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-   -   Do We Need a More Defensive System? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1416981)

Four Boilermakers 04-30-2013 07:45 PM

Do We Need a More Defensive System?
 
What do you guys think about the kind of system that we have been using under Laviolette for the past 4 seasons? Lavy notoriously employs a run-and-gun system that (usually) promotes high offensive output, but leaves our defense and goaltenders vulnerable. While this system is undoubtedly exciting, I have begun to think that it doesn't very well suit our current roster. Bryzgalov, for one, excelled in Phoenix under Tippett's more defensive system, but has been a fish out of water here in Philadelphia.

In his final press conference, Lavy said that this year the only change he made to his system was to add "an additional layer of defense" to our coverage in our own zone. It was pretty clear that this didn't help prevent very many goals; and it may have even contributed to our difficulties scoring (though of course losing JVR and Jagr had plenty to do with that as well).

Given the shortage of talent on defense and our obvious troubles keeping the puck out of our own net, do you think we need to begin using a more defensive system? If so, is Peter Laviolette the right man for employing a new system? So what do you think we should and/or will do?

lancer247 04-30-2013 08:10 PM

i think you can play the system lavy wants if you have the dman to get the puck up ice to start the transition. Doesn't CHI play a similar style but they have dmen better suited to that style?

Kimo, Healthy Mez, and Gus or an upgrade for that #6 spot would probably make a difference. If Grossman is their #5 or #6 dman next season then that is a good sign for the team. I like Grossman for what he is and for match ups with certain lines but ideally he should be a 3rd pairing dman.

Mgkibbles 04-30-2013 08:15 PM

No, judging by our numbers we need a better goalie.

FlyingPhilly 04-30-2013 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96 (Post 64983533)
What do you guys think about the kind of system that we have been using under Laviolette for the past 4 seasons? Lavy notoriously employs a run-and-gun system that (usually) promotes high offensive output, but leaves our defense and goaltenders vulnerable. While this system is undoubtedly exciting, I have begun to think that it doesn't very well suit our current roster. Bryzgalov, for one, excelled in Phoenix under Tippett's more defensive system, but has been a fish out of water here in Philadelphia.

In his final press conference, Lavy said that this year the only change he made to his system was to add "an additional layer of defense" to our coverage in our own zone. It was pretty clear that this didn't help prevent very many goals; and it may have even contributed to our difficulties scoring (though of course losing JVR and Jagr had plenty to do with that as well).

Given the shortage of talent on defense and our obvious troubles keeping the puck out of our own net, do you think we need to begin using a more defensive system? If so, is Peter Laviolette the right man for employing a new system? So what do you think we should and/or will do?

Right now, the forwards on the roster are geared to play in an up-tempo system like Lavi's. The Flyers d-men don't really match to Lavi's system, yes I agree. One of the reasons for that is because Holmgren brought in a lot of defensive d-man who can't skate to help out Bryz. That hasn't really worked out to what everyone has hoped. If the Flyers have to adjust their playing style, by changing coaches or getting different players, for a goalie they brought in and paid $51M for, that is an indictment on management and the goalie. The goalie isn't elite or good in that case, not that I think Bryz is an elite goalie anyway. Also, management didn't do their due diligence when bringing said goalie in. If the Flyers were to adopt a more defensive system then it would be better to also bring in players who fit that system better and also a more defensive coach.

Also, I am pretty sure that any goalie can succeed in Tippett's system. Look at Mike Smith.

CSKA1974 04-30-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgkibbles (Post 64986119)
No, judging by our numbers we need a better goalie.

Yes, we do. And I wish we had.

However, your analyses lacks depth.

It does not explain a constant impotence against Rangers and Devils.
It does not explain flat starts or inability to play for 60 minutes.
It does not explain inability to clear defencive zones for brutally long period of times thus spending entire shift in D zone.
It does not explain lack of crativity on offence, frequently having all 3 forwards below the goal line.
It does not explain sloppy shift changes.
It does not explain ice time management for underperforming players.
It does not explain blown defencive assignments.

laundryman 04-30-2013 10:38 PM

Not a more defensive system as much as a less aggressive system. We have a group of very talented forwards so should set them up to score as much as we can. But, everyone needs to be more defensively responsible.

