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RedWingsNow* 04-21-2013 12:26 PM

Filppula
 
I hate using this expression, because there were a lot of people who had this asinine opinion about Brad Stuart last year -- but Val Filppula is mailing it in.

I've always like Filppula, even if he's pretty soft and even if people praised him way too much in the Hudler-vs-Flip debates.
He's got good speed. He's defensively responsbile. He sees the ice well and makes great passes.
He had a great year last year at Wings and I believe he can be a solid 2nd line center on just about any team in the league, if he has top quality linemates.

But this year he's been brutal. I know he was hurt. And maybe he's still hurt. But he just seems to be playing half-hearted hockey.

Last night Flip lost the draw on Vancouver's only goal. Guys win draws. No biggie. But the way he stumbled and fell gave the Canucks the extra time the needed to pass it from point to point and tee it up.

Very next shift, it seems, Filppula gives it away for a break away.

Later, Zetterberg passes to him in the middle of the offensive zone, and he took a weak shot into the corner that had the CBC guys chuckling.

He's playing at about a 15 goal 30 to 35 point pace. He's also -5. Sometimes, stats tell the story. Sometimes, they don't.

But Filppula fails the eyeball test too.

Maybe it's the injury. Maybe he hates the coach and wants out and doesn't care that he's damaging his value. Maybe it;s moving around from line to line. Maybe the loss of Hudler has hurt the 2nd PP and hurt Flip's stats. (Flip has just 2 PP points.
Last year he had 11).

Whatever it is, I was of the opinion that Detroit needed to keep Flip, even at $5M a year, to help insure this team against Datsyuk's departure.

I'm now leaning toward "let him walk"

ZDH 04-21-2013 12:33 PM

Should've moved him at the deadline. Along with a few others. Unfortunately he's fallen into the KH Man-Crush zone and as such he aint going anywhere. Same goes for those few others.

DatsyukToZetterberg 04-21-2013 12:38 PM

I really think last year was his "career year". I know someone posted the stats a little while ago but last year he had the most ES points on our team. He had 54 ES points last year, the rest of his career per 82 games he's averaged around 37 ES points in a season. If we take away those 17 points he's over his career average it brings him back down to 49 points.

If he doesn't pick it up over the next 4 games & hopefully into playoffs then I think it's time we part ways. If he's looking to get paid 5M+ he's gotta play like a top 6 forward, I mean Adbelkader has only 2 less ES points then him (although to be fair Filppula has played 7 less games then Abs).

RedWingzz 04-21-2013 12:40 PM

It really is a shame how poorly he is performing. I have always been a huge Fil fan, even got his jersey in 2008. He has been my 3rd favorite Wing behind Dats and Z since he joined the team, but his play of late is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

He tries way too many dekes, and it rarely results in him making a productive play. He is too soft, and seems to be off his game with the slightest amount of contact. Holland should have moved him at the deadline, because there is no chance we give this guy 5 million bucks. He's playng like he's worth 2 million. Nyquist is ready to be a top 6 forward next year anyways. So long Filppula.

Frk It 04-21-2013 12:40 PM

I've always defended him on this board.... but he just hasn't been good this year.

I really do think people underestimate the skill level and talent that this guy has. But it doesn't matter when you are unable to put that to use and produce consistently with it. I would not be surprised at all if he ends up on another team and plays on a line that has chemistry and is able to put together some 60-80 point seasons consistently. He has every tool you need to be that type of player. People will probably disagree with me on that, that's fine, just my opinion.

He is the prototypical player to play on this team when you have a true puck-possession system and 3 scoring lines with plenty of depth. He really does not fill a great role given the current composition and make-up of this roster.

He will probably leave one way or another by the start of next year. He was always a guy I liked and I'll root for him wherever he ends up. Won't be bitter at all as he's probably going to ask for a lot of money.

ArGarBarGar 04-21-2013 12:41 PM

Not sure who thought Stuart was mailing it in (or why he is even involved in this conversation), but I agree.

The guy has been a disaster this season. Not sure what happened but there is no way you can take a risk on this guy if there are other options you can shoot for in the offseason.

