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-   -   All Goon Hall of Fame (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1412697)

yave1964 04-25-2013 03:44 PM

All Goon Hall of Fame
 
Just got done reading the John Kordic book, Dave Schultz was quoted in there musing that Bobby Clarke said if Schultz was not on the bullies they wouldn't have won back to back championships, and how Schultz felt it was unfair that Clarke is in the Hall and he is not.
I am sure Schultz knows on the best day of his life the only way he goes to the hall is if he buys a ticket, but it got me thinking, lets say we were forming a goon hall of fame, who would be the five players chosen as the charter members of the revered and hallowed hall?

My first five, in no particular order would be:

1. Bob Probert
2. John Ferguson
3. Dave Schultz
4. Tiger Williams
5. Tie Domi

That's mine, what is yours?

Killion 04-25-2013 03:58 PM

Ok, and also in no particular order...

6. Dave Brown
7. Terry Taz O'Reilly
8. Clark Gillies
9. Stu The Grim Reaper Grimson
10. and Joey Kocur....

aka one half of the Bruise Brothers. :bb:

TheDevilMadeMe 04-25-2013 04:16 PM

Add Ted Green, Dave Semenko, and Georges Laraque

My top 5 to be added? Without putting in a lot of though:

1. Bob Probert
2. Dave Semenko
3. Dave Schultz
4. John Ferguson
5. Terry O'Reilly

pdd 04-25-2013 04:28 PM

1. Frank Boucher
2. Ron Francis
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Adam Oates

Elever 04-25-2013 06:21 PM

Chris Nilan, Mike Brault, Donald Brashear, Brad May, Rob Ray, Tony Twist, Darren McCarty....I guess the question is....what's the criteria for the Goon HOF?

Just fighters who were good and fought a lot or fighters that could play as well?

Also:

Quote:

Smythe was happy with the way I played. I led the league in
penalties for eight years in a row, I think, but he said when I
take penalties the team wins. He told me always to try to take
someone with you. Soon, I was taking on the league. Everyone wanted
to get at me. If a young guy wanted his name in the paper...fight
Red Horner. In Chicago, at the old Coliseum, there was an organ
loft at one end of the seating, and when I stayed on late during
the warmup the organist would play, "Who's afraid of the big bad
wolf?" I loved it. That was a lot of fun.
-Red Horner who managed to get 1254 PIM's in 490 games during the 30s.

Darth Yoda 04-25-2013 06:36 PM

Gary Suter
Ulf Samuelsson
Claude Lemieux
Sean Avery
Sidney Crosby

yave1964 04-25-2013 06:40 PM

The criteria for the goon hall of fame, well, PIMs are important, willing to drop the gloves at the drop of a hat.

Here is my problem, guys like Hunter, Shannahan, Claude Lemieux, could all play the game at a top level. 'Goon' to me says a guy who plays six-eight minutes a night and gets called on to give his team a spark by beating the crap out of someone on the other side. Most goons bring little else to the table. How would everyone else define the title?

Killion 04-25-2013 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yave1964 (Post 64658417)
'Goon' to me says a guy who plays six-eight minutes a night and gets called on to give his team a spark by beating the crap out of someone on the other side. Most goons bring little else to the table. How would everyone else define the title?

Ya thats a "Goon". Guys like McSorley, Ferguson etc werent "Goons" they could all play. Frankly, I dont like the term at all, its disrespectful, as even the designated 4-6min guys in every single case could skate, stick handle, check, play responsibly when asked to do so, and most of them quite intelligent. That term just conjures up a mouth breathing knuckle dragger, barely capable of speech let alone anything much else beyond psychotic outbreaks of extreme violence. Probably should just change thread title to "Top Fighters" and leave it at that. Never mind it bringing up thoughts of Boogard, Kordic & others who died tragically young, that label not one that rested easily on their shoulders.

reckoning 04-25-2013 08:27 PM

To use the example in the first post: If Dave Schultz wasn't on the Flyers, he could've easily been replaced by somebody else in that role. Bobby Clarke couldn't be replaced.

It's tough to judge what qualifies a player as a goon rather than a good player who could also fight. Every player has some value beyond their fighting, where do you draw the line. If you're going to honour fighters, someone shouldn't be disqualified just because they were also a great player. Take the 70s for example: Gillies and Robinson were great players, but also more than held their own in fights against the toughest players of that era. So they deserve to be thought of among the greatest fighters of their time, even if they weren't goons.

