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-   -   Value of: Evander Kane/Zach Bogosian package (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1416723)

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:36 PM

Evander Kane/Zach Bogosian package
 
What are these guys worth in terms of value, specifically in terms of one player? Reading the other thread where everyone was saying the Jets would get ***** if they only got Patrick Kane back was like reading a foreign language I do not know so educate me. Crosby? Malkin? Stamkos?

Mr Misty 04-30-2013 02:41 PM

Yeah those three would probably be the kind of player you want for your young 30 goal scoring winger and your best defenseman who is also young. You need a player you can build a team around, and that isn't Patrick Kane.

JuicyJ* 04-30-2013 02:43 PM

Dougie Hamilton + Tyler Seguin

416Leafer 04-30-2013 02:45 PM

P. Kane doesnt have as much value as his stats indicate because he's a winger and because he's a one dimensional winger. As good as he is, he's not the type of player you build around if you had the choice.

If you were to rank all the players in the league in terms of who to build around, P. Kane wouldnt even be in the top 20. There are a dozen or more centres you would take ahead of him, and a similar number of defencemen. Not to mention goalies and a handful of other wingers.

So complaining about Jets fans wanting more for E. Kane/Bogosian, and then jumping to Crosby/Malkin/etc implies that P. Kane is one notch below those guys in terms of trade value, which he isnt. He's several notches.

Jack de la Hoya 04-30-2013 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64965391)
What are these guys worth in terms of value, specifically in terms of one player? Reading the other thread where everyone was saying the Jets would get ***** if they only got Patrick Kane back was like reading a foreign language I do not know so educate me. Crosby? Malkin? Stamkos?

I don't think there's any single, reasonably available player who could return those two players in a package. There's a handful of guys clearly worth more than them, but they aren't moving.

Everyone else would require a pretty significant set of at least two players coming back to the Jets, I'd think.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 416Leafer (Post 64965887)
So complaining about Jets fans wanting more for E. Kane/Bogosian, and then jumping to Crosby/Malkin/etc implies that P. Kane is one notch below those guys in terms of trade value, which he isnt. He's several notches.

I don't care nor want to even talk about Patrick Kane. I just want to guage value. Are you implying Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos isn't enough and they would need to add something going back to the Jets, or do the Jets add, or is the value dead on?

JuicyJ* 04-30-2013 02:49 PM

You really can't measure the value of guys who just aren't available. Mostly Crosby, but to a lesser extent a bunch of other big name players.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya (Post 64965957)
Everyone else would require a pretty significant set of at least two players coming back to the Jets, I'd think.

Let's hear some. I was more interested in knowing if a Crosby or Malkin type was enough coming back on their own but I'd also be interested in hearing about packages that the Jets would feel are fair value.

Huffer 04-30-2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Misty (Post 64965643)
Yeah those three would probably be the kind of player you want for your young 30 goal scoring winger and your best defenseman who is also young. You need a player you can build a team around, and that isn't Patrick Kane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya (Post 64965957)
I don't think there's any single, reasonably available player who could return those two players in a package. There's a handful of guys clearly worth more than them, but they aren't moving.

Everyone else would require a pretty significant set of at least two players coming back to the Jets, I'd think.

Pretty much.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuicyJ (Post 64966081)
You really can't measure the value of guys who just aren't available. Mostly Crosby, but to a lesser extent a bunch of other big name players.

Why not? What's wrong with saying, in terms of value, they should bring back Stamkos and the Tampa 2nd in the upcoming draft as an example, even if they wouldn't actually move Stamkos.

Huffer 04-30-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64966097)
Let's hear some. I was more interested in knowing if a Crosby or Malkin type was enough coming back on their own but I'd also be interested in hearing about packages that the Jets would feel are fair value.

Jets fans don't want to trade either of these guys.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huffer (Post 64966149)
Pretty much.

So they are worth more than any player in the league, including Crosby? Because you are leaving it open to interpretation by refusing to answer.

tbcwpg 04-30-2013 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64965391)
What are these guys worth in terms of value, specifically in terms of one player? Reading the other thread where everyone was saying the Jets would get ***** if they only got Patrick Kane back was like reading a foreign language I do not know so educate me. Crosby? Malkin? Stamkos?

