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-   -   All Sedin Discussion (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1407557)

vector209 04-19-2013 01:10 AM

All Sedin Discussion
 
Now before I get chewed out and raged on, just hear me out first:

I like to consider myself a pretty level headed fan, and unlike many who seem to go all Jekyll and Hyde every time the Canucks either win or lose, I prefer to focus on longer term trends, and the trend ever since the beginning of 2012, is that this team simply can no longer score like it used to, and that lack of scoring has affected other areas of this team's game.

People always blame the defense for some reason, and rarely hold the offense (or lack thereof) as accountable, but if the team could just be that much more potent offensively, then the defense wouldn't have so much work cut out for it.

It's kind of like in football, where if the offense can't sustain any pressure, then it always leaves the defense out there to do more work, and eventually, fatigue and/or doubt sets in, resulting in breakdowns. It really seems like on most nights, this is the major problem with the team. Case in point: the St. Louis game, where they could barely generate any pressure in the Blues zone, yet miraculously, they managed to limit the Blues to one goal in regulation. The truth is that can't happen every night and sooner or later, ugly incidences (the Detroit meltdown) occur.

It's kind of disappointing that so many people still fail to see that the fundamental problem with this team is its lack of transition game, something that absolutely kept other teams on their heels in 2010 and 2011. The focus was on sustaining pressure and rushing up the ice without giving the opposition time to think or adjust, and as a result, it led to some career years for several players.

Now, I'm bearing witness to this general apathy that's settled over this team, and I think a large of that blame should fall on the Sedins, who've failed to lead the rest of this squad with that exhibited apathy.

Typically, you're only as good as your leaders are, and it's usually up to the top dogs on the team to rally the rest of the troops and set a successful tone that engenders success.

I love the Sedins, they're some of the classiest players in the league, but class doesn't always lead to success and win you games. I look at a guy like Pronger, who was a complete ******* on the ice, and wonder if his attitude and general mercilessness wasn't the determining factor for taking three different teams to the finals. For all the praise the Sedins get about being pretty tough and durable, sometimes you just have to call a spade and spade and admit that these guys are soft. They're just not intimidating players in any way (speed-wise, aggression-wise, enthusiasm-wise).

Too much blame is laid out across the rest of this team, and these guys seem to be exempt from most of it--largely due in part to their general likability stemming from their contributions within the community. Like I said, you're only as good as your leaders allow you to be. Your best players are your best players, and when the Sedins were a couple of years ago, this team was different: energized, invigorated, dangerous even when they didn't have the puck. Now they seem to be swimming in this fog of lethargy and people should look no further than a pair of twins on the top line leading the charge.

I don't know, maybe it's because I come from football, where I'm used to fervor and zealousness, and guys yelling at one another to get each other jacked up before the game. Maybe it's because I've watched too many Ray Lewis pre-game rituals. Whatever it is, I still think something needs to be done and these guys (Daniel and Henrik) need to be held more accountable.

Being a professional is great, but sometimes you gotta let the fire out and so far, these guys have failed incredibly in the department.

VeteranNetPresence 04-19-2013 01:23 AM

this team probably isn't going to win a cup with the sedin's as their go-to-guys. their timid, hokey-pokey play is not built for the playoffs

Kip96 04-19-2013 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence (Post 64236087)
this team probably isn't going to win a cup with the sedin's as their go-to-guys. their timid, hokey-pokey play is not built for the playoffs

You don't win the cup with one line

Teams that win have 3rd and 4th line grinders who elevate their play and chip regularly. We have never had any of those

RobertKron 04-19-2013 01:33 AM

So at the start you outline the main problem being the transition game, and then go on to talk about stuff that isn't the transition game. I don't follow.

VeteranNetPresence 04-19-2013 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kip96 (Post 64236325)
You don't win the cup with one line

Teams that win have 3rd and 4th line grinders who elevate their play and chip regularly. We have never had any of those

it's hard to win a cup when your top guys are routinely shut down. henrik sedin scored 50% of his points in 5 games against san jose. that canucks team had a good 3rd line, the sedin's just didn't show up in the cup final when things got more physical

Reverend Mayhem 04-19-2013 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence (Post 64236087)
this team probably isn't going to win a cup with the sedin's as their go-to-guys. their timid, hokey-pokey play is not built for the playoffs

Their playoff play last year was one of the more inspiring efforts. I really hope they do the same this year.

As much as everyone loves them dearly, and as much as I love them as well. What have Kesler and Burrows done for us in the playoffs? They always seem to get injured and become ineffective when we need them. Everyone says they are playoff guys but really their pedigree isn't that great. In particular those are two guys that need to say: "Hey, I can be better than someone who can yap and be gritty. I can score, I can make a real impact on a game and the team needs me to be my best."

I think they have it in them, anyone who saw the first three rounds in '11 will agree with me. The question is will they? I really think Kesler especially needs to say: "I am a world-class player. I want to win a Cup. Nothing will stop me." Because really he is a world-class player and he can win a Stanley Cup.

