in Brandon "just happened to have" the extra $50 on him in compliance with the rules suggests to me that he like a lot of them back in the day was on the take. Had you not spoken out about it, between yourself and another Linesman thats $100 he wouldve probably just kept for himself, while being deliberately rude in failing to at least offer you guys a drink. Had he done so, he mightve warmed up to you & your colleague, then felt guilty about ripping you off. In displaying an open bottle but not offering a drink, arrogance, as in I dont drink with the hired help, dont question my authority. Stage managed.... Either that or just a total idiot... and as for the Ref from Montreal, he probably decided on so adamant a position as he'd been stiffed one too many times by the CAHA in the past, as thats a fairly hardcore thing to be pulling, refusing to come out & officiate like that. Similar incidents having happened in the past, he was fed up, wasnt gonna take it anymore....

I cant for the life of me remember who the player was, but he was from Timmins or somewhere, back in the late 40's early 50's, large family, dirt poor. A well known ex-player & then Scout came calling to sign this kid to a tryout with an NHL Club, offering him a "signing bonus" of something like $500. Puts the cash money right down on the kitchen table. More money at one time than this family of like 8 had ever seen. They were all very close, but sure, the kid signed & accepted the $$$, handing all of it but like $10 to his Mother. Packs & goes & gets into the car with this Scout, drives down to Toronto or wherever, the guy on the way telling him "y'know kid?, you came cheap, I was prepared to offer up to $2500 in bonus money".... can you imagine? I think I wouldve slugged the guy, car going 60, 80mph or not. Yet thats just the way it was, the culture of hockey to a large degree (no, not everywhere but it was prevalent) from the clubs at the Junior levels including the leagues & right on up to pro's.

mbhhofr 04-12-2013 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 63847099)
while being deliberately rude in failing to at least offer you guys a drink. Had he done so, he mightve warmed up to you & your colleague, then felt guilty about ripping you off. In displaying an open bottle but not offering a drink, arrogance, as in I dont drink with the hired help, dont question my authority. Stage managed.

I was only nineteen years old and too young to legally drink, but my partner and the referee were pi$$ed.

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 09:43 AM

Canadian Hockey in Germany
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 63829087)
Ya thats something else isnt it? I mean, here you had Germany bombed practically into smithereens, West Germany quickly becoming the fastest growing economy in Europe including the UK & France and indeed into an economic juggernaut pretty much by the 60's, yet in the late 50's finding the money to sponsor a visiting Canadian team, and we won the war? Thats just bizarre.... it wasnt hard to empathise & understand that throughout the 70's & 80's, through the Summit Series, the Canada Cups, the visiting Soviet & Czech teams from Junior through their own league teams requiring cash & equipment etc, the price of doing business, putting on the show, but gosh, had no idea Canada itself appears to have not only piloted but were the beneficiaries of such back in the 50's. I guess perhaps with the huge influx of Nato dollars post WW2 into Germany there simply must have been huge slush funds available to sporting & cultural event programming that was hard to spend, bringing over what were essentially amateurs like the V's entirely kosher. But still.

An interesting little blurb(beside the roads ad) from 1956 about Canadian Forces Hockey in Germany and the start of German hockey:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6422%2C1929297

Theokritos 04-13-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63859533)
An interesting little blurb(beside the roads ad) from 1956 about Canadian Forces Hockey in Germany and the start of German hockey:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6422%2C1929297

The start of German hockey was actually as early as 1909. After WW2, regular league play started in 1948 with the Oberliga (48-49 season) and I don't know how this league is supposed to be considered anything but civilian. Maybe the newspaper was supposed to say the opposite of what was printed: "only non-civilian league in Germany."

EDIT: Or maybe it meant "only Canadian civilian league in Germany."