RedWingzz 04-21-2013 12:44 PM

He's going to get his 5 mil+ on the open UFA market. It is a fairly weak class this year, so Calgary or Dallas or Carolina will pay him 5 million.

CloneHakanPlease* 04-21-2013 12:47 PM

Shoulda moved him at the draft or the deadline. Dude will probably either get overpaid and flounder or go to a real contender and be a good complimentary winger who'll produce riding off some center's coat tails. Filppula is frustrating because at times last season he showed all he had. Dude has all the physical tools (Above average size, fast, nice wrister) but he rarely can create his own offense and has been making more and more boneheaded plays recently. His "defensive tenacity" is overhyped, yes he's a good positional player in his own zone but when was the last time you saw Flip win a board battle or have a great take away?


I feel like he can be a good complimentary player. Not on this team though. Not enough protection to keep him from getting exposed anymore.

WingedWheel1987 04-21-2013 12:48 PM

The guy is trash. Let somebody else overpay him.

Flowah 04-21-2013 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWingzz (Post 64386611)
He's going to get his 5 mil+ on the open UFA market. It is a fairly weak class this year, so Calgary or Dallas or Carolina will pay him 5 million.

Calgary picking up all the Wing's loose change.

Mac was playing well for them though, and Hudler's doing pretty decent as well.

InjuredChoker 04-21-2013 12:57 PM

Made this post on the trade forum few days ago.

Quote:

07-08 78 19+17=36 (38) +16, giveaways-takeaways -1, 16:57 avg toi, 1:49 pp
08-09 80 12+28=40 (41) +9, gva-tka +7, 16:06 toi, 0:47 pp
09-10 55 11+24=35 (52) -4, gva-tka +14, 18:14, 2:27
10-11 71 16+23=39 (45) -1, gva-tka +8, 16:43, 2:01
11-12 81 23+43=66 (67) +18, gva-tka +9, 18:15, 2:27
12-13 82 16+18=34 -11, gva-tka -1, 17:49, 2:49
Last season is projected for points and +/-.

Quote:

Projected over 82 gm, Even strength points
07-08 29 p
08-09 37 p
09-10 37 p
10-11 36 p
11-12 55 p
12-13 30 p
Last season is really looking like an outlier. But even last year he somehow ended up with -7.5 rel. Corsi. 2nd worst among Wings forwards. His PDO was 1035; second best on Wings. He did face tough competition though. Those PDO numbers are much higher than he has had over the last few years.

I've always thought him as a good two way player; based on eye test. Though this year he's had his share of bad decisions and bad turnovers. But his Rel. corsi numbers are bad among Wings forwards. Though he should be one of the best two way players. And he doesn't get that tough minutes to explain that. GA/on compared to GA/off numbers have been pretty high the last few years.

pp points have varied from 4-12, reflecting how much pp time he has gotten. Except this year when he's gotten more pp time than ever but has lowest point totals and pace on pp since 08-09 season. But he hasn't been high on p/60 in pp; whether with Wings or among the league. Well, last year he was third among Wings forwards. But Wings pp was bad or even brutal anyway.

He hasn't been suffering from abnormally low sh% this year, though it's around 2 percent below his career avg. But that's the trend when you get older anyway.

He's better than what he has showed this year, though; last year he seemed to be exceptionally lucky considering his PDO but this year it's the other way around. This year he also has pretty good rel. Corsi. For some reason.

He's skating has taken a hit but I think it will bounce back somewhat. He had more jump in FEL but level of competition is ofc lower there. He is already 29 so maybe his skating won't be great from now on. We'll see. He's hockey sense isn't good enough to cover that if he loses a step. so hope is that he bounces back.

He's also losing more puck battles this year, not as strong on the puck and staying in the perimeter too much. Well he's not driving the not at all. Almost. Some at least can be attributed to that injury. Or the team that signs him better hope so.

But anyway, based on this numbers, last year seems like an outlier. But he's not as bad as he has seemed this year. Complimentary top6 player as of now and I think he'll stay at that level for next 4 years or so. Me and Wings fans expected too much from him, he's just not borderline 1st liner or player who can carry top6line by himself. Though expectations were high, he has still disappointed and he's one of the reasons why Wings have struggled. Would have been much easier if he really was this year as good as last year. Oh well, wanted him traded anyway before the season started.