CSKA1974 04-30-2013 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laundryman (Post 65001645)
Not a more defensive system as much as a less aggressive system. We have a group of very talented forwards so should set them up to score as much as we can. But, everyone needs to be more defensively responsible.

Agreed. Once they started playing more defencively responsible, the started winning the games (even against the opponents that traditionally were hard to beat).

FreshPerspective 04-30-2013 10:52 PM

An unnamed Flyers source in one of the articles I read today supposedly said they will focus on the D and getting more size. Let's hope it includes a combo of size AND skating and not just some stationary zeppelin types like Hatcher and Rathje....

Beef Invictus 04-30-2013 10:53 PM

If they start rebuilding the team around Bryzgalov without firing Lavi we're just going to waste another year.

FreshPerspective 04-30-2013 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 65003183)
If they start rebuilding the team around Bryzgalov without firing Lavi we're just going to waste another year.

I'm pretty certain they are making a grave mistake doubling down on Lavi and Bryz.......I hope I'm wrong.

Beef Invictus 04-30-2013 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt (Post 65004149)
I'm pretty certain they are making a grave mistake doubling down on Lavi and Bryz.......I hope I'm wrong.

Nah, I think you're right.

Homer doesn't rebuild, he renovates; but if they push this renovation they're going to knock out a load bearing beam and the house is coming down.

achdumeingute 04-30-2013 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSKA1974 (Post 64996983)
Yes, we do. And I wish we had.

However, your analyses lacks depth.

It does not explain a constant impotence against Rangers and Devils.
It does not explain flat starts or inability to play for 60 minutes.
It does not explain inability to clear defencive zones for brutally long period of times thus spending entire shift in D zone.
It does not explain lack of crativity on offence, frequently having all 3 forwards below the goal line.
It does not explain sloppy shift changes.
It does not explain ice time management for underperforming players.
It does not explain blown defencive assignments.

You sir, are my hero (for today).

There is no scapegoat....the entire team has flaws.

And on one hand, I'm not TOO mad about this, because quite a few young players were put in key situations and were inconsistent, as young guys tend to be.

sobrien 05-01-2013 12:00 AM

If you want Bryz to get closer to earning his contract value, then yes.

BillDineen 05-01-2013 01:43 AM

In response to getting dominated by the Devils and seeing the Kings D in the playoffs Homer got a bunch of RHD and they decided to implement fixes to solve the Devils system. That failed. Further, the Devils did not even make the playoffs this year, so just focusing on them only does not make sense.

Trying to reinvent the wheel every year is not going to work either. The only thing worse would be changing personnel to try and help Bryz.

TheLegendkiller 05-01-2013 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillDineen (Post 65012039)
In response to getting dominated by the Devils and seeing the Kings D in the playoffs Homer got a bunch of RHD and they decided to implement fixes to solve the Devils system. That failed. Further, the Devils did not even make the playoffs this year, so just focusing on them only does not make sense.

Trying to reinvent the wheel every year is not going to work either. The only thing worse would be changing personnel to try and help Bryz.

Well having some right-handed dmen gives them more options for trying to get it out of the zone so the rationale makes sense. Plus you should have dmen that are a mix of handedness. And stop thinking that the Flyers are the only team to do this after losing in the playoffs. ALL teams do this in some way.

BillDineen 05-01-2013 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller (Post 65012923)
Well having some right-handed dmen gives them more options for trying to get it out of the zone so the rationale makes sense. Plus you should have dmen that are a mix of handedness. And stop thinking that the Flyers are the only team to do this after losing in the playoffs. ALL teams do this in some way.

I don't believe that at all. I also think that it does not make sense to overreact. The main reason LA won the cup was their goalie go on a hot streak stood on his head.

EDIT: Further, the Flyers didn't even do it for years, insisting that average goaltending could win you the cup. That changed with the insistence of Snider.

