HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   The History of Hockey (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126)
-   -   Could the Habs have gotten anything for Lafleur? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1421033)

Mats86 05-05-2013 06:11 AM

Could the Habs have gotten anything for Lafleur?
 
When he retired first time back in '84, there were rumours Montreal should trade Lafleur. If they did what could they have received? He was having a terrible season...would a Western club traded anything much for him. A first round pick? Would the Habs let him go for that?

gonzo11 05-06-2013 07:49 PM

I believe, I could be wrong, the Guy was so pissed at the Canadians over something he told people that if they traded him he would not report

Killion 05-06-2013 08:23 PM

He was seriously pissed with Lemaire & his "system", watching his ice-time decline, low points, some self doubt creeping in but no, he didnt want to retire and was made to feel forced into it. He'd requested a trade of Savard, and apparently Bowman in Buffalo was willing, straight up for Perrault but Serge Savard balked, figuring he'd be lynched if he did that, that if he traded him at all, doomed. Additionally rumours swirled that Lafleur (completely unfounded) had developed a drug problem; that he was playing "injured"; all kinds of stuff. Sure, his production had slowed some over the preceding 3 seasons but he was still putting up great numbers, life yet left in the legs, hands, heart & head. So sure, the Habs couldve got Gilbert Perrault for Lafleur, likely any other number of Stars from whomever wherever. But Savard wouldnt trade him, Lemaire wouldnt let him play the way he wanted to play nor give him the minutes to do so, up a boxed canyon.

thom 05-06-2013 09:05 PM

Very well said may I just say the perrault trade would have been in 82.A lot of stories and rumours written about Lafleur.In 84 Lafleur retired at 32 yrs old in 85 rumours were Lafleur was given a short time to talk to gm's from La and Pittsburg story goes that Savard or some lawyer contacted the gm's and told them not to sign Lafleur.When Lafleur was in a dead end Savard decided to put him on canadians list in hence Lafleur could not sign a team of his chosing.In 88 Lafleur made a come back and had 45 pits in 67 games despite a broken jaw.Esposito was fired and Lafleur went to Quebec despipe getting a 1 million dollar offer from La Kings.Lafleur was 2nd leading scorer had 34 pts in 39 games despite a broken foot.In his final year the season was a right off despite that Bob Gainey asked him to play for his team.

Mats86 05-07-2013 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 65471393)
Very well said may I just say the perrault trade would have been in 82.A lot of stories and rumours written about Lafleur.In 84 Lafleur retired at 32 yrs old in 85 rumours were Lafleur was given a short time to talk to gm's from La and Pittsburg story goes that Savard or some lawyer contacted the gm's and told them not to sign Lafleur.When Lafleur was in a dead end Savard decided to put him on canadians list in hence Lafleur could not sign a team of his chosing.In 88 Lafleur made a come back and had 45 pits in 67 games despite a broken jaw.Esposito was fired and Lafleur went to Quebec despipe getting a 1 million dollar offer from La Kings.Lafleur was 2nd leading scorer had 34 pts in 39 games despite a broken foot.In his final year the season was a right off despite that Bob Gainey asked him to play for his team.

Lot of info in last 2 posts I didn't know. Perrault trade in '84 would have been interesting! In '82 I can see Savard backing out as Lafleur still playing well then.

Canadiens1958 05-07-2013 05:58 AM

Ronald Corey
 
Ronald Corey would not trade Lafleur.

Psycho Papa Joe 05-07-2013 06:11 AM

Recall a rumour of the Jets offering a 1st and Savard refusing to deal him and letting him retire instead.

Rob 05-07-2013 08:20 AM

Why didn't he go back with the Habs when he came out of retirement?

Psycho Papa Joe 05-07-2013 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob (Post 65494783)
Why didn't he go back with the Habs when he came out of retirement?

Serge Savard was still GM.

HabsByTheBay 05-07-2013 12:59 PM

I never knew the Senator made so many enemies as GM. The other day, Marek vs Wyshynski basically confirmed that ol' Serge is one of the main movers behind the HHOF's refusal to induct Pat Burns.

double5son10 05-07-2013 01:16 PM

I've heard the Lafleur for Perrault rumor, but also think that was in '82. I know Glen Sather has spoken of trying to land Lafleur in '84 and the Habs wouldn't listen. Poor asset management by Montreal. Whole thing stinks of Ronald Corey.

HabsByTheBay 05-07-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by double5son10 (Post 65509855)
I've heard the Lafleur for Perrault rumor, but also think that was in '82. I know Glen Sather has spoken of trying to land Lafleur in '84 and the Habs wouldn't listen. Poor asset management by Montreal. Whole thing stinks of Ronald Corey.

Me likey your username and avatar.