If there was a Hall for this, I'd prefer it be called the Fighter Hall of Fame rather than the goon one. Where players are only judged on their fighting, regardless of whether they were a superstar or a marginal 4th-liner.

Any Hall has to start its inductions with the early pioneers of their field, so for the first four inductees in a Fighter Hall of Fame, I would nominate:

Sprague Cleghorn
Joe Hall
Eddie Shore
Red Horner

Is there anyone else from the pre-O6 era who would be a better choice than any of them? Hooley Smith maybe?

yave1964 04-25-2013 09:28 PM

Yeah, there are goons still, but now more and more of them can offer something else, Dorsett can score the occasional goal, Tootoo is not a defensive liability, Chris Neil is as tough a son of a gun in the game today and brings more than just fighting.
But you have to balance these guys out with Colton Orr, who leads the league in PIMs and averages 6 minutes a game, Mike Brown, Konopka, and Crombeen, between the four of them they have 3 goals and 485 minutes in the sin bin.
I hated Claude freakin Lemieux but I reluctantly respected his ability as a player. Guys like him, Shanny, Mccarty, who could fight with the best of them and still break your back with a goal have always been favorites of mine. Guys like Orr have never done anything for me. That is why as a Wings fan I was not thrilled with the signing of Tootoo in the offseason, but he plays with an energy every shift, he seems to have accepted his lot in life as a grinder and gives everything he has on every shift. One aside, if they ever move the net about three feet to the left he will be a fifty goal scorer. I don't ever remember someone miss the net in the same place as many times in a season as he has, he consistently fires it about three feet off the mark.

Killion 04-25-2013 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckoning (Post 64673131)
Any Hall has to start its inductions with the early pioneers of their field, so for the first four inductees in a Fighter Hall of Fame, I would nominate:

Sprague Cleghorn
Joe Hall
Eddie Shore
Red Horner

Is there anyone else from the pre-O6 era who would be a better choice than any of them? Hooley Smith maybe?

I think you'd wanna add Black Jack Stewart from Chicago, circa 1940's. Nasty piece of work.... King Clancy, actually several more, as hockey was really a lot more violent from 1917 through the 30's. Post WW2, we should add;

Maurice Richard
Gordie Howe
Ted Lindsay
Ted Green
Orland Kurtenbach
bunch more...

From the WHA, a guy by the name of Frank Beaton apparently quite the Holy Terror, that league stacked with some serious Wingnut Pugilists & Miscreants. Then theres the minors. Guys like John Brophy etc etc etc...

Elever 04-25-2013 10:20 PM

I think we should make an aggreggate list with criteria. Terrible Ted Lindsay was a tough player but he was not a goon even though he'd fight when he had to for example.

The list of goons should not include any offensive stars. Basically players who were 3rd liners or below for most of their careers AND players who played pre-O6 era and either fought a lot or fought while being less important to their team.

Darth Yoda 04-25-2013 10:31 PM

Yes exactly, i'm on those posters side that say that these players should be able to play the game as well. Maybe we need to start a new thread but i would really like to create a HoF of PUGILISTS. These players can be 30 goal scorers and serviceable fighters, or like the worst ******* ever like Ulf Samuelsson that still could play. They can also be Bob Probert which skills you all know of, and playoff studs all of a sudden. THAT would be a great HoF instead of some pure fighter one containing street fighters on skates.

yave1964 04-25-2013 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kloparren (Post 64688713)
I think we should make an aggreggate list with criteria. Terrible Ted Lindsay was a tough player but he was not a goon even though he'd fight when he had to for example.

The list of goons should not include any offensive stars. Basically players who were 3rd liners or below for most of their careers AND players who played pre-O6 era and either fought a lot or fought while being less important to their team.

Policeman might be the more appropriate term. A third liner who keeps the other team honest and keeps them from taking liberties from the stars on his team, thus opening more ice for them.
Neil from Ottawa would be the prototype of this player in todays game, Mcsorley or a Semenko from the eighties, Bobby Schmautz in the 70s, John ferguson in the sixties. None were stars but all contributed and were considered a valuable member of their team.
policeman is a term that has fallen out of use nowadays, goon seems to encompass everyone who can/will fight in the game today and it is unfair. Darren Mccarty was a policeman, he was a grinder who protected the stars, while I considered Kocur a goon I never once considered Mac a goon, he could play the game as well as muck it up. I think they are really two separate categories.