Teams do react, like Vancouver trading for Kassian after losing to the Bruins, but teams like the Devils, Wings and Pens do not change on a whim.

FlyingPhilly 05-01-2013 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobrien (Post 65008089)
If you want Bryz to get closer to earning his contract value, then yes.

I look at this the other way. If the team has to change to make Bryz good and thus "earning his contract value or close to it" then he isn't worth that contract value in any way shape or form.

Mgkibbles 05-01-2013 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSKA1974 (Post 64996983)
Yes, we do. And I wish we had.

However, your analyses lacks depth.

It does not explain a constant impotence against Rangers and Devils.
It does not explain flat starts or inability to play for 60 minutes.
It does not explain inability to clear defencive zones for brutally long period of times thus spending entire shift in D zone.
It does not explain lack of crativity on offence, frequently having all 3 forwards below the goal line.
It does not explain sloppy shift changes.
It does not explain ice time management for underperforming players.
It does not explain blown defencive assignments.

Other than our lack of success against the Rangers and Devils, every team deals with all those issues. Did you see how awful the Kings were in their own zone last night? Completely outworked by the Blues, but Quick bailed them out, until Quick had a tape to tape pass to Steen behind the net.

A goalie with Bryz's contract needs to be a mistake eraser, and he's obviously not. That's all I'll say to avoid this becoming another goaltending thread.

FreshPerspective 05-01-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgkibbles (Post 65017987)
A goalie with Bryz's contract needs to be a mistake eraser, and he's obviously not. That's all I'll say to avoid this becoming another goaltending thread.

Yup..that is all you have to say. It summarizes Bryz's performance thus far with the Flyers. He is not bad just average and thus his salary is unjustifiable.

Flyers are just trying to save face and coin with him as much as possible but he is what he is. I can't see him being a cup goaltender..he's too mercurial. Bryz is a mistake and he needs to be erased...

Bob on the other hand is a competitor and has massive talent and skill and is young. He has a good chance in his career to be like the Bulin wall in his prime and erase enough mistakes for his team to carry them in the playoffs and maybe even a cup. Baffling how we threw him to the wolves and then wrote him off simply b/c he regressed as a backup which was natural given all the adjustments he already had to make in the NHL and in an entirely new culture yet the guy was always resolute in his interviews while Bryz blames the media and points fingers at them...

Rolex 05-01-2013 10:12 AM

I can't waste any energy on Bobrovsky any more. I was happy when he was signed and realized that he was a project, as are most Euros when they come over here and play on the smaller ice. It is a shame that the organization gave up on him but he's gone now and there is nothing that can be done about that. Hopefully, Mason will make Columbus wonder of they let him get away too cheaply.
However, there is something that can be done about Bryzgalov. The organization needs to sit down and honestly evaluate his performance with its advantages and disadvantages and determine if he is worth the contract that he has. IMO, he's not worth it. He was brought in here to be a game changer and is paid accordingly. His inability to handle the puck causes problems with the system that the Flyers want to play. It puts too much pressure on the defensemen. Then there are the locker room and off ice issues with the guy. Too many -s and not enough +s. Its time to move on while the amnesty opportunity is there.

CSKA1974 05-01-2013 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolex (Post 65021535)
I can't waste any energy on Bobrovsky any more. I was happy when he was signed and realized that he was a project, as are most Euros when they come over here and play on the smaller ice. It is a shame that the organization gave up on him but he's gone now and there is nothing that can be done about that. Hopefully, Mason will make Columbus wonder of they let him get away too cheaply.
However, there is something that can be done about Bryzgalov. The organization needs to sit down and honestly evaluate his performance with its advantages and disadvantages and determine if he is worth the contract that he has. IMO, he's not worth it. He was brought in here to be a game changer and is paid accordingly. His inability to handle the puck causes problems with the system that the Flyers want to play. It puts too much pressure on the defensemen. Then there are the locker room and off ice issues with the guy. Too many -s and not enough +s. Its time to move on while the amnesty opportunity is there.