You ignore the reason why Jets fans say it's not worth it to them. They've acknowledged Patrick Kane is the best player in the deal. It's not worth it to them because it creates two holes and only fills one of them.

If you didn't want to talk about Patrick Kane, you shouldn't have mentioned his name in the first post of this thread. You probably shouldn't have created some sort of "back me up guys" type of thread either, but it's here so we might as well discuss it.

If you take into account more than "who's the best player", but also how valuable the two pieces TOGETHER are to the Jets, you aren't going to see more than a handful of players that would be worth it for the Jets to deal both of them in a package. Patrick Kane is not one of those handful. If you just want to talk based on NHL 13 guidelines, I would suggest taking it to the NHL 13 board.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huffer (Post 64966241)
Jets fans don't want to trade either of these guys.

What in God's name does that have to do with anything? I just want to know the value. If you say, the value is Crosby, but we are not interested, fine, that is an answer.

JuicyJ* 04-30-2013 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64966193)
Why not? What's wrong with saying, in terms of value, they should bring back Stamkos and the Tampa 2nd in the upcoming draft as an example, even if they wouldn't actually move Stamkos.

If you enjoy living in a fantasy world, sure.

Realistically, Stammer wouldn't be traded for that. His value is too high.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbcwpg (Post 64966307)
You ignore the reason why Jets fans say it's not worth it to them. They've acknowledged Patrick Kane is the best player in the deal. It's not worth it to them because it creates two holes and only fills one of them.

If you didn't want to talk about Patrick Kane, you shouldn't have mentioned his name in the first post of this thread. You probably shouldn't have created some sort of "back me up guys" type of thread either, but it's here so we might as well discuss it.

If you take into account more than "who's the best player", but also how valuable the two pieces TOGETHER are to the Jets, you aren't going to see more than a handful of players that would be worth it for the Jets to deal both of them in a package. Patrick Kane is not one of those handful. If you just want to talk based on NHL 13 guidelines, I would suggest taking it to the NHL 13 board.

Then tell me in terms of two players. What other two players are about the same worth as the two Jets? Like I said, I don't understand the value but if you tell me two OTHER players, ANY two other players, I will understand exactly how you guys value E. Kane/Bogo. As it is, I am completely lost, but like I said, any other players in the entire league, abroad, minors, juniors, I'll get it. Thanks.

416Leafer 04-30-2013 03:03 PM

In terms of straight up value, ignoring who is actually available and who isnt... And considering that Winnipeg would probably want a centre... i would say something like Getzlaf.

A legitimate #1 C, but a guy who is only a borderline top 10 C in the league, not in the Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos/Datsyuk/Toews/Tavares/etc range. In saying that, Anaheim would never do that trade, because they dont have a replacement centre. Top line wingers (like P. Kane) get traded/hit free agency more often than proven top line centres for a reason, its because theyre considered more replaceable.

M. Richards as a comparison got B. Schenn and Simmonds.
Getzlaf > Richards
Kane > Simmonds
Bogosian > B. Schenn

almostawake 04-30-2013 03:07 PM

Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, and probably Tavares are the only (individual) players I could see the Jets moving that package for.

Edit: Sorry, forwards. There may be a defenceman or two that could be added to that list.

Jack de la Hoya 04-30-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64966873)
Then tell me in terms of two players. What other two players are about the same worth as the two Jets? Like I said, I don't understand the value but if you tell me two OTHER players, ANY two other players, I will understand exactly how you guys value E. Kane/Bogo. As it is, I am completely lost, but like I said, any other players in the entire league, abroad, minors, juniors, I'll get it. Thanks.

Well, I'll be the guinea pig: Pietrangelo and Tarasenko.

Pietrangelo > Bogosian
Tarasenko < Kane

(Honorable mention: Backstrom + Carlson / Alzner)

Obviously ignoring organizational need, contract status, and feasibility--but as a two-for-two swap in value, something like that, where the Jets take a clear downgrade on one of the two guys for an upgrade on the other).

EDIT: I sort of regret posting this already. I'm just trying to appease the OP.

Grind 04-30-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almostawake (Post 64967231)
Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, and probably Tavares are the only (individual) players I could see the Jets moving that package for.

Edit: Sorry, forwards. There may be a defenceman or two that could be added to that list.

yah that's pretty much where I see it. (call it crazy)

the thing is Jets fans, (realisitically or not) see Kane and Bogosian each as being able to be as good at their respective roles as patrick kane is at his(while maybe not quite as good, but extrodinarily close).

