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-   -   Question for SJ fans (MOD: Douglas Murray) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1407055)

MurphyDump 04-18-2013 12:43 PM

Question for SJ fans (MOD: Douglas Murray)
 
Hey all, Pittsburgh fan coming here with a question.

When we acquired Murray, I was pretty excited, being that we don't have a physical defenseman that can clear the crease and block shots the way he does. Looking for Martin, Niskanen, Eaton, or Letang to clear bodies is a dream at best. Orpik used to have that edge, but has completely softened and actually regressed in his play.

Murray has come in and played the bottom pairing role to a tee. He's slow as hell and sometimes tries to skate the puck when he shouldn't, but he's fitting in perfectly and putting a little fear in teams trying to set up shop in front of the net. He's also laid out a few body checks that left me shaking my head. These are two traits that completely plagued the Penguins prior to his arrival. Our d couldn't handle any big forwards.

Many Sharks fans said we'd regret adding him and that he was so bad, but I can honestly say he's been playing his role perfectly, heck he's even got a goal and 2 assists in 9 games! Although we may have overpaid, most fans are happy.

My question is, has your blueline improved since his departure? I know sometimes it's addition by subtraction. Going 7-2-1 in your last 10 has to say something for the Sharks play, so I assume things are going well? What defenseman has stepped into his spot and how has he played?

If you feel the blueline got better by trading him and allowing another player to step in, then the draft picks you received are even more of a bonus.

Just curious to your thoughts?

one2gamble 04-18-2013 12:47 PM

Our blueline is night and day better since his departure but Murray was bad here because he essentially was being asked to play over his head, the roll he is playing for the pens is exactly the roll he needs to be playing to be successful. There is some issue with size but there are not that many teams that have large enough and fast enough forwards to expose that aspect.

DrFeelgood 04-18-2013 12:48 PM

Whoever told you that you'd regret getting Murray is crazy, he's a heart and soul guy who can be extremely valuable. The Sharks needed to get younger and faster and with the rise of Matt Irwin, Murray became expendable. Because of this, i'd say the Sharks D has improved overall, as we've accomplished the goal of getting younger and faster. That said, our PK and defense overall is going to miss his physicality and shot blocking.

One of those addition by subtraction trades that works out very well for both teams in the end.

MurphyDump 04-18-2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrFeelgood (Post 64180643)
Whoever told you that you'd regret getting Murray is crazy, he's a heart and soul guy who can be extremely valuable. The Sharks needed to get younger and faster and with the rise of Matt Irwin, Murray became expendable. Because of this, i'd say the Sharks D has improved overall, as we've accomplished the goal of getting younger and faster. That said, our PK and defense overall is going to miss his physicality and shot blocking.

One of those addition by subtraction trades that works out very well for both teams in the end.

Agreed!

You only need read the original trade thread in the trade section to see the Sharks fans that were lambasting him and saying that he was useless and Pens fans would soon see that he's not good and blah blah.

I'm happy that it's worked out for both teams. I try pulling for the Sharks every year, even though they keep screwing my playoff pools every year! I've always found them to be a class organization that lacks cockiness and cheapshots...save for the days of Marchment! Good luck in the playoffs!

OrrNumber4 04-18-2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one2gamble (Post 64180603)
Our blueline is night and day better since his departure but Murray was bad here because he essentially was being asked to play over his head, the roll he is playing for the pens is exactly the roll he needs to be playing to be successful. There is some issue with size but there are not that many teams that have large enough and fast enough forwards to expose that aspect.

Murray was asked to be the #5-6 guy on SJ; he's being asked to be the #5-6 guy in Pittsburgh.

Arrch 04-18-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MurphyDump (Post 64180357)
Many Sharks fans said we'd regret adding him and that he was so bad

I doubt that. I'm sure "many" Sharks fans said you overpaid, but that's only because a lot of us would have traded him for a 7th. It was certainly addition by subtraction for us, and I'm glad to see him succeeding for you guys. Definitely a win-win trade.

