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Pitlick* 04-23-2013 10:26 PM

Tiebreaker
 
After the season, there is a possibility we could be tied with the Rangers and/or Islanders, and also have the same number of Regulation / OT wins (1st tiebreak) with these teams.

What is the second and third tiebreaker in this scenario?

Does it change if it is a 3-way tie rather than a 2-way tie?


Sorry to the neat freaks for starting a thread for this, but it is an interesting topic...

Manked 04-23-2013 10:27 PM

This kind of fits into what we've been discussing in the Around the NHL thread.

Ottawa is control of it's seeding (and playoff) destiny.

If the Sens finish 3-0-0 they will 100% be the 6th seed at worst in the playoffs. I don't know why SportsClubStats says otherwise.

EDIT: Maybe it has to do with teams like the Leafs falling in the standings.

Pitlick* 04-23-2013 10:42 PM

Tie with NYI in points and ROW... If we go 2-1 / 3-0, and Islanders 1-1 / 2-0; both teams will have 56 / 58 points and 21 / 22 ROW.

Who wins the 2nd tiebreaker with us and NYI? And what is the 2nd tiebreaker?


Edit: okay, we CAN tie NYR in points and ROW, if they go 0-0-2, and we go 1-2. And it can be 3-way with NYI if they go 0-2. Who wins the tiebreaker between Ott and NYR? And who wins the tiebreaker between all 3 teams?

Milan the God* 04-23-2013 10:48 PM

So...

The Islanders are two points up on us, with a game in hand. If we win that game in hand, we have the same number of ROW as them as well. We do hold the tiebreaker. It comes down to points in the games between us. Because there weren't an even amount of home and away games between us, the Senators first home game isn't counted (because the Sens had more points in the season series, you take away the winners first home game). That was a win. So it comes to the two in the Island, which the Sens won one and lost one in a shootout. The Sens in those two games got three points, while the Islanders got two. So the Sens win the tiebreaker.

Against the Rangers, we swept the season series three games, with one being in a shootout. Ironically, the shootout game wouldn't count for the same reasons the Sens win against the Islanders at home won't, so it gets thrown away. The Sens got 4/4 points, while the Rangers got 0/4. We win the tiebreaker there.

As Manked said, we control our own destiny. With the chance now to tie the NYI/NYR in points and win the tiebreakers, going 3-0-0 would get into the sixth seed.

Karl Cowensson 04-23-2013 10:51 PM

Does it not go Points>wins in regulation>goal differential>then which team one more games against the other.

Manked 04-23-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitlick (Post 64562445)
Tie with NYI in points and ROW... If we go 2-1 / 3-0, and Islanders 1-1 / 2-0; both teams will have 56 / 58 points and 21 / 22 ROW.

Who wins the 2nd tiebreaker with us and NYI? And what is the 2nd tiebreaker?


Edit: okay, we CAN tie NYR in points and ROW, if they go 0-0-2, and we go 1-2. And it can be 3-way with NYI if they go 0-2. Who wins the tiebreaker between Ott and NYR? And who wins the tiebreaker between all 3 teams?

We would due to a better h2h record.

Manked 04-23-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Cowensson (Post 64562941)
Does it not go Points>wins in regulation>goal differential>then which team one more games against the other.

No.

*Source Below*

* - Division leaders are seeded 1, 2, and 3 in Conference standings. If two or more clubs are tied in points during the regular season, the standing of the clubs is determined in the following order:

The fewer number of games played (i.e., superior points percentage).
The greater number of games won, excluding games won in the Shootout. This figure is reflected in the ROW column.
The greater number of points earned in games between the tied clubs. If two clubs are tied, and have not played an equal number of home games against each other, points earned in the first game played in the city that had the extra game shall not be included. If more than two clubs are tied, the higher percentage of available points earned in games among those clubs, and not including any "odd" games, shall be used to determine the standing.
The greater differential between goals for and against for the entire regular season. NOTE: In standings a victory in a shootout counts as one goal for, while a shootout loss counts as one goal against.

Milan the God* 04-23-2013 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Cowensson (Post 64562941)
Does it not go Points>wins in regulation>goal differential>then which team one more games against the other.

No.

1) Points
2) ROW
3) Points between the two teams
4) Goal differential

Milan the God* 04-23-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitlick (Post 64562445)
Tie with NYI in points and ROW... If we go 2-1 / 3-0, and Islanders 1-1 / 2-0; both teams will have 56 / 58 points and 21 / 22 ROW.

Who wins the 2nd tiebreaker with us and NYI? And what is the 2nd tiebreaker?


