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-   -   Shedden, Trapp to be replaced? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=141446)

Leaf Army 05-01-2005 07:14 AM

Shedden, Trapp to be replaced?
 
LINK

We've already heard the speculation with Shedden. But I haven't heard DeBoer or Acton as potential replacements though.

As for replacing Trapp with Button well I just hope it doesn"t happen.

Volcanologist 05-01-2005 07:23 AM

Everything from Quinn's regime is being replaced....except Quinn. :sarcasm:

Patty Lee 05-01-2005 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
LINK

We've already heard the speculation with Shedden. But I haven't heard DeBoer or Acton as potential replacements though.

As for replacing Trapp with Button well I just hope it doesn"t happen.

Shedden certainly had a better team than showed up for the past 5 games, so I'm not sure I can too much if he is replaced.

I would like to see Trapp stick around though.

think-blue- 05-01-2005 09:01 AM

Don't see why Trapp would be replaced so early, you can't really measure the guy's success until a few years down the line...he's only been involved with a handful of drafts as it is.

Acton and Deboer are interesting as potential replacements for Shedden...I'd imagine whoever gets the job would be groomed to take over for Quinn when he (eventually) leaves, or at least that opportunity would be there for them.

Mess 05-01-2005 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
LINK

We've already heard the speculation with Shedden. But I haven't heard DeBoer or Acton as potential replacements though.

As for replacing Trapp with Button well I just hope it doesn"t happen.

I like the last lines

Quote:

"Regardless of who is behind the Marlies bench, the club should have a nucleus of respectable young talent.
Quote:


Among those under contract are defenceman Carlo Colaiacovo, goalie Mikael Tellqvist and forwards Matt Stajan and Clarke Wilm, who was St. John's best player in the series against Manitoba."

Its funny that the article portrays this as reasons DeBoer might take the job , but I would guess those would be the first 4 players summoned to the parent team when the lockout ends and the NHL starts up again ..

Also my 2 cents on the Barry Trapp replacement that it could also be mutual .. In the Kelowna papers they had an article quoting Garth Malarchuk (WHL & BCJHL scout for the Leafs) based out of Kelowna .. It suggested the Barry who is no spring chicken has hinted at retirement and really only promised the leafs 3-5 years after leaving Team Canada Junior program . He signed a 1 year contract extension last summer which is ending next month .. There have been some differences of opinion between Fergy and Trapp and the age difference between the two men pointed out as a more modern approach to scouting since Fergy is nearly 1/2 Trapp's age. Also the long days and travel are getting a bit much for Trapp as well at this stage of his life .

My own opinion is that it must be frustrating as a Director of amateur scouting when your bosses Quinn and Fergy dispose of Draft picks so lightly each year come trade deadline day .. If you are scouting and travelling and holding out hope for certain players and then all of a sudden a late 3rd round pick is your first pick overall, and you are asked to pick when the Top 90 rated players are off the board .. The last two drafts have decimated the number of picks the Leafs have had and even going into the 2005 draft your 2nd (Leetch) and 4th (Francis) are already gone again, and the 1st rounder is really BPA from a group of very well known players that don't require uncovering of Gems or heavy scouting, either way leaving you with 2 picks only in the top 100 players available .. I would be discouraged as well if I was him ..


Verbal Kint* 05-01-2005 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
My own opinion is that it must be frustrating as a Director of amateur scouting when your bosses Quinn and Fergy dispose of Draft picks so lightly each year come trade deadline day .. If you are scouting and travelling and holding out hope for certain players and then all of a sudden a late 3rd round pick is your first pick overall, and you are asked to pick when the Top 90 rated players are off the board .. The last two drafts have decimated the number of picks the Leafs have had and even going into the 2005 draft your 2nd (Leetch) and 4th (Francis) are already gone again, and the 1st rounder is really BPA from a group of very well known players that don't require uncovering of Gems or heavy scouting, either way leaving you with 2 picks only in the top 100 players available .. I would be discouraged as well if I was him ...

You know, the whole random Quinn and Fergy bashing is getting stale.

Volcanologist 05-01-2005 10:26 AM

The Leafs only traded 2 first rounders. It's not that much.