Sharkway Drive 04-18-2013 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrFeelgood (Post 64180643)
Whoever told you that you'd regret getting Murray is crazy, he's a heart and soul guy who can be extremely valuable. The Sharks needed to get younger and faster and with the rise of Matt Irwin, Murray became expendable. Because of this, i'd say the Sharks D has improved overall, as we've accomplished the goal of getting younger and faster. That said, our PK and defense overall is going to miss his physicality and shot blocking.

One of those addition by subtraction trades that works out very well for both teams in the end.

He was blocking shots because he was bleeding corsi when he was on the ice. I don't think there was once where he had a positive corsi in a game. This was with more offensive zone starts vs defensive zone.

Trojan35 04-18-2013 01:13 PM

Murray was a solid #4 for a long time here. After he broke his adams apple, he hasn't been the same with slightly slower play and less physicality. Further, the way McLellan's system here evolved (or de-volved) didn't help him.

It looks like he's closer to his 18-month-ago self in Pittsburgh than his play in SJ this shortened season, and that's a good thing.

Also, there's now a whole new conference that gets to experience Murray's reverse-hits. Epically awesome.

TheJuxtaposer 04-18-2013 01:29 PM

Our blueline is infinitely better without Murray. Glad to see he's worked out for you though, he deserves to win.

DuckEatinShark 04-18-2013 02:40 PM

Murray is still a serviceable bottom-pairing defenseman. It looks like it'll be one of those win-win trades that happen so rarely in the NHL. Glad to see him do so well.

The Pens forwards are also a better fit for Murray because they are speedy enough to retrieve pucks and cover up for his lack of speed. The Sharks forwards before the deadline were slow and prone to turnovers.

hateseed 04-18-2013 02:48 PM

Murray was/is good, but his speed was a liability for the Sharks this year and we weren't going to retain him (lack of spots and funds) so we flipped him. He has several upsides and some obvious issues, but anyone who doesn't give him the credit he deserves isn't a true hockey fan.

209 04-18-2013 02:56 PM

Crankshaft has thrown some of the greatest body checks in Sharks history. That adams apple injury totally softened his passive-aggressive behavior. Its safe to say that many western conference forwards are very happy he is gone. Yes he is slow. Yes he tried playing with the puck a bit too much in the defensive zone. And yes, he is a very effective defensive defenseman. For the Sharks, that slowness was causing too many issues (hence what happened after that 7-0 start). With Demers healthy and the advent of Irwin and Tennyson, it was time to let go of the slowness on D and move to a different way to play.

AstroDan 04-18-2013 02:58 PM

D is definitely better, way faster. His spot allowed SJ to add minutes to some exciting young talent. You should've seen his hitting a couple years ago!
As an Ivy-leaguer, he was probably the most intelligent man in the (locker) room.
I, for one, miss him.

hockeyball 04-18-2013 03:02 PM

Nothing more to say than we are thrilled for him because he is an absolutely awesome guy in every way. We all miss him a lot, even those of us who are glad he's moved on. One of the best late draft steals in Sharks history and we all wish him nothing but the best.

I doubt you will find any fan who will say anything bad about Murray as an individual. He's just pure class.

Barrie22 04-18-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyball (Post 64187201)
Nothing more to say than we are thrilled for him because he is an absolutely awesome guy in every way. We all miss him a lot, even those of us who are glad he's moved on. One of the best late draft steals in Sharks history and we all wish him nothing but the best.

I doubt you will find any fan who will say anything bad about Murray as an individual. He's just pure class.

if you do, that person needs to be hunted down an b slapped to obliviion.

TealTownUSA 04-18-2013 03:37 PM

yea, what everyone elses' been saying. whoever told you it will be regretting is plain stupid. Crankshaft is slow, but plays with heart. now if you got Colin White or Nick Wallin couple of years ago, then yes, we'd be laughing.