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 10:46 AM

Grassroots
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Theokritos (Post 63860583)
The start of German hockey was actually as early as 1909. After WW2, regular league play started in 1948 with the Oberliga (48-49 season) and I don't know how this league is supposed to be considered anything but civilian. Maybe the newspaper was supposed to say the opposite of what was printed: "only non-civilian league in Germany."

EDIT: Or maybe it meant "only Canadian civilian league in Germany."

Took start to mean as grassroots, introduction or out reach level as opposed to the sports clubs in the Oberliga that were not open to all.

Theokritos 04-13-2013 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63861123)
Took start to mean as grassroots, introduction or out reach level as opposed to the sports clubs in the Oberliga that were not open to all.

That's the thing with sports clubs in Europe: they're open to all. A club that plays in the top tier also has a reserve team playing in a lower tier and several junior teams for different age groups. All under the umbrella of one club.

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 11:26 AM

Nhl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Theokritos (Post 63861801)
That's the thing with sports clubs in Europe: they're open to all. A club that plays in the top tier also has a reserve team playing in a lower tier and several junior teams for different age groups. All under the umbrella of one club.

Similar to the 1950s NHL. The Canadiens in the NHL had numerous minor pro, semi pro, junior teams but they were not open to all - the typical civilian could not walk in and play nor would players accept invitations to play on civilian teams or in leagues outside of their contractual assignment.

The Canadian forces base offered weekly access to the German civilians and the soldiers were allowed to reciprocate by participating in German civilian activities which included hockey.

Theokritos 04-13-2013 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63862461)
Similar to the 1950s NHL. The Canadiens in the NHL had numerous minor pro, semi pro, junior teams but they were not open to all - the typical civilian could not walk in and play nor would players accept invitations to play on civilian teams or in leagues outside of their contractual assignment.

Did the Canadiens have junior teams down to the age level of under 9? European clubs have that, often including hundreds of kids all in all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63862461)
The Canadian forces base offered weekly access to the German civilians and the soldiers were allowed to reciprocate by participating in German civilian activities which included hockey.

Yes, I don't claim it did nothing for German hockey. It just wasn't its start. ;)

Killion 04-13-2013 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theokritos (Post 63864193)
Did the Canadiens have junior teams down to the age level of under 9?
European clubs have that, often including hundreds of kids all in all.

Good heavens no Theo, Im sure your aware of that, rhetorical question. Interesting point to raise, as I and many many more have long felt the NHL does indeed "owe it" to the sport & communities to have given back far more than they ever have, be it during the old Sponsorship System or post 63 Universal Draft. Sponsoring amateur teams & leagues throughout North America, particularly so in the newer markets. Camps, clinics, financial support in building infrastructure, indoor rinks, outdoor ball hockey and or synthetic ice surfaces & so on & so forth. Back in the day some of the clubs did indeed sponsor amateur clubs & sometimes entire leagues, but there was nothing benevolent about it per se', they simply wanted to corral specific players, get the talents signature on a C Form before a Scout from somewhere else discovered the next Wunderkind playing out of some Podunk town wherever.

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 01:27 PM

Toronto Marlies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 63865893)
Good heavens no Theo, Im sure your aware of that, rhetorical question. Interesting point to raise, as I and many many more have long felt the NHL does indeed "owe it" to the sport & communities to have given back far more than they ever have, be it during the old Sponsorship System or post 63 Universal Draft. Sponsoring amateur teams & leagues throughout North America, particularly so in the newer markets. Camps, clinics, financial support in building infrastructure, indoor rinks, outdoor ball hockey and or synthetic ice surfaces & so on & so forth. Back in the day some of the clubs did indeed sponsor amateur clubs & sometimes entire leagues, but there was nothing benevolent about it per se', they simply wanted to corral specific players, get the talents signature on a C Form before a Scout from somewhere else discovered the next Wunderkind playing out of some Podunk town wherever.