Edit: okay, we CAN tie NYR in points and ROW, if they go 0-0-2, and we go 1-2. And it can be 3-way with NYI if they go 0-2. Who wins the tiebreaker between Ott and NYR? And who wins the tiebreaker between all 3 teams?

If it's a three way tie, this is what NHL.com says. "If more than two clubs are tied, the higher percentage of available points earned in games among those clubs, and not including any "odd" games, shall be used to determine the standing."

Not going to look heavily into it, but we went 5-0-1 against those two teams. If the "odd games" (not sure what exactly they are...) mean the first two Sens home games in each season series, we went 3-0-1. None of them could beat that because each at least have one regulation loss to us.

malcolmedge 04-23-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHL.com
1. The fewer number of games played (i.e., superior points percentage).

2. The greater number of games won, excluding games won in the Shootout. This figure is reflected in the ROW column.

3. The greater number of points earned in games between the tied clubs. If two clubs are tied, and have not played an equal number of home games against each other, points earned in the first game played in the city that had the extra game shall not be included. If more than two clubs are tied, the higher percentage of available points earned in games among those clubs, and not including any "odd" games, shall be used to determine the standing.

4. The greater differential between goals for and against for the entire regular season. NOTE: In standings a victory in a shootout counts as one goal for, while a shootout loss counts as one goal against.

Three way tie I would assume it goes into a mini division of games played between each other.

porknbeans 04-23-2013 10:57 PM

i just want us to get into the playoffs (either by default or by actually winning games lol)

Whatever seed we get doesn't really matter IMO, the playoffs are a whole new game.

Pitlick* 04-23-2013 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porknbeans (Post 64563267)
i just want us to get into the playoffs (either by default or by actually winning games lol)

Whatever seed we get doesn't really matter IMO, the playoffs are a whole new game.

I disagree. There is a huge difference in playing Pittsburgh vs. playing Montreal, for example.

utah 04-23-2013 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porknbeans (Post 64563267)
i just want us to get into the playoffs (either by default or by actually winning games lol)

Whatever seed we get doesn't really matter IMO, the playoffs are a whole new game.

Yea, me too. Job one, clinch making the playoffs. After that, worry about seeding.....although 8th is the least preferential for obvious reasons.

Caeldan 04-23-2013 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malcolmedge (Post 64563209)
Three way tie I would assume it goes into a mini division of games played between each other.

Yes, that is what the rule says.

And yeah we hold the head to head tie-breaker against NYI and NYR, as well as the three way tie-breaker after ROW.

It's just a matter of catching them in ROW and points.

Milan the God* 04-23-2013 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malcolmedge (Post 64563209)
Three way tie I would assume it goes into a mini division of games played between each other.

Assuming "odd games" is the uneven season winners first home game, it looks like we'd win that one as well. Looked up each teams results, points gotten against each other and I took the odd game out (NYR-NYI does not have an odd game since they met four times, two on each home teams rink).

Senators

3-2 SOL vs. NYI
5-3 W vs. NYI
3-2 W vs. NYR
3-0 W vs. NYR
Record: 3-0-1 (7/8 possible points - 87.5% of possible points were earned)

Islanders

3-2 W vs. OTT
5-3 L vs. OTT
4-1 L vs. NYR
4-3 W vs. NYR
2-1 OTL vs. NYR
1-0 OTL vs. NYR
Record: 2-2-2 (6/12 possible points - 50% of possible points were earned)

Rangers

3-2 L vs. OTT
3-0 L vs. OTT
4-1 W vs. NYI
4-3 SOL vs. NYI
2-1 W vs. NYI
1-0 W vs. NYI
Record: 3-2-1 (7/12 points - 58.33333% of possible points were earned)

Ranking by Percentage of Possible Points

1) Ottawa Senators - 87.5%
2) New York Rangers - 58.3333333%
3) New York Islanders - 50%

So based on the NHL rules, "If more than two clubs are tied, the higher percentage of available points earned in games among those clubs, and not including any "odd" games, shall be used to determine the standing.", the Senators make it as the 6th seed, the Rangers the 7th seed and the Islanders the 8th seed.

kendroberts 04-24-2013 12:03 AM

Hi, I'm Ken the Sports Club Stats guy.
I saw you guys talking about how Ottawa has to get 6th if they win out, and why does scs says otherwise. So I looked at my "remove the odd game" code and ...... I think I'm doing it wrong :<
I'm sleepy, so I don't trust my eyes, but I think I'm correctly removing the odd game when there is one, but if there isn't I remove both teams first home games!!!!!!! Which is terrible.
I'll let you know what I find. Thanks.