I agree with that, but if the evaluation of the current Flyers system leads ONLY to a golaie change, then all of us are going to have another disapointed season.

First of all, there is no "eraser" available for grabs; secondly, even "eraser" such as Lundquist would probably strugle with the current team sloppiness.

I understand that Bryz has underperformed, but he is not a culprit of this or last year failure. No stone should left unturned in the perpromance assessment of this team.

chimrichalds18 05-01-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 65004303)
Nah, I think you're right.

Homer doesn't rebuild, he renovates; but if they push this renovation they're going to knock out a load bearing beam and the house is coming down.

Very, very well said. I'm very scared of just how big that load-bearing beam is.

I think there's going to be an edict from on high that the Defense needs to be fixed at all costs. In the end, though, we really don't have a plan. Everything's just dependent on other teams and their willingness to pay their RFAs. That's what you get when you have a gambler for a GM.

FreshPerspective 05-01-2013 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 (Post 65023099)
Very, very well said. I'm very scared of just how big that load-bearing beam is.

I think there's going to be an edict from on high that the Defense needs to be fixed at all costs. In the end, though, we really don't have a plan. Everything's just dependent on other teams and their willingness to pay their RFAs. That's what you get when you have a gambler for a GM.

That is the thing with Holmgren...he doesn't have a measured approach to how he manages the team. He swings for the fences and sometimes it works out and in other instances like this season, particularly with the miscalc on Suter and Parise (not necessarily Weber), it hurt the team b/c he had to be reactive with filling in glaring holes. This is why he is not firing Lavi because he bears a huge responsibility with how this team underachieved. The team and the coach didn't help so really what we saw was a team effort in failure (top down)! Only a few redeeming positives like Jake and Luke softened the misery. Playing above .500 when it mattered least was also a bit insulting to the fans although as professionals you can't condone losing...

I personally think Holmgren is going after Pietrangelo....he is going to engage in high stakes poker again but this time he better have a better plan B if it doesn't happen...

As far as the whole Bob thing....the reason I keep bringing it up is because this team has no effin clue how to address the goaltending properly. They didn't do their due dilligence with assessing if Bryz was a fit for this team and system and then when they actually have a game changing prospect in their hands they handle it irrationally and stubbornly by trying to force a round pegin a square hole with Bryz.

Like Einstein said "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

I sometimes wonder if Holmgren is truly a dry drunk b/c he definitely exhibits troubling signs associated with a gambling personality disorder...

dawkins121 05-01-2013 11:58 AM

I think that Lavi was trying to implement a more defense oriented system this year but without training camp and all the injuries it backfired on them and nobody was quite sure what they were doing (hence the terrible 5 on 5 numbers). They'll probably try to keep pushing it with a full training camp and more practices.

As far as goalies go, I hate to say it but unless an opportunity to allocate a large chunk of cap space to a (worthwile) puck moving defenseman opens up, I think our best option might be to platoon Bryz and Mason until next summer. It's one thing to put Bryz's cap space to a better use but if there aren't really any great options than I would rather keep him for one more year than amnesty him just for the sake of getting rid of him. Just looking at this year's crop of UFA goalies there aren't really any guys I would feel comfortable signing in the $1.5-$3.5 mill range to platoon with Mason and the last thing this team needs is to throw money at someone like Backstrom or Mike Smith.

TheLegendkiller 05-01-2013 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillDineen (Post 65013185)
I don't believe that at all. I also think that it does not make sense to overreact. The main reason LA won the cup was their goalie go on a hot streak stood on his head.

EDIT: Further, the Flyers didn't even do it for years, insisting that average goaltending could win you the cup. That changed with the insistence of Snider.

Teams do react, like Vancouver trading for Kassian after losing to the Bruins, but teams like the Devils, Wings and Pens do not change on a whim.

The Pens changed after their embarrassing playoff performance. The Bruins modified after their collapse in 2010. The Rangers changed after the Devils series. The Blues changed after the Kings series last year. There are tons of examples.


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