Max I'd give is around 5x4.5 mil.. that might be stretching it but he does have fairly proven record. Maybe there is some homer. But if he really wants more years and/or more money.. Goodbye Flip and thanks for the years. What he's bring at that money isn't enough and can be replaced. And maybe Tatar and Nyquist would then finally get some top6 minutes.

detredWINgs 04-21-2013 12:58 PM

Filppula isn't "mailing it in," he's just a sulky player who has zero confidence when things aren't going perfectly for him.

Last year wasn't a career year - it was a fluke year. Should've moved him in the off-season.

I just said it in another thread. He's in the same class as Nik Antropov, Alexei Ponikarovsky, Alex Steen, et al. No one here would advocate adding any one of those guys for $4M, let alone $5M.

And in my opinion, the more he's relied upon to produce, the worse he's going to get. The dude can't carry a line for the life of him. Anyone thinking he's going to "replace" Datsyuk as a 2C better hope that Filppula's wingers are the second coming of Marian Hossa.

There is ZERO point paying a guy big money when he needs other big money players to help him produce.

Frk It 04-21-2013 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 64387293)
I just said it in another thread. He's in the same class as Nik Antropov, Alexei Ponikarovsky, Alex Steen, et al. No one here would advocate adding any one of those guys for $4M, let alone $5M.

To say any of those 3 players are even close to the skill level of Filppula is laughable. You hate filppula and you bash him in every thread. We got it dude.

WesNichols14 04-21-2013 01:44 PM

he's worth 3.75, 4 mil tops.

kuick 04-21-2013 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frk It (Post 64387955)
To say any of those 3 players are even close to the skill level of Filppula is laughable.

Why is it laughable? During their careers they've all put up around 30-50 points on average in their prime years, all with one over 60 (except Steen but he's far more consistent). Steen and Antropov are both putting up better numbers THIS year. Poni is a different case because he's considerably older, but at the same age he was putting up similar points coming off a 61 point year.

It's pretty clear that Filp is a purely complementary forward when it comes to production now. He took advantage of playing on a hot line last year (Z, Hudler) and is slumping without hot linemates. Don't get me wrong, complementary forwards are necessary for contending rosters, but they aren't worth $5M alone. He needed big time help to break out of his 40 point ceiling, and he's going to need help if he's ever going to get back there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 64387293)
Filppula isn't "mailing it in," he's just a sulky player who has zero confidence when things aren't going perfectly for him.

Pretty much this. I'm not sure why an offensive guy would 'mail it in' during a contract year. He's a complementary guy, and our entire offense is slumping. I wish we could keep him around, but not for $5 million. The most I'd give is 4M/4 year like Hudler got with Calgary. Even that is pushing it, Tatar or Nyquist in the same position could fill or excel offensively.

Townsend Beasley 04-21-2013 02:09 PM

I wouldnt be surprised if he finds the money isnt as good as he expected this summer, and Fil resigns 1 yr 4.25 mil to bring is value back up for that big contract next offseason.

detredWINgs 04-21-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frk It (Post 64387955)
To say any of those 3 players are even close to the skill level of Filppula is laughable. You hate filppula and you bash him in every thread. We got it dude.

Is this a joke or are you new to the NHL? Antropov and Ponikarovsky were most certainly at Filppula's skill level at his age. In fact, there are plenty of people out there who would argue Antropov in his prime was more skilled than Filppula.

As for Steen, he doesn't have as much skill as Filppula, but I included him because he's a comparable producer while still maintaining a high level two-way game. Not as skilled, but a more independent producer.

And I don't "bash" Filppula, unless you think calling a secondary scoring 40-50 point player a secondary scoring 40-50 point player is somehow "bashing."

Frk It 04-21-2013 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 64391393)
Is this a joke or are you new to the NHL? Antropov and Ponikarovsky were most certainly at Filppula's skill level at his age. In fact, there are plenty of people out there who would argue Antropov in his prime was more skilled than Filppula.

As for Steen, he doesn't have as much skill as Filppula, but I included him because he's a comparable producer while still maintaining a high level two-way game. Not as skilled, but a more independent producer.