In fact everyone on the inside of the dressing needs to think they are a world-class team and that they can win a Stanley Cup because truly they are. They are a potential Cup winner. They have the pieces. Thing is, potential means crap when you aren't reaching it.

Pip 04-19-2013 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kip96 (Post 64236325)
You don't win the cup with one line

Teams that win have 3rd and 4th line grinders who elevate their play and chip regularly. We have never had any of those

this, we have to remember that even the great Jonathan Toews had only like 2 points in the SCFs against Philly. Crosby got shut down when he won the cup. All top players need support.

Reverend Mayhem 04-19-2013 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by live playoff hockey (Post 64236695)
this, we have to remember that even the great Jonathan Toews had only like 2 points in the SCFs against Philly. Crosby got shut down when he won the cup. All top players need support.

This is precisely why I'd rather have 6 50-point guys in my top 6 forwards than 2 100-point guys.

VeteranNetPresence 04-19-2013 01:42 AM

canucks got support, torres and lapierre both scored game winners in the cup final. sedin's laid a goose egg

DL44 04-19-2013 01:45 AM

Someone doesn't remember Henrik going beastmode last yr vs LA?

He was a man playing with boys in that series.. his skill level went to a whole new level where it was soooo clear he was the best player on the ice. No one else on the Canucks came even close to playing to his level. Unfortunately you can't win games with 1 player...
(blah blah - he didn't score - blah blah... Watch the freakin games!)

I'm chalking this up to people just taking what the Sedins do for granted... they've been doing their thing so consistently over the last 6-7 yrs, that the appreciation is lost on many van fans.

Only one way that appreciation will come for those people --- Multiple seasons after they are long gone as the the franchise leaders in pts and the only Art Ross/Hart/Lindsey trophy winners this franchise will see for at least another generation - at least... i'll bet much longer than that.

NuxFan09 04-19-2013 01:46 AM

I hope the OP doesn't get flamed because he's making a fair point. Most of us love the Sedins and will continue to love them. But I think it's time for us to start admitting that maybe they just aren't the players to lead this team to the promised land. It's getting tiring watching them be non factors in these meltdown games because they're the common denominator in them. I mentioned in the GDT that they aren't the types that push to right the ship when the ship is going down. They just sink right along with the ship.

But again, I still love 'em. They're the best two players this organization has produced and after all is said and done, I'm proud to call them Canucks.

aandbreatheme 04-19-2013 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by live playoff hockey (Post 64236695)
this, we have to remember that even the great Jonathan Toews had only like 2 points in the SCFs against Philly. Crosby got shut down when he won the cup. All top players need support.

Yeah, Crosby only had one goal in that 7 game series. It's a wonder how they managed to win (though it was still great).

As for Toews, that team was just so stacked, I'm reluctant to give him that much credit. If they go on and win this time around, it's a different story.

Win One Before I Die 04-19-2013 01:53 AM

when in doubt, Derek Roy

Pip 04-19-2013 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andbreatheme (Post 64237311)
Yeah, Crosby only had one goal in that 7 game series. It's a wonder how they managed to win (though it was still great).

As for Toews, he was good in the playoffs, but that team was just so stacked I'm reluctant to give him that much credit. If they go on and win this time around, it's a different story.

fun fact, Talbot had 4 goals in that series

Malkin had 2, Staal had 2, and as you mentioned, Crosby had 1

Virtanen2Horvat 04-19-2013 01:58 AM

I totally agree and I have said it too the Sedins are not gonna win a cup with the Canucks they are soft. We need star players on the first line that stick up for thereselfs, the Sedins are never rough in those situations.

Anyways get used to it we might have the Sedins for 5-7 more years until they retire :( Also another thing is they fall asleep during the playoffs.

I think Kesler is fine where he is it would be nice to have some other skilled players with him that get into the dirty play and a solid third line that can score a few goals and keep pressure on/forecheck. We could get Roy but might need to downgrade a bit because Roy's place is at center and I am sure Roy does not want to play on the 3rd line.


A 4th line with a big guy like McGrattin would be good, he is going to be a free agent this summer it would be nice to pick him up Since Weise, Sestito, Lapierre and Pinnizzotto are all free agents this summer.

EDIT: I still respect the Sedins though and enjoy watching them play. I think we will do alright the first round but fall in the 2nd or 3rd. Higgins, Tanev, Bieksa and possibly Booth should all be back.

Wilch 04-19-2013 02:04 AM

2010-11 was one of the most dominating regular seasons put up by any team in the history of the game.

The Sedins are still excellent top liners. I thought they look great on the ES this season. If our powerplay wasn't so ****** they'd be contending for the Art Ross trophy again this season.

Johnny Canucker 04-19-2013 02:07 AM

Sedins are not the problem. The whole team this year is just mediocre. Gonna be an extremely short playoffs. In 30 days we will no longer be playing hockey. Book it.

NuxFan09 04-19-2013 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilch (Post 64237887)
2010-11 was one of the most dominating regular seasons put up by any team in the history of the game.

