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-   -   Was Messier (6 Cups) the Greatest Oiler v. #99? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=142067)

chooch* 05-05-2005 09:02 PM

Was Messier (6 Cups) the Greatest Oiler v. #99?
 
Messier won 5 Cups with the Oilers and 1 almost singlehandedly in legendary style with the Rangers. He was the greatest leader of the past 25 years. Like Lafleur (5 Cups) before him, he never let the Oilers lose, never hung out at centre collecting meaningless points and goals.

The first time the Oilers won the Cup he was the playoff MVP and then in 90, after Coffey and Gretzky were cast adrift as expendables, he won the Cup again.

He then took the hapless Rangers and rather than winning an Art Ross with a minus 25 took them to the holy grail with fearsome 2 way play. He knew that scoring 200 points but giving up 130 goals was not the kind of play that won you respect amongst the Rockets and Gordies and Jeans and Guys, and Bobby's. They didnt play that way and neither did no.11.

For him the only statistic was the only one that really counted; the only reason hockey is played - Number of Cups. And he won more then 99.

He was the most fearsome player on the Oilers and the only one Sather and Pockingnton were reluctant to trade or allow to leave. Others like Coffey and Gretzky were expendable.

His influence on the game is as great as Orr's and Lafleurs - present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone.

He was the greatest player on the Oiler dynasty. And like Lafleur, the proud lion, no one had to protect Messier and thats the way he wanted it He fought his own battles. He was a Man respected by friend and foe, unlike his higher scoring teammate.

And Messier never rang up the score late in the game but still was a 50 goal scorer and never whooped it up against the likes of loser goalies like Liut etc. like 99 did.

And when his team needed him most like in the "guaranteed win game", he didnt let them down just as the great Lafleur didnt let his teamdown in the too many men game.

Leaf Lander 05-05-2005 09:06 PM

I didnt read your post initially however;
messier was a very good player for a long time.
Greztky was the greatest player for 15 straight yrs
Messier was lucky if he was top 5

Greatest Oiler ever = Gretzky

The oilers were the team they were because they had that great offensive squad of players which relied upon the perpetual scoring line that had kurri and gretzky on it!

Quote:

Gretzky were cast adrift as expendables
They couldnt afford Gretzxky he was the bets player in the game

Edmonton saw a 27 yr old Gretzky as a aging commodity

Messier wasa cheaper replacement as the # 1 center plus he was a good talent at least half as good as gretzky.

A trade for Gretzky would bring in younger or cheaper players etc Jimmy Carson, Martin Gelinas, Los Angeles' 1st round choices in 1989 (later traded to New Jersey - New Jersey selected Jason Miller), 1991 (Martin Rucinsky) and 1993 (Nick Stajduhar)

Murphy 05-05-2005 09:08 PM

No, he wasn't the greatest Oiler, probably as close as you could get though.

He was better than Lafleur though.

chooch* 05-05-2005 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
i didnt read your post messier was a very good player for a long time greztky was the greatest player for 15 straight yrs Messier was lucky if he was top 5

Greatest Oiler ever = Gretzky

The oilers were the team they were cause they had the offensive lead team that was propelled by the perpetual scoring line that had kurri and gretzky on it!

yeah dont worry the leafs will win next year. :biglaugh:

chooch* 05-05-2005 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy2
No, he wasn't the greatest Oiler, probably as close as you could get though.

He was better than Lafleur though.

Define "better" or are you just reading stats like Ombongo.

gr8haluschak 05-05-2005 09:18 PM

Why are you using stuff about him as a Ranger if you are asking who was a better Oiler ?

Leaf Lander 05-05-2005 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chooch
yeah dont worry the leafs will win next year. :biglaugh:


They will win the cup soon
have you seen the soon to be built
Maple Leafs Square ?



Maple Leafs Square

norrisnick 05-05-2005 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
Why are you using stuff about him as a Ranger if you are asking who was a better Oiler ?

Paintchips are tasty.

VanIslander 05-05-2005 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chooch
present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone.

Yzerman looked up to Trottier the most, has said so, and took his number.

Your argument reads like the blind devotion of a true fan. But I almost share your point.

Messier was as valuable as Gretzky to the Oiler dynasty albeit less hyped. One of the Top10 centres of all-time and arguably Top5. And one of the best leaders, though that label is notoriously difficult to assess and compare.

That said, I am of the belief that Messier is as complete a player as there ever was, certainly in the last quarter century. He could do everything.

But there's no need to take away esteem from the less complete but brighter light in the stratospheric offensive skills of Gretzky (and Mario).

reckoning 05-05-2005 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander
Yzerman looked up to Trottier the most, has said so, and took his number.

Just to warn you; he`ll reply that Yzerman didn`t mean it, but only said that to "curry favour" with Trottier.

Habsfan 32 05-05-2005 09:57 PM

I think Gretzky is the greatest Oilers. Messier is 2nd with Fuhr behind him.

VanIslander 05-05-2005 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsfan 32
I think Gretzky is the greatest Oilers. Messier is 2nd with Fuhr behind him.

Fuhr? What, by giving up four goals a game? He did some good sometimes but Tikkanen and Kurri have been the difference in several playoff series.

1. Gretzky
1A. Messier
2. Tikkanen
2A. Kurri
3. Fuhr

IMO.