Killion 05-07-2013 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 65492481)
Ronald Corey would not trade Lafleur.

Basically Savard may have been willing but over-ruled?
To this day in most accounts Serge takes the rap for it.
What was Coreys problem? Did he fear a fan backlash?

Canadiens1958 05-07-2013 03:43 PM

Nordiques
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 65516985)
Basically Savard may have been willing but over-ruled?
To this day in most accounts Serge takes the rap for it.
What was Coreys problem? Did he fear a fan backlash?

Savard could have made a reasonable hockey trade with any one of 19 of the 21 NHL teams but he could not control the ultimate feared destination --> the Nordiques. Mid eighties the Canadiens and Nordiques were locked in a major marketing battle for the province of Quebec.

Basic problem was the fear that one of the 19 teams would then flip Lafleur to the Nordiques for more than the Canadiens had received giving the Nordiques an enormous talent and marketing advantage.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...laflegu01.html

Note that Guy Lafleur was named to the HHOF in 1988 and entered as a Canadien. Then he joined the Rangers for one season then the Nordiques for two seasons when they were no longer a factor in the province of Quebec.

Killion 05-07-2013 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 65518349)
Basic problem was the fear that one of the 19 teams would then flip Lafleur to the Nordiques for more than the Canadiens had received giving the Nordiques an enormous talent and marketing advantage.

Ahhhh. Interesting. I'd not considered that.

LeBlondeDemon10 05-07-2013 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 65518349)
Basic problem was the fear that one of the 19 teams would then flip Lafleur to the Nordiques for more than the Canadiens had received giving the Nordiques an enormous talent and marketing advantage.

Too bad that couldn't have happened. That would have made for an even more intense rivalry and would have been great for hockey.

Raskolnikov76 05-07-2013 08:05 PM

lafleur with stastny would have been fun to watch

Mats86 05-08-2013 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 65518349)
Savard could have made a reasonable hockey trade with any one of 19 of the 21 NHL teams but he could not control the ultimate feared destination --> the Nordiques. Mid eighties the Canadiens and Nordiques were locked in a major marketing battle for the province of Quebec.

Basic problem was the fear that one of the 19 teams would then flip Lafleur to the Nordiques for more than the Canadiens had received giving the Nordiques an enormous talent and marketing advantage.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...laflegu01.html

Note that Guy Lafleur was named to the HHOF in 1988 and entered as a Canadien. Then he joined the Rangers for one season then the Nordiques for two seasons when they were no longer a factor in the province of Quebec.

Okay, I understand it now. Savard always was a brilliant mind. He knew Lafleur would end up with his arch rival. It wasn't worth what he could get back

Psycho Papa Joe 05-08-2013 06:17 AM

Illustrates what a truly crappy deal Eagleson got the players back then.

pdd 05-08-2013 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats86 (Post 65584473)
Okay, I understand it now. Savard always was a brilliant mind. He knew Lafleur would end up with his arch rival. It wasn't worth what he could get back

Lafleur never played for Boston.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 65518349)
Savard could have made a reasonable hockey trade with any one of 19 of the 21 NHL teams but he could not control the ultimate feared destination --> the Nordiques. Mid eighties the Canadiens and Nordiques were locked in a major marketing battle for the province of Quebec.

Basic problem was the fear that one of the 19 teams would then flip Lafleur to the Nordiques for more than the Canadiens had received giving the Nordiques an enormous talent and marketing advantage.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...laflegu01.html

Note that Guy Lafleur was named to the HHOF in 1988 and entered as a Canadien.

No, he entered as a hockey player who happened to have been a Canadien. You're thinking of baseball, where you enter as a member of a particular team (for example, Sparky Anderson was hugely successful with the Reds and Tigers, and picked the Reds :rant:). But in hockey, there is no such decision to be made. Players are simply inducted as members. IMHO that's how it should be. Otherwise you could conceivably see Wayne Gretzky entering with the Blues and Ray Bourque entering with the Avalanche, and things like that. Or Chelios with... hmm. He began his prime in Montreal and ended in Chicago, but he played the most for and won the most with Detroit. Now THERE'S an interesting one. Pronger and Messier also. Great examples of why entering with one team is stupid when your whole carer is what's judged. Would Messier be HHOF if his career ended in 1991? Borderline maybe. Pronger if his career ends before the Edmonton trade (yes I know he has the Hartford time). That's another borderline case. Chelios is unlikely if he only has his Montreal years, or only his Chicago years, or only his Detroit years. But all combined, he's a top-ten defenseman of all-time.

As for Lafleur, he should have been traded when he started to decline. He could have possibly been dealt to Calgary for a young Hakan Loob or possibly even Kent Nilsson to play with Mats Naslund on the Canadiens' first line. Imagine a Naslund/Nilsson combination! Wicked. Or had it been Loob, they could have been centered by a developing Bobby Smith; which would have been one of the most dominant lines in the league. Trading him in 1982 (when he was first having injuries and his production was dipping considerably) might have even been able to land Denis Savard.