They see kane as having a ceiling of 70 point seasons with significant physicality, and they see bogo as top pairing norris vote (not necessarily winner) worthy. Obviously neither has achieved anything close to these things yet, and we can talk all day about potential, but that's how a lot of jets fans view these players.

so when they see two guys with (to them) apparent potential to be As good or very similar to patrick kane in "ability" but in more "desirable roles" (physical + offensive winger, two way d-man, versus a "pure scorer") the value seems very off to them.'

since they believe Kane and Bogo could both become top 10 players at their position (and probably value them as top 10 players in their respective roles currently) then yes, it would take a single top 3 type player to get both.

almostawake 04-30-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grind (Post 64968423)
yah that's pretty much where I see it. (call it crazy)

the thing is Jets fans, (realisitically or not) see Kane and Bogosian each as being able to be as good at their respective roles as patrick kane is at his(while maybe not quite as good, but extrodinarily close).

They see kane as having a ceiling of 70 point seasons with significant physicality, and they see bogo as top pairing norris vote (not necessarily winner) worthy. Obviously neither has achieved anything close to these things yet, and we can talk all day about potential, but that's how a lot of jets fans view these players.

so when they see two guys with (to them) apparent potential to be As good or very similar to patrick kane in "ability" but in more "desirable roles" (physical + offensive winger, two way d-man, versus a "pure scorer") the value seems very off to them.'

since they believe Kane and Bogo could both become top 10 players at their position (and probably value them as top 10 players in their respective roles currently) then yes, it would take a single top 3 type player to get both.

Additionally, when you look it as an actual move, what becomes pretty clear is that because the Jets lack depth already whomever they get in return needs to be a player that can a) carry a team on his back and b) single handedly make Winnipeg a credible destination for top UFAs.

Crosby clearly satisfies those two criteria right now, as does Malkin to a lesser extent. Stamkos and Tavares are the only two forwards I feel have the potential to be at that level in the near future.

Grind 04-30-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almostawake (Post 64969161)
Additionally, when you look it as an actual move, what becomes pretty clear is that because the Jets lack depth already whomever they get in return needs to be a player that can a) carry a team on his back and b) single handedly make Winnipeg a credible destination for top UFAs.

Crosby clearly satisfies those two criteria right now, as does Malkin to a lesser extent. Stamkos and Tavares are the only two forwards I feel have the potential to be at that level in the near future.

Right, but i was trying to avoid "team needs" etc and keep it clearly at a "value vaccum" sort of perspective to avoid clouding the issue.

I think the issue primarily boils down to is us jet fans generally value bogo and kane as top 10 players in their positions, even though they haven't done that yet.

digdug41982 04-30-2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grind (Post 64969313)
I think the issue primarily boils down to is us jet fans generally value bogo and kane as top 10 players in their positions, even though they haven't done that yet.

Well, that explains a lot and explains my confusion so thank you.

Grind 04-30-2013 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 (Post 64969419)
Well, that explains a lot and explains my confusion so thank you.

Yep.

when you watch them play they both appear to just be scratching the surface of their abilities, and they really do seem like two huge pieces of this franchise in the future. When we watch them so regularly, and get caught up in our inner-board conversations, i think many fans forget that

A) neither have reached this potential yet, even though it looks apparent to us and

B) No one else will have watched them as much to have come to the conclusion that they have that ability, as it hasn't directly translated into the boxcars/highlights/media coverage that we are all fairly guilty of valuing opposing teams players off of (due to necessity more then anything, i can barely keep up on jets games, how am i supposed to watch any other team with regularity?)

moose3322 04-30-2013 04:12 PM

to throw another pair of similar valued players: hossa + seabrook

not saying either jet player is on the same level currently, but that is about the same value people will see when you are dealing with 20/21 year olds who have already shown a lot and are improving.

if you really want to imagine why we would say no to the trade, imagine this: your chicago team as a shallower version of itself (to match the current jets) eg. no toews, kane, or hjalmarsson on the team.

Would you then trade hossa and seabrook away to get hall/giroux/st.louis at his age? Probably no, because though you may get an upgrade, its not enough of one to justify the switch and creating a hole.


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