It's the Ceredas, Converys, and Jeff Wares we have to stay away from.

Much worse to use a 1st round pick and take a bust than to trade it for a great player.

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 10:36 AM

I believe that it was partly Trapp's ability that gave the Leafs the prospect depth to allow them to make the Leetch and Nolan trades.

cleduc 05-01-2005 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I believe that it was partly Trapp's ability that gave the Leafs the prospect depth to allow them to make the Leetch and Nolan trades.

Trapp is a fairly recent arrival. I think he arrvied in mid spring '02 but was more of an observer of that draft than a key decision maker. '03 & '04 drafts have not had as many picks.

The" depth" (average) of drafted players who were drafted prior to Trapp is what largely allowed the Nolan & Leetch deals. Boyes, Kondratiev & Immonen were all Quinn/Penny picks.

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleduc
Trapp is a fairly recent arrival. I think he arrvied in mid spring '02 but was more of an observer of that draft than a key decision maker. '03 & '04 drafts have not had as many picks.

The" depth" (average) of drafted players who were drafted prior to Trapp is what largely allowed the Nolan & Leetch deals. Boyes, Kondratiev & Immonen were all Quinn/Penny picks.

I did write "partly" reponsible. I wouldn't discount his effect on the first draft because even though he wasn't working for them until April I imagine that Trapp was still monitoring draft prospects before then.

Pappy 05-01-2005 01:03 PM

If Deboer takes the job he'll replace Quinn next year, they'll let Quinn coach one more year and give him a million dollar golden handshake, it would't be fair to bring in a new coach and saddle him with Quinn's team, most of those contracts will be finished and the new coach will get a fresh start with his guys and who ever Fergy signs after ridding the organization of Belfour and Nolan and giving Sundin the opportunity to stay on for about 3.5 for a couple of season's if Mats even wants to play after next year.

Mess 05-01-2005 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
You know, the whole random Quinn and Fergy bashing is getting stale.

That was not the intent MOP .. Sure they are the ones that traded the picks ..The focus here is being a scout for a team that is in WIN NOW mode at all cost, is not the best place for a scout to be .. The fruits of his labour are the things sacrificed at the expense of his hard work ..

If Barry Trapp was in a younger organization or a rebuilding team that not only has its own picks , but often is on the receiving end of more, that should be heaven from a scouting point of view, much like a kid in a candy store ..

Bashing was not the intent .. Wings, Av's and other teams scouts face the same situation year in and year out ..

Mess 05-01-2005 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I believe that it was partly Trapp's ability that gave the Leafs the prospect depth to allow them to make the Leetch and Nolan trades.

Despite the fact that Trapp wasn't even a member of the Leafs when Boyes or Kondratiev were drafted and had little to no influence in Immonen a late round pick after just being hired a good month before the 2002 draft. You are reaching and you know it ..

Trapp came from Team Canada Junior recruitment program .. His reponsibility was finding Canadian kids for the WJC, under 18 and other tourney's .. Euro's would not have been his forte as in Immonen for example as his scouting would be focussd on North American kids for these teams exclusively ..

Pappy 05-01-2005 01:09 PM

Will Greg Gilbert get a look see as Coach of the Marlies, he's an alumni but hopefully he gets rid of Penny he's the guy who's hired the people in the Hockey department, I mean Quinn's in Vancouver for the off season he let Penny do the hiring, I mean if your going to fire the coach and scouting director why would you keep the guy who hired them.

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
Despite the fact that Trapp wasn't even a member of the Leafs when Boyes or Kondratiev were drafted and had little to no influence in Immonen a late round pick after just being hired 1 month before the 2003 draft. You are reaching and you know it ..

Trapp came from Team Canada Junior recruitment program .. His reponsibility was finding Canadian kids for the WJC, under 18 and other tourney's .. Euro's would not have been his forte as in Immonen for example as his scouting would be focussd on North American kids for these teams exclusively ..

Trapp was around before those trades were made, I have him being hired in 2002 but that is just in my world.

Talk about reaching. I assume that the Canadian kids were playing Europeans teams in tournaments before they reached draft age and that Trapp wasn't keeping his eyes closed during those games. Trapp since being involved with the juniors for a long time would also have contacts all over the world, I would imagine.