Canadiens1958 05-08-2013 09:52 AM

Hhof
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 65596509)
Lafleur never played for Boston.



No, he entered as a hockey player who happened to have been a Canadien. You're thinking of baseball, where you enter as a member of a particular team (for example, Sparky Anderson was hugely successful with the Reds and Tigers, and picked the Reds :rant:). But in hockey, there is no such decision to be made. Players are simply inducted as members. IMHO that's how it should be. Otherwise you could conceivably see Wayne Gretzky entering with the Blues and Ray Bourque entering with the Avalanche, and things like that. Or Chelios with... hmm. He began his prime in Montreal and ended in Chicago, but he played the most for and won the most with Detroit. Now THERE'S an interesting one. Pronger and Messier also. Great examples of why entering with one team is stupid when your whole carer is what's judged. Would Messier be HHOF if his career ended in 1991? Borderline maybe. Pronger if his career ends before the Edmonton trade (yes I know he has the Hartford time). That's another borderline case. Chelios is unlikely if he only has his Montreal years, or only his Chicago years, or only his Detroit years. But all combined, he's a top-ten defenseman of all-time.

As for Lafleur, he should have been traded when he started to decline. He could have possibly been dealt to Calgary for a young Hakan Loob or possibly even Kent Nilsson to play with Mats Naslund on the Canadiens' first line. Imagine a Naslund/Nilsson combination! Wicked. Or had it been Loob, they could have been centered by a developing Bobby Smith; which would have been one of the most dominant lines in the league. Trading him in 1982 (when he was first having injuries and his production was dipping considerably) might have even been able to land Denis Savard.

Suggest you look closely at my avatar. It features the Doug Harvey card from the Hockey Hall of Fame Collection, last issued in 1987 the year before Guy Lafleur entered the HHOF. Trust you can do a search of the 261 subjects and find the link between the players, builders and the induction ceremony or ritual at the time in question. It was as described.

As for the arch rival part. Boston is not in the province of Quebec. The Nordiques were. Canadiens/Nordiques playoff games virtually emptied the streets throughout the province placing people in front of TV sets. Canadiens/Bruins never reached this level, before or after.

LeBlondeDemon10 05-08-2013 04:27 PM

You know it really is a shame Lafleur's career ended in Montreal the way it did. The team that gave him life, also was instrumental in his death. The Gretzky trade changed everything. Opened doors for players never before open. Gave permission for GM's to obtain future assets while allowing a so called washed up player (not 99) to get a breath of fresh air, maybe new life in another organization. Too much ego and fear in that Montreal organization to let Lafleur go and possibly thrive somewhere else. So what did they do? They killed his spirit, forced him to retire, put him in purgatory for even suggesting he would like to move on...like they owned him and his soul.

Killion 05-08-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 65622521)
They killed his spirit, forced him to retire, put him in purgatory for even suggesting he would like to move on...like they owned him and his soul.

Ya, it could be brutal, cruel. Frank Mahovlich in Toronto under Imlach. Bobby Hull vs Dollar Bill Wirtz. Keon & Ballard. Lafleur & the Habs. Lots of examples of that sort of thing unfortunately.

Canadiens1958 05-08-2013 04:57 PM

Excellent Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 65622521)
You know it really is a shame Lafleur's career ended in Montreal the way it did. The team that gave him life, also was instrumental in his death. The Gretzky trade changed everything. Opened doors for players never before open. Gave permission for GM's to obtain future assets while allowing a so called washed up player (not 99) to get a breath of fresh air, maybe new life in another organization. Too much ego and fear in that Montreal organization to let Lafleur go and possibly thrive somewhere else. So what did they do? They killed his spirit, forced him to retire, put him in purgatory for even suggesting he would like to move on...like they owned him and his soul.

Excellent post and a great job of connecting the dots between the two eras that were defined by the Oilers trade of Wayne Gretzky.

Mats86 05-08-2013 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 65622521)
You know it really is a shame Lafleur's career ended in Montreal the way it did. The team that gave him life, also was instrumental in his death. The Gretzky trade changed everything. Opened doors for players never before open. Gave permission for GM's to obtain future assets while allowing a so called washed up player (not 99) to get a breath of fresh air, maybe new life in another organization. Too much ego and fear in that Montreal organization to let Lafleur go and possibly thrive somewhere else. So what did they do? They killed his spirit, forced him to retire, put him in purgatory for even suggesting he would like to move on...like they owned him and his soul.

The Lafleur handling and Wickerheiser also was reason Lemieux did not want to play for Montreal.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.