The Sedins are still excellent top liners. I thought they look great on the ES this season. If our powerplay wasn't so ****** they'd be contending for the Art Ross trophy again this season.

None of that matters, man. Have we all not learned that yet? I will admit that Hank had a fantastic series against the Kings last year and if that continues again this year, hey, we might be looking at a better fate for the Canucks. I'm just not holding my breath.

aandbreatheme 04-19-2013 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by live playoff hockey (Post 64237551)
fun fact, Talbot had 4 goals in that series

Malkin had 2, Staal had 2, and as you mentioned, Crosby had 1

Yeah. No one is going to question it because, in the end, they ended up winning.

Pip 04-19-2013 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilch (Post 64237887)
2010-11 was one of the most dominating regular seasons put up by any team in the history of the game.

The Sedins are still excellent top liners. I thought they look great on the ES this season. If our powerplay wasn't so ****** they'd be contending for the Art Ross trophy again this season.

exactly, there are plenty of other concerns surrounding this team, the biggest for me being the inconsistency of our defenseman, and our special teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andbreatheme (Post 64238069)
Yeah. No one is going to question it because, in the end, they ended up winning.

Exactly, if we won game 7 it wouldn't of mattered if the Sedins only had a goal each, they would be "playoff performers"

Verviticus 04-19-2013 02:54 AM

you're inferring their attitude from the little that you see them and not from the massive amount of information that the privileged (players) have. you're making judgement calls on these inferences which, in my opinion, are flawed

you're also taking qualities you understand that demonstrate competitive fire, and ignoring the qualities that the sedins possess

if you define apathy as "things the sedins don't do", then of course your conclusions will be "the sedins are apathetic". this is the thing you are doing

Verviticus 04-19-2013 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vector209 (Post 64235543)
For all the praise the Sedins get about being pretty tough and durable, sometimes you just have to call a spade and spade and admit that these guys are soft.

no i dont. this isn't true

Soth 04-19-2013 03:01 AM

oh brother.

We got to game seven not too long ago with the sedins. The reason we lost was not the sedins. It was injuries - we had lots boston had not many. That was bad luck for us, good luck for boston.

Any team that wins a cup gets lucky somewhere along the line, whether it is to avoid injuries, avoid opposition goalies going on a hot streak or whatever.

But seriously, all these 'this team can never win a cup' when we were within a hair of winning it before, it ridiculous. Fans in vancouver don't know how good they have it.

LiveeviL 04-19-2013 03:04 AM

There is not one true way to lead. Teams fail and succeed with different leadership, if this as easy not only that all teams would look the same, the whole society would be streamlined that successful way whatever that might be. For all the Sedins unwillingness to fight or hit very much they are not rocked by anything and continue to play their game - that is displaying leadership too.

So what is the problem then?
What this team needs is more depth. Any playoff team can take out the first line of any other play-off team if they can concentrate on it. It feels like the 2-4 lines are kind of an experiment all the time - not to mention the D-pairings. I do not think that injuries are the problem here. Injuries are something one has to calculate with on every team, there is a need for building in some redundancy in the line-up. The dependency on Kesler was really a weak spot, one injury and the rag-tag lines was manifest. It isn't like it was totally out of the question that Kesler could have some problems coming either.

I really do not demand AV or Gillies to go, I think they are above average in their respective roles, but they for sure got glaring weaknesses as well. Canucks was hailed not so long ago as a good team for UFAs, apparently not anymore. Or rather, if that reputation actually holds some value, then the failure of building depth by Gilles is even bigger.

AV on the other hand seems to shun the concept of chemistry (except the first line). When injuries arise AV respond with constant experimenting and let few players build any chemistry. There seems to be little patience. Chemistry is not something which the players are allowed to build with AV, the just should have it and if not the circus continue.

vector209 04-19-2013 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Canucker (Post 64238031)
Sedins are not the problem. The whole team this year is just mediocre. Gonna be an extremely short playoffs. In 30 days we will no longer be playing hockey. Book it.

This is kind of what I'm talking about: deflection from the top. These guys are the leaders of the team, and the onus is on them to get others to march to their beat. Unfortunately, that beat has been pretty uninspiring as of late.

There's no question that they're endearing players, but they just lack that killer streak. These guys need to show emotion, and it's such a cop-out when people say "it just isn't how the Sedins are". Well duh, and I'm saying that's part of the problem.

Some people already seem to be interpreting this thread as a knock on their lack of offensive production. While I did start out talking about the offense and its gradual decline (which I feel can be attributed to the Sedins as well), this thread is as much about the Sedins lack of fire on the ice as it is about their point totals in the playoffs.

These guys evoke a certain attitude and given their position on the team, it has no where to go but trickle down. Instead of passion, tenacity and even a litle meanness, these guys are like emotionless robots.

Imagine if you worked for a company that was hemorrhaging assets and when you look to the top, the CEO just callously shrugs and tells you to just go with the status quo, even when everything around him isn't quite as rosy as it once was.


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