Mess 05-01-2005 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Trapp was around before those trades were made, I have him being hired in 2002 but that is just in my world.

Talk about reaching. I assume that the Canadian kids were playing Europeans teams in tournaments before they reached draft age and that Trapp wasn't keeping his eyes closed during those games. Trapp since being involved with the juniors for a long time would also have contacts all over the world, I would imagine.

Barry Trapp was hired late April 2002 just a few months before the 2002 June draft ..

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/e/news/2002/nr036.html

"Trapp, in his duties as Director, Scouting was responsible for player evaluation and player selection for the National Junior Team Development and Selection Camps as well as the National Men's Under 18 Team and the Under 17 Program."

So you stretch that to scouting in Europe .. Sure there are opposing players in the tourney but not all kids drafted play in the countries national programs that you can go to a few tourney's and hope the player you draft are your opposition. If you believe scouting involves IF YOU ARE LUCKY seeing a player once or twice in a tourney then I guess that explains your conclusions.

Since the WJC and the under 18 team games are televised on TV .. I guess you can say Barry Trapp and I did the same amout of scouting, .. :biglaugh:

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
Barry Trapp was hired late April 2002 just a few months before the 2002 June draft ..

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/e/news/2002/nr036.html

"Trapp, in his duties as Director, Scouting was responsible for player evaluation and player selection for the National Junior Team Development and Selection Camps as well as the National Men's Under 18 Team and the Under 17 Program."

So you stretch that to scouting in Europe .. Sure there are opposing players in the tourney but not all kids drafted play in the countries national programs that you can go to a few tourney's and hope the player you draft are your opposition. If you believe scouting involves IF YOU ARE LUCKY seeing a player once or twice in a tourney then I guess that explains your conclusions.

Since the WJC and the under 18 team games are televised on TV .. I guess you can say Barry Trapp and I did the same amout of scouting, .. :biglaugh:

Only one actually knew what they were looking at, and he wasn't the one watching on TV.

Mess 05-01-2005 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Only one actually knew what they were looking at, and he wasn't the one watching on TV.

The Toronto Maple Leafs went into the 2003 Entry Draft looking to add size, skating ability and talent to the organization. Armed with only five selections, and without their first round pick (traded to San Jose in the Owen Nolan deal), Barry Trapp, the Leafs Director of Amateur Scouting, faced a difficult challenge in his first run at the draft table with the team. Trapp was determined to make each selection count, promising to only take players that the club’s scouts had a good read on.


darrylsittler27 05-01-2005 03:51 PM

Trapp did a good job
 
The leafs do shy away from first rounders as we pick so many busts.Trapp did a good job with what he was given,not much.Fergy sees an array of proven talent i.e nash,heatley,hossa coming available and could care a less about a player who may not help for years,if ever.Over the years the leafs have done better with their second rounders than their first rounders.Finishing where the leafs do in a 30 team league is a crap shoot anyway.Buying proven ufa's isnt.Fergy wins,Trapp moves on,knowing his talents this late in his career are going wasted.

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
The Toronto Maple Leafs went into the 2003 Entry Draft looking to add size, skating ability and talent to the organization. Armed with only five selections, and without their first round pick (traded to San Jose in the Owen Nolan deal), Barry Trapp, the Leafs Director of Amateur Scouting, faced a difficult challenge in his first run at the draft table with the team. Trapp was determined to make each selection count, promising to only take players that the club’s scouts had a good read on.

http://www.davidsnet.net/Hockey/articles/Draft_2003.htm

In addition to using opinion pieces by writers like Brooks and Panaccio as a basis for facts concerning the lockout you are now citing web sites such as "davidsnet.com", using a FrontPage template design, to back up other claims. C'mon, let's see what "bobsnet.com" has to say!

You crack me up.

Mess 05-01-2005 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK
In addition to using opinion pieces by writers like Brooks and Panaccio as a basis for facts concerning the lockout you are now citing web sites such as "davidsnet.com", using a FrontPage template design, to back up other claims. C'mon, let's see what "bobsnet.com" has to say!

You crack me up.