Toronto Marlies and the Toronto Maple Leafs.Elite Bantam 1931-32, Pee Wee 1948-49.

http://www.torontomarlboros.com/inde...ub-its-history

Pre Pee Wee elite be it Atom, Mosquito, Mite, Novice is a rather recent phenomena, post sponsorship in most jurisdictions. Talented 8 - 10 year olds could be moved up to Pee Wee under various "exceptional" rules.

By the sixties you could snake thru the Quebec hockey pyramid to and from the Canadiens.

Killion 04-13-2013 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63866901)
Toronto Marlies and the Toronto Maple Leafs.Elite Bantam 1931-32, Pee Wee 1948-49... By the sixties you could snake thru the Quebec hockey pyramid to and from the Canadiens.

Ya, there were also some others in the THL, Dorset Park, Goulding Park & others with loose affiliations with Major Jr., NHL and even some of the independent AHL franchises but none with the exception of the Marlies with terribly deep ties. The Marlboroughs didnt have a House League nor 'B' level teams at the THL levels, instead picking off the cream of whatever crop generally at about Atom, into Pee Wee & Bantam. Mini Jr / NHL type model really, winning everything, not the kind of development fostered with depth as suggested by Theo in Europe by parent clubs I shouldnt imagine. The Marlboroughs had, as youve noted in Montreal & PQ ties to almost every organization in one way or another though, so yes, a circuitous route, an octopus's garden pretty much.

mbhhofr 04-13-2013 04:56 PM

When I played in the Little NHL League, in Winnipeg, back in 1952-53, I played on the Red Wings. I was thirteen. Detroit paid for our sweaters, so they were our sponsors and I had to sign a C Form. Detroit owned me until they gave me my release, which they did at the end of the season.

I had a good friend who played goal for a Bantam team that was sponsored by Montreal. He was fifteen and didn't want to play any more hockey. His coach told him that he would never play another game for any other team in the future. He had signed a C Form. Montreal owned him and he never got his release.

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 05:17 PM

Very Interesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhhofr (Post 63877887)
When I played in the Little NHL League, in Winnipeg, back in 1952-53, I played on the Red Wings. I was thirteen. Detroit paid for our sweaters, so they were our sponsors and I had to sign a C Form. Detroit owned me until they gave me my release, which they did at the end of the season.

I had a good friend who played goal for a Bantam team that was sponsored by Montreal. He was fifteen and didn't want to play any more hockey. His coach told him that he would never play another game for any other team in the future. He had signed a C Form. Montreal owned him and he never got his release.

Very interesting.

Park, community center, church/school league?

What were the ages for each category in Manitoba?

Montreal was all over the place with three governing bodies, age variances in each category, different residence criteria. Fifties youth hockey started at the Pee Wee level, 10-12 year olds, although "exceptional" status for younger kids were common.

mbhhofr 04-13-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63878867)
Very interesting.

Park, community center, church/school league?

What were the ages for each category in Manitoba?

Montreal was all over the place with three governing bodies, age variances in each category, different residence criteria. Fifties youth hockey started at the Pee Wee level, 10-12 year olds, although "exceptional" status for younger kids were common.

There was a Playground League (park) aged up to 13. The league that I played in, Little NHL, was run by Vince Leah a newspaper reporter and columnist for the Winnipeg Tribune ages 11 to 13.

Bantam B-14 years old. Bantam A-15 years old. Midget-16 years old. Juvenile-17years old. All run by the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Association and played at Community Clubs. Those Community Club teams were generally sponsored by an NHL team. Jr. was the next level.

Canadiens1958 04-13-2013 06:27 PM

Great Stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhhofr (Post 63880197)
There was a Playground League (park) aged up to 13. The league that I played in, Little NHL, was run by Vince Leah a newspaper reporter and columnist for the Winnipeg Tribune ages 11 to 13.

Bantam B-14 years old. Bantam A-15 years old. Midget-16 years old. Juvenile-17years old. All run by the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Association and played at Community Clubs. Those Community Club teams were generally sponsored by an NHL team. Jr. was the next level.