And I don't "bash" Filppula, unless you think calling a secondary scoring 40-50 point player a secondary scoring 40-50 point player is somehow "bashing."

Antropov is skilled, the other 2 guys aren't so much in my opinion.

You say things in many other threads that go far beyond just saying he is a secondary scoring player. Don't feel like searching threads but just in this thread alone you said he is a "sulky player with zero confidence" and a "fluke". LOL. It's usually more of the same in other threads you post about Fil.

Doesn't matter because I agree with you we shouldn't pay him what he is going to ask for, so that's all that really matters.

P U L L H A R D 04-21-2013 02:30 PM

Yes, I agree,

regardless of stats and contracts and all of the other numbers we confuse ourselves with,

he doesn't pass the eyeball test. He is often seen doing something soft or just wrong, has a low hockey IQ it seems at times. He has had one pretty good year, and is almost 30.

We need to replace our Filppula's with guys who play like nutcases, drive the net, throw the puck at the net, crash the crease, go flying into the corner to get the puck, etc.

Soft Rock Renegade 04-21-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detredWINgs (Post 64391393)
Is this a joke or are you new to the NHL? Antropov and Ponikarovsky were most certainly at Filppula's skill level at his age. In fact, there are plenty of people out there who would argue Antropov in his prime was more skilled than Filppula.

As for Steen, he doesn't have as much skill as Filppula, but I included him because he's a comparable producer while still maintaining a high level two-way game. Not as skilled, but a more independent producer.

And I don't "bash" Filppula, unless you think calling a secondary scoring 40-50 point player a secondary scoring 40-50 point player is somehow "bashing."

i'd actually take steen over fil ... antropov and poni are not close though.

i think a comparable player is stalberg, who i think actually is becoming the better player this year. is someone gonna give him 5+? i think fil has really played himself into a 4.5m type of deal, and probably not for the term he would want either. don't see how he doesn't hit free agency at this point because the wings probably think is free market value is lower than fil's camp believes.

HTT3* 04-21-2013 02:40 PM

Hard to read too much in a short season with gobbs of injuries. Didn't Filppula have an injury this year, too?

P U L L H A R D 04-21-2013 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTT3 (Post 64393367)
Hard to read too much in a short season with gobbs of injuries. Didn't Filppula have an injury this year, too?

Well, you're fully ready to write Smith and Tatar off. Double standard or?

Point Shot 04-21-2013 02:44 PM

I'm all for dumping Flip. Guy just doesn't have that elite ceiling.

HTT3* 04-21-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine (Post 64393525)
Well, you're fully ready to write Smith and Tatar off. Double standard or?

Filppula is a proven player. Smith and Tatar are overrated, apparently Smith is the next Kronwall with a mean streak and Tatar is a 35+ goal scorer. If they are really that overrated, then trade their ***** to get some good return. That's good asset management.

I like Tatar as a future 3rd liner that can score, giving Detroit scoring depth... but he will never be a game breaker and he is redundant. I would prefer trading him for a guy with size and snarl to his game over a small skilled guy. As for Smith, he doesn't have the hockey IQ to be top defenseman, his destiny will always be the "whipping boy", the guy that "should be great, but never put it together". I say trade him before other GMs see he is the new Cam Barker of the league. I would love to trade him for a Nick Leddy type guy!

P U L L H A R D 04-21-2013 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTT3 (Post 64394333)
Filppula is a proven player. Smith and Tatar are overrated, apparently Smith is the next Kronwall with a mean streak and Tatar is a 35+ goal scorer. If they are really that overrated, then trade their ***** to get some good return. That's good asset management.

I like Tatar as a future 3rd liner that can score, giving Detroit scoring depth... but he will never be a game breaker and he is redundant. I would prefer trading him for a guy with size and snarl to his game over a small skilled guy. As for Smith, he doesn't have the hockey IQ to be top defenseman, his destiny will always be the "whipping boy", the guy that "should be great, but never put it together". I say trade him before other GMs see he is the new Cam Barker of the league. I would love to trade him for a Nick Leddy type guy!

Exactly, they're unproven, and as you said, lots of injuries/ shortened schedule etc.

Why don't we wait until they are regulars and play full seasons before writing the history book on their careers? Maybe one of them is better than we expect?


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