Phu 04-18-2013 03:39 PM

There are probably several reasons for Murray's ... less terrible ... effect on Pittsburgh, personally I think the biggest is that he's playing the east now. Teams haven't figured out yet how to make him a liability to you, but also, the east doesn't seem to play as aggressive, quick and tight in the neutral zone and on the forecheck. Out west, Murray had to bail on pucks to get ahead of the rush and would get pressured into mistakes by the forecheck all the time.

Also, the east plays a lot more of an uptempo offensive style rather than the locked down defensive style of the west, where one mistake can determine the outcome of a game, and where it's a battle for territory more than a battle for goals.

You also look at the makeup of teams in the east, you have a whole division that is dreadful in the southeast, and even the better teams like Montreal are not top to bottom constructed like juggernauts (i.e. they are quick but small, whereas in the west you have a ton of teams that are fast AND huge). You get to face peter budaj, that says it all. And you still let in 4 goals.

Then of course you have the change of scenery effect.

do0glas 04-18-2013 03:40 PM

i dont think anyone said they would regret it. but most posters seemed to give the uncensored scoop on his play. and most PITT fans rightly said he had the speed in front of him to make up for it. he just didnt work in our prevent defense system, and a team in need of as many good breakout passers as possible he was an anchor, so he needed to go.

but i always liked watching him play, and im glad hes scoring a bit now.

wtfisthis 04-18-2013 03:54 PM

Sharks games are so much more enjoyable now without Murray. I was getting tired of seeing him move like he's got cinder blocks for skates and he was pretty much a black hole whenever the puck was on his stick.

sjshark91 04-18-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer (Post 64182611)
Our blueline is infinitely better without Murray. Glad to see he's worked out for you though, he deserves to win.

This.

Hatrick Marleau 04-18-2013 04:11 PM

@BSH_EricT: Pre-Douglas Murray trade, SJ had 51.5% FenClose and PIT had 51.4%. Post-trade, SJ is up to 55.9%, PIT down to 49.0%. h/t @FTFs_SnarkSD

Our D is way better and our PK is arguably better.

Barrie22 04-18-2013 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau (Post 64190257)
@BSH_EricT: Pre-Douglas Murray trade, SJ had 51.5% FenClose and PIT had 51.4%. Post-trade, SJ is up to 55.9%, PIT down to 49.0%. h/t @FTFs_SnarkSD

Our D is way better and our PK is arguably better.

that stat i believe is just not fair to murray though. even if you believe the sharks were playing the style of play they were playing because of murray and clowe. the sharks changed there system after murray was traded.

and the pens lost letang, crosby, malkin, neal once murray arrived in a pens uniform, that is 4 of the pens best players.

Phu 04-18-2013 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrie22 (Post 64190395)
that stat i believe is just not fair to murray though. even if you believe the sharks were playing the style of play they were playing because of murray and clowe. the sharks changed there system after murray was traded.

and the pens lost letang, crosby, malkin, neal once murray arrived in a pens uniform, that is 4 of the pens best players.

well the first stat is definitely fair, maybe not so much the 2nd. they are still winning though so ... ??

do0glas 04-18-2013 04:39 PM

his HARO is -2.9. so on average when he is on the ice, the team is doing 3 percent worse offensively than they do normally. his linemates are above average and competition is below average. so he does have something to do with it. but not having their top guys etc is also contributing.

our boost has less to do with murray than pitts decline though, imo.

TheJuxtaposer 04-18-2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by do0glas (Post 64191537)
his HARO is -2.9. so on average when he is on the ice, the team is doing 3 percent worse offensively than they do normally. his linemates are above average and competition is below average. so he does have something to do with it. but not having their top guys etc is also contributing.

our boost has less to do with murray than pitts decline though, imo.

The three factors that have boosted the Sharks' numbers so much since the trade: Burns in, Pavelski to 3C, and the dumping of Murray. I'm not going to guess which is most responsible, but losing Murray and playing Demers is a big part of it.

It's Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Letang being injured that's screwed Pittsburgh much more than Murray in.


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