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-   -   HOF player subtraction (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1406907)

thinlizzy 04-18-2013 09:10 AM

HOF player subtraction
 
I took a quick glance at the inductee's and have to say if I could remove one from the list it would be Clark Gilles. I know he played a part in the Islanders dynasty, but to me he didn't deserve to get into the HOF. JMO

Any others that might be on shaky ground ?

pnep 04-18-2013 09:45 AM

Worst players in the Hall of Fame?

Vancouver Blazers 04-18-2013 09:55 AM

Edgar Laprade, Dino Ciccarelli, Dick Duff, Gerry Cheevers, Lanny McDonald...

Kloparren 04-18-2013 10:21 AM

Why would you remove players? You should be adding more of them if anything. Especially the ones that retired around 2000-2012.

Vancouver Blazers 04-18-2013 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kloparren (Post 64174453)
Why would you remove players? You should be adding more of them if anything. Especially the ones that retired around 2000-2012.

The more restrictive it is, the better. To a point, anyways. What good is a Hall if it's not prestigious?

Epsilon 04-18-2013 11:53 AM

Leo Boivin.

There are a ton of bad forward choices for the HOF even if we just restrict to post-war/O6 and onwards, but Boivin sticks out like a sore thumb on defense. Here's a detailed thread on the subject:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=927143

Kloparren 04-18-2013 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers (Post 64177845)
The more restrictive it is, the better. To a point, anyways. What good is a Hall if it's not prestigious?

I think it's plenty prestigious if some of the best players from the 90s can't even get in and they only allow 4 players max per year. There are around 20 atm you could argue for to get in for this upcoming one and that backlog is only going to grow. No one says that Clark Gillies or Boivin were as famous or on the same level as Ted Lindsay. And most would not say that Ted Lindsay was on the same level as Beliveau....this can just go keep going in a cycle. You have to accept that there are different levels within the HOF. It's not a list to rank players. One player being in there will not taint another one. Seeing Clark Gillies in the HOF does not make me think in my head that he's automatically a top 50 or top 100 player of all-time. It's just an indication that he was historically significant.

The argument that you should be making is that if Boivin is in there then X (let's say, another 50s dman like Jimmy Thomson) should be in there as well, not take Boivin out. We don't know what the committee was thinking at the time of induction and how prestigious the players career was considered at the time being. Mats Sundin's induction was too much for some of you but he was a star in the league for more than a decade for the biggest franchise in the league and the selection committee clearly saw something. And maybe Boivin's stats do not stick out but neither do those of Scott Stevens for much of his career and he was consistently a top 5 dman defensively in the league for more than a decade.

Vancouver Blazers 04-18-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

The argument that you should be making is that if Boivin is in there then X (let's say, another 50s dman like Jimmy Thomson) should be in there as well, not take Boivin out.
Er, no. Then we find a guy who was only slightly worse than Thomson. Then a guy slightly worse than that guy. And suddenly every player who has ever played is in the Hall, because hey, that other guy is in, so why not?

I'd probably remove up to 50 players from the Hall if I had a chance. A handful of select builders too. Harold Ballard, for one.

Evincar 04-18-2013 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kloparren (Post 64183359)
I think it's plenty prestigious if some of the best players from the 90s can't even get in and they only allow 4 players max per year.

Which players are you referring to?

VanIslander 04-18-2013 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers (Post 64173535)
Edgar Laprade, Dino Ciccarelli, Dick Duff, Gerry Cheevers, Lanny McDonald...

Dino Ciccarelli had a rare skill that few players even are worthy of comparing to him. If you don't know what made him so special then you likely are staring too much at stat sheets and not enough at his actual play.

Bernie Federko is another player who was elite at a particular (different) skill that the history of the game should not forget, hence his induction.

If anything, the criiticism of their inductions could be a sign of the lack of adequate documented memoirs to remind future generations of why they were so great at what they did, why they were hockey greats, why the history of hockey ought not to forget them!!

Hardyvan123 04-18-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 64227153)
Dino Ciccarelli had a rare skill that few players even are worthy of comparing to him. If you don't know what made him so special then you likely are staring too much at stat sheets and not enough at his actual play.

Bernie Federko is another player who was elite at a particular (different) skill that the history of the game should not forget, hence his induction.

If anything, the criiticism of their inductions could be a sign of the lack of adequate documented memoirs to remind future generations of why they were so great at what they did, why they were hockey greats, why the history of hockey ought not to forget them!!

For certain players yes I would agree but for others, it's pretty clear there was a much lower bar or threshold required for their induction.

Clark Gillies, Leo Boivin, Edgar Laprade and Cheevers are examples of this.

Big Phil 04-19-2013 05:28 PM

The HHOF has made mistakes for sure. Harold Ballard in there as a builder is nonsensical. He inherited a dynasty, left them unprepared for expansion, and ran them to the ground one decade worse than the other.

There are a lot of names that I question as players as well. Pulford, Duff, Neely, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk, Gillies, etc. Most of the questionable picks are forwards for whatever reason. Out of that above group, Ciccarelli is the best of the bunch and has the best case to be legit. I always consider Federko to be rather borderline and as for goalies I think Cheevers is possibly the worst but still good enough to make "my" cut.

But no doubt there are some names I would never had inducted in the first place.

charliolemieux 04-20-2013 01:04 AM

I think it is a sad joke that the Hockey Hall of Fame has more inductees than the Baseball Hall of Fame.
There are a lot of early inductees that are there because after winning a couple of cups were automatic shoe-ins.

Ed Wood 04-21-2013 12:57 AM

Gillies, Pulford and Duff are pretty iffy but I don't mind Boivin being in. I haven't done an in depth analysis or anything but he and Denis Potvin are the two best hip checkers I've ever seen. It musn't be an easy skill to master because we see so little of it today. I miss it.

Vancouver Blazers 04-21-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wood (Post 64372357)
Gillies, Pulford and Duff are pretty iffy but I don't mind Boivin being in. I haven't done an in depth analysis or anything but he and Denis Potvin are the two best hip checkers I've ever seen. It musn't be an easy skill to master because we see so little of it today. I miss it.

People skate faster now.

Canadiens1958 04-21-2013 01:31 PM

Not Really
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers (Post 64385375)
People skate faster now.

You have plenty of NHL players who are not fast - Johan Franzen, Todd Bertuzzi, Drew Miller, Milan Lucic, Rene Bourque short list amongst forwards.


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