ReginKarlssonLehner 04-24-2013 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitlick (Post 64563861)
I disagree. There is a huge difference in playing Pittsburgh vs. playing Montreal, for example.

Absolutely enormous. We have just as good a chance against Montreal than they do against us. Especially with Karlsson.

kendroberts 04-24-2013 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendroberts (Post 64567171)
Hi, I'm Ken the Sports Club Stats guy.
I saw you guys talking about how Ottawa has to get 6th if they win out, and why does scs says otherwise. So I looked at my "remove the odd game" code and ...... I think I'm doing it wrong :<
I'm sleepy, so I don't trust my eyes, but I think I'm correctly removing the odd game when there is one, but if there isn't I remove both teams first home games!!!!!!! Which is terrible.
I'll let you know what I find. Thanks.

Update 1: I still think my code is wrong. I fixed it (locally, to test) and nobodies odds changed. For example, it still shows all the same seeds in Ottawa's what if section.

Manked 04-24-2013 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendroberts (Post 64568131)
Update 1: I still think my code is wrong. I fixed it (locally, to test) and nobodies odds changed. For example, it still shows all the same seeds in Ottawa's what if section.

I just wanted to take the time to say thank you so much for your site! It's a huge help and I love it to death.

kendroberts 04-24-2013 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manked (Post 64569259)
I just wanted to take the time to say thank you so much for your site! It's a huge help and I love it to death.

Thank you for that, especially since I just said I messed things up.

The program agrees with everyone's answer to the OP.
I logged each case where Ottawa is in the head to head tiebreaker, Ottawa always won:

Code:

                                Seed
        5                6                        7                        8
Ottawa        Islanders       
Ottawa        Rangers       
Ottawa        Rangers                Islanders       
               
                Ottawa                Islanders       
                Ottawa                Rangers       
                Ottawa                Rangers                Islanders       
               
                                        Ottawa                Islanders       
                                        Ottawa                Rangers


Mercurial 04-24-2013 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milan the Great (Post 64562773)
So...

The Islanders are two points up on us, with a game in hand. If we win that game in hand, we have the same number of ROW as them as well. We do hold the tiebreaker. It comes down to points in the games between us. Because there weren't an even amount of home and away games between us, the Senators first home game isn't counted (because the Sens had more points in the season series, you take away the winners first home game). That was a win. So it comes to the two in the Island, which the Sens won one and lost one in a shootout. The Sens in those two games got three points, while the Islanders got two. So the Sens win the tiebreaker.

Against the Rangers, we swept the season series three games, with one being in a shootout. Ironically, the shootout game wouldn't count for the same reasons the Sens win against the Islanders at home won't, so it gets thrown away. The Sens got 4/4 points, while the Rangers got 0/4. We win the tiebreaker there.

As Manked said, we control our own destiny. With the chance now to tie the NYI/NYR in points and win the tiebreakers, going 3-0-0 would get into the sixth seed.

I read it as you take away the first home game of the team that had more. So the first one @ the ilse. So counting one home game each. Seems fairer overall. Same overall result, home win and a SOL.

MoreGore 04-24-2013 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendroberts (Post 64567171)
Hi, I'm Ken the Sports Club Stats guy.
I saw you guys talking about how Ottawa has to get 6th if they win out, and why does scs says otherwise. So I looked at my "remove the odd game" code and ...... I think I'm doing it wrong :<
I'm sleepy, so I don't trust my eyes, but I think I'm correctly removing the odd game when there is one, but if there isn't I remove both teams first home games!!!!!!! Which is terrible.
I'll let you know what I find. Thanks.

Impressive service :)

Thanks!

John Holmes* 04-24-2013 09:25 AM

So let's pretend we haven't actually clinched a spot yet.

Who gets in if we tie Winnipeg?

Lehner 04-24-2013 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Holmes (Post 64576789)
So let's pretend we haven't actually clinched a spot yet.

Who gets in if we tie Winnipeg?

Winnipeg, they have us in ROW.

Milan the God* 04-24-2013 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercurial (Post 64572475)
I read it as you take away the first home game of the team that had more. So the first one @ the ilse. So counting one home game each. Seems fairer overall. Same overall result, home win and a SOL.

Good catch.

This would actually take away our SOL because it was the first game we played on the Island. So we went 2-0 against them, while they went 0-2 against us. In the Rangers one, we take away the first game we played in Scotiabank Place against them. This was a 3-2 shootout win. So we go 2-0 against them, they go 0-2 against us.


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