Combination of age groupings and the minor/major concept. All under one provincial governing body answering directly to the CAHA?

City of Montreal/Island of Montreal was rather interesting for hockey and youth sports. Major youth sports were hockey, baseball, basketball, football, boxing. All sports featured scaled versions until or thru the Pee Wee level which was flexible 10-12 or 11-13 following the calendar, school or sport specific year. Scaled meant that the playing field or venue was reduced or scaled if the sport was offered by the organization. Example some of the French Catholic schools with hockey had scaled rinks, roughly half sized, half boards(kids with stopping issues taking headers into snow banks instead of boards), scaled nets and pucks, no offsides,no icing, etc. LL baseball, Biddy basketball, 8 man football, juvenile boxing.

Hockey, beyond Pee Wee there was no minor/major distinction. Basically Bantam was 13-15 or 14-15, some "exceptionals". No midget by name but a very flexible Juvenile,Junior. Junior accepted 14 or 15 year old exceptionals but was 16-20.Juvenile was 16-18 in some areas, 16-20 in others.

Killion 04-13-2013 07:51 PM

Toronto, with the THL (MTHL nee GTHL) we had;

Tyke
Minor Atom
Atom
Pee Wee
Minor Bantam
Bantam
Minor Midget
Midget
Juvenile

Ranking was initially A & B, then AA, A & B, later of course AAA, AA & A. Atom, Pee Wee & Bantam had teams in all 3 Divisions, Minor Atom, Minor Bantam & Minor Midget variously either AAA or AA but generally just the one Division; Midget AAA & AA; Juvenile classified as AA. There were also municipal leagues, the Scarborough Hockey League, North York Hockey League & Etobicoke Hockey League. These leagues were founded on House Leagues with app A (years ago termed B level) calibre levels of play. Catholic Church League, Private School League (UTS, UCC, Neil McNeil etc). Many of the THL/MTHL/GTHL clubs also had teams in the NYHL etc, along with House League from Tyke through Midget... Teams like Don Mills with the Flyers & North Stars at one time, Ted Reeve with the Penguins, Leaside with the Kings, Toronto Red Wings, Dorset Park Bruins, most of them having loose relationships of one kind or another with NHL clubs, if even tenuous whereby perhaps executives or Coaches, Scouts etc were themselves at one time under C Form's with a Chicago or whomever. But it wasnt really direct. Sometimes sweaters, equipment provided, permission to use the name & logo etc. Wasnt like Billy Reay or whomever with mebbe Stan Mikita & Bobby Hull came in & gave clinics or anything. Wasnt what you'd call benevolent, munificent. Had everything to do with rights, branding the entire herd while they were still heifers.

mbhhofr 04-13-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 63883465)
Combination of age groupings and the minor/major concept. All under one provincial governing body answering directly to the CAHA?

It was under the jurisdiction of the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Association. There was no inter-provincial playoffs until Jr., which then came under the CAHA jurisdiction.

Canadiens1958 04-15-2013 06:13 AM

Comparables
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhhofr (Post 63908709)
It was under the jurisdiction of the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Association. There was no inter-provincial playoffs until Jr., which then came under the CAHA jurisdiction.

That would represent the Memorial Cup playdowns?

Back to the Park League hockey in Winnipeg. Montreal in the early 1950s featured 6 districts each subdivided into zones - minimum 6 per district with leagues subdivided by category, usually the Little NHL format with six teams per league, 12-15 players per team. Winnipeg?

Also in Montreal there was a concentrated but productive school hockey program. Was there a similar structure in Winnipeg?

Some elementary French Catholic schools - 4 male classes per grade 1 - 7, 35/36 students per class had loose house league structure on the schoolyard rink(s) at lunch time after school. Usually supporting an elite "Loisir" youth team per category in the local Park league zone. Also a few of the public and private schools, French and English, had hockey teams, very good quality, Bantam U14, Junior U16, Senior U18.


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