LeBlondeDemon10 04-25-2013 11:57 PM

Well, if were talking policemen, Larry Robinson has to be included. Pounded Schultz in the the 76 finals and then went unchallenged until 1984 when Milbury actually fought him to a draw. Even Messier in the 81 playoffs didn't want a piece of him, choosing to wave his stick at Robinson in fear instead.

Concordski 04-26-2013 12:22 AM

Policemen is a better word. I'd have trouble even considering Bob Probert a Goon, the guy could score.

Tony Twist is the quintessential goon, IMO.

Killion 04-26-2013 12:31 AM

Shack I always considered borderline to full on Goon..
http://frameworth.com/cart/detailedImage/d_6446.jpg

Darcy Tucker.... WTF is that?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eChJYQ9nAZ...rkkoRuutu.jpeg

RR, Barber & Lane getting Real Ugly, Slapshot of course...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...hardbarber.jpghttp://blog.getitnext.com/hockey/ima...shot_movie.jpg

Strange....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...etzkypunch.jpg

thinlizzy 04-26-2013 12:56 AM

1) Dave Semenko

2) Dave Brown

3) Dave Schultz

4) P.J Stock

5) Troy Crowder

Schultz managed to put 20 goals and 16 assist while racking up 348 PIM. That is pretty impressive.

P.J 's fight with Stephan Peat is one of the greatest fights ever.

Troy Crowder went through a span where he was cleaning house in the NHL. I believe Probert was one of the victims at the time. Underated to say the least.

SealsFan 04-26-2013 09:48 AM

Link Gaetz
Jeff Odgers
Tony Twist
Joe Kocur
John Wensink

Canadiens1958 04-26-2013 10:14 AM

Overlooked
 
Overlooked from the pre O6 / O6 era.

Emile Bouchard - HHOF
Jimmy Orlando
Ken Reardon - HHOF
Jack Evans
Bill Ezinicki
Fern Flaman - HHOF
Reggie Fleming
Ted Lindsay - HHOF
Ted Harris

Killion 04-26-2013 10:17 AM

Joey Johnston
Bob Stewart
Paul Shmyr
Bobby Girard
Mike Christie

Leonard Elroy Frig
- Laid a smackdown on everyone from Peter McNab
to Darryl Sittler, Tiger Williams, Randy Holt & Don Kozak to Brad Gassof. :naughty:

tony d 04-26-2013 10:23 AM

Bob Probert and Tie Domi

Canadiens1958 04-26-2013 10:38 AM

Bob Girard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 64704515)
Joey Johnston
Bob Stewart
Paul Shmyr
Bobby Girard
Mike Christie

Leonard Elroy Frig
- Laid a smackdown on everyone from Peter McNab
to Darryl Sittler, Tiger Williams, Randy Holt & Don Kozak to Brad Gassof. :naughty:

Bob Girard, interesting addition to the list. Montreal roots. Became a roofer post hockey career.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...girarbo01.html

Why a goon?

Killion 04-26-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 64705435)
Bob Girard, interesting addition to the list. Montreal roots. Became a roofer post hockey career... Why a goon?

Not a "Goon". That pejorative term doesnt exist in my lexicon... no, he had a healthy penalty minute count while with SealsFans club, so I just tossed him into the mix. All of em California/Oakland Seals / Cleveland Barons. Girard could play, as could any number of the selections I and others have listed. I really dislike that word.... now, you could say "Brashears' really Gooning it up out there" but that doesnt make him a full-time non-stop Goon. Big or not, tough, gritty guys, 4th liners, very useful players capable of scoring big goals, and in most cases Ive ever encountered serious Money Players. Provided of course their not complete psych jobs who totally lose it. Schultz for example, terrific actor. Could easily be "put down" provided you didnt buy into his Rabid Dog hysterics'. Stood their gawping, stunned while he gets in the first shots. Then yer really cooked. Baked Alaska.

pigpen65 04-26-2013 10:57 AM

I can only do for my own time, but the all goon HOF is easy for me

Probert
Kocur
Domi
Ray
Brashear

There are lots of honorable mentions, but those are the big time heavyweights from my POV. For anybody who has a problem with Ray, i'm a Sabres fan.


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