Okay wise guy .. I am still looking for the exact article by Barry Trapp that says he will be sitting at the table but will not have a part in the 2002 draft as that is Mike Penny's draft..

Here enjoy this in the meantime .. Get a load of the Quinn quote in picture 7 ..

"Decisions made on draft day come from the input of many on the Leafs staff including scouts and coaches, but GM Pat Quinn usually leaves the final decision in the hands of Mike Penny."

That way Quinn can take the credit for the turnaround in Draft Success, but blame Penny for the failure, he doens't even go up to the podeum to make the selection .. Notice how busy Quinn is working the phones as GM trying to improve his team :sarcasm:


This is from Mapleleafs.com hope that has enough credibility for you ..

http://www.mapleleafs.com/greatShotsBrowser.ml?photoNum=7&cid=867&contentTyp e=greatshots_gallery

Leaf Army 05-01-2005 05:09 PM

Personally I'm not in any hurry to see Shedden go. He's had some success in St. John's and I don't really see too much need for him to be replaced. I think he could have some upside as a coach- he reminds me a bit of John Totorella.

We've heard Greg Gilbert as a possible replacement and he'd be okay but I'm not crazy about him. I like Acton too but I think he's more suited to be an assistant coach then a head coach. Kinda like Mike Murphy was. I'd rather keep Shedden than bring in either of those two.

DeBoer would be interesting though. I don't know a ton about him but I know he's had success in Kitchener and that he's considered a great teacher. He's well respected and considered by some to be one of the best young coaching prospects out there. He's a younger coach and he'd bring a fresh and progressive look. He might be the few guys that I'd want to take a chance on because he has the chance to be a future coaching "star". I don't feel that way about Gilbert or Acton.

As for Trapp, I really like him. I realize he's getting older and probably doesn't even want to do the job much longer but I'd like hime to stick around a couple more years and at least see what he could do with a 1st round pick. I have a lot of faith in him. But even if he's not the Director anymore it would be nice if he could stay involved somehow because I think he's got a great mind for hockey.

Button's alright but I've never really liked him all that much. I liked his hiring becuase he's just playing a supporting role, but I'm not sure I like him as the Director of Amateur Scouting. Also kind of weird is that if Ferguson was thinking of him eventually to have this job, then why did he have him working in Pro scouting this past year?

Then again, the papers have been wrong before so this could all be nonsense. It wasn't long ago they said Gilbert was the man for the Marlies and now they didn't even mention him in this article. Plus they said before that Fergie wanted to replace Quinn with one of his "own people" but in reality he's already given him an extension. And he already gave Trapp an extension once when the papers said he probably wouldn't.

mooseOAK* 05-01-2005 05:39 PM

I think that the key thing for us should be how Shedden has done as far as developing prospects is concerned, not how the Baby Leafs did in the standings. That is for Ferguson and the rest of the Leaf braintrust to determine but i think that Shedden deserves another season.

Mike1 05-01-2005 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy
I mean if your going to fire the coach and scouting director why would you keep the guy who hired them.

Great point. If your going to put your own people in place why not go all the way through the organization. Why bring Quinn back? or Penny?

I think Shedden deserves the shot to be the Marlies head coach. People forget that they were not even picked to make the playoffs before the season began. They also battled through injuries & a horrible schedule to do it.

Mess 05-01-2005 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1
Great point. If your going to put your own people in place why not go all the way through the organization. Why bring Quinn back? or Penny?

I think Shedden deserves the shot to be the Marlies head coach. People forget that they were not even picked to make the playoffs before the season began. They also battled through injuries & a horrible schedule to do it.

Shedden had some high points but also some real low ones as well .. Fergy Jr is a very conservative guy and seldom speaks out on issues .. However Shedden calls out players in the media, and I am sure that bothers Fergy..

Shedden's line mixing is something that only he knows ..However in all my years I have never seen a coach style like that before ..

He did take a poor team and took them to the playoffs and that he deserves full credit for, his playoff preparation of his team and its effort seemed quite strange though. The descipline in the playoffs and all the penalties were annoying and not sure why that happened.

Here is my idea ... How about Joey Nieuwendyk and Gary Roberts as Coach and Assitant coach, fitness trainer etc of the Marlies ??


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