Ogopogo* 05-05-2005 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chooch
Messier won 5 Cups with the Oilers and 1 almost singlehandedly in legendary style with the Rangers. He was the greatest leader of the past 25 years. Like Lafleur (5 Cups) before him, he never let the Oilers lose, never hung out at centre collecting meaningless points and goals.

The first time the Oilers won the Cup he was the playoff MVP and then in 90, after Coffey and Gretzky were cast adrift as expendables, he won the Cup again.

He then took the hapless Rangers and rather than winning an Art Ross with a minus 25 took them to the holy grail with fearsome 2 way play. He knew that scoring 200 points but giving up 130 goals was not the kind of play that won you respect amongst the Rockets and Gordies and Jeans and Guys, and Bobby's. They didnt play that way and neither did no.11.

For him the only statistic was the only one that really counted; the only reason hockey is played - Number of Cups. And he won more then 99.

He was the most fearsome player on the Oilers and the only one Sather and Pockingnton were reluctant to trade or allow to leave. Others like Coffey and Gretzky were expendable.

His influence on the game is as great as Orr's and Lafleurs - present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone.

He was the greatest player on the Oiler dynasty. And like Lafleur, the proud lion, no one had to protect Messier and thats the way he wanted it He fought his own battles. He was a Man respected by friend and foe, unlike his higher scoring teammate.

And Messier never rang up the score late in the game but still was a 50 goal scorer and never whooped it up against the likes of loser goalies like Liut etc. like 99 did.

And when his team needed him most like in the "guaranteed win game", he didnt let them down just as the great Lafleur didnt let his teamdown in the too many men game.

Is chooch a nutjob that will do anything to try to convince himself that Wayne is not the greatest player of all time? YES

People are laughing at your foolish attacks on "The Great One". Face it. The Habs did not have the greatest player of all time. Or the second or even the third. Accept it and move on.

VanIslander 05-05-2005 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo
The Habs did not have the greatest player of all time. Or the second or even the third. Accept it and move on.

I'd even say Messier was better than any Hab (but not better than Gretzky).

And some of my personal favourite all-time players were on the Canadiens.

gr8haluschak 05-05-2005 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander
Fuhr? What, by giving up four goals a game? He did some good sometimes but Tikkanen and Kurri have been the difference in several playoff series.

1. Gretzky
1A. Messier
2. Tikkanen
2A. Kurri
3. Fuhr

IMO.


Did you watch the Oilers - well obviously not with such a comment, yeah he let in 4 goals, with very little defense infront of him, but there was no way he lets in the winning goal in the big games. To put Esa ahead of Fuhr that is a good one even Kurri is pushing it ahead of Fuhr.

Ogopogo* 05-05-2005 10:16 PM

I remember when I was a young Gretzky fan and there would be those kids that were jealous of him so they hated him. Gretzky's life was nearly perfect. He was the greatest hockey player in the world on the greatest team in the world, he was a media darling and virtually never said anything that was not complimentary about anyone. He broke all the records by a wide margin.

Jealous kids hated him for it.

chooch is one of those kids.

God Bless Canada 05-05-2005 10:19 PM

Yet more trolling (by both sides) on what used to be the best part of this site. Gretzky's the best Oiler of all time, period. He's the best offensive player in league history, period. He did things in terms of puckhandling, hockey sense, passing and anticipation that nobody else could, or ever will. He saw and thought the games at unprecedented levels.

And oh yeah, Lafleur was a much better player than Messier. Third best RW ever.

And for once, Ogopogo, we agree. Some people are just jealous. And Gretzky has a darn attractive wife.

KOVALEV10* 05-05-2005 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander
I'd even say Messier was better than any Hab (but not better than Gretzky).

And some of my personal favourite all-time players were on the Canadiens.

Yet another stupid statement. Messier wasnt better then any hab. Rocket, Beliveau and Lafleur were better!

As for this thread, we all know that offensively Wayne was better then Mark. But who was more valuable to the team? Who was the leader? Who was their most complete player? Oh and without Wayne Edmonton still won a cup but without Mark they didn't.

Crosbyfan 05-05-2005 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander
I'd even say Messier was better than any Hab (but not better than Gretzky).

And some of my personal favourite all-time players were on the Canadiens.

Beliveau was better at offence, better at defence, and a better leader.

KOVALEV10* 05-05-2005 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Beliveau was better at offence, better at defence, and a better leader.

That's very true. Rocket and Guy were better at offense too.

Murphy 05-05-2005 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chooch
Define "better" or are you just reading stats like Ombongo.

No thanks, I've wasted enough time reading your first post as it is.

Your attempts at debunking Gretzky were kind of funny at first. Now not so much........... :shakehead

arrbez 05-05-2005 11:57 PM

Gretzky eats babies.

Think about it, people. He's never stated that he doesn't eat babies. Seems suspicious to me.

KOVALEV10* 05-06-2005 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez
Gretzky eats babies.

Think about it, people. He's never stated that he doesn't eat babies. Seems suspicious to me.

At least he's no Michael Jackson ;)

hfboardsuser 05-06-2005 01:23 AM

K10, I think what would sway the opinion of the masses voting in this poll would be a montage of Lafleur's greatest plays.

Frightened Inmate #2 05-06-2005 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg
K10, I think what would sway the opinion of the masses voting in this poll would be a montage of Lafleur's greatest plays.

And that could be what compared to a montage of Gretzkys greatest plays? I mean come on Matt Cooke and Daniel Sedin have also had some nice goals, and nice plays. Does that make them in the same stratosphere as Gretzky or Lemieux?


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