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Wrigley 05-12-2013 10:29 PM

Europe vs. North America
 
What if you took every player who's entered the NHL since the 90-91 season and divided the best players into 2 teams, one European and one North American. 1. What would be the lineups of both teams? Please make 4 lines of forwards, 3 pairs of defensemen, a starting goalie, and a backup goalie. 2. Who would win in a 7 game series?

Team Europe

Forsberg-Sundin-Jagr
Bure-XXX-Selanne

XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

Lidstrom-XXX
XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX

Hasek
XXX

Team North America

XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX

XXX
XXX

Rhiessan71 05-12-2013 10:59 PM

Clarification...only players that entered the NHL during or after 90/91?

Hardyvan123 05-12-2013 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmm (Post 65913003)
What if you took every player who's entered the NHL since the 90-91 season and divided the best players into 2 teams, one European and one North American. 1. What would be the lineups of both teams? Please make 4 lines of forwards, 3 pairs of defensemen, a starting goalie, and a backup goalie. 2. Who would win in a 7 game series?

Team Europe

XXX-XXX-Jagr
XXX-XXX-Selanne
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

Lidstrom-XXX
XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX

XXX
XXX

Team North America

XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX
XXX-XXX

XXX
XXX



So guys at their peak, I assume, that's why Fetisov is there and chemistry as well

Europe

Elias Forsberg Selanne
Malkin Federov Jagr
Ovechkin Datyuk Kovalchuk
Zetterberg Sundin Bure


Lidstrom OEL
Chara Karlsson
Konstantinov Fetisov

Hasek
Lundqvist

North America


Kariya Gretzky Hull
Stevens Lemieux Lindros
Stamkos Messier MSL
LeClair Crosby Yzerman

Bourque MacInnis
Chelios Leetch
Coffey Stevens

Roy
Broduer

Coin flip IMO and I probably could switch a couple of guys in and out did this quick here.

Wrigley 05-13-2013 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 65915783)
Clarification...only players that entered the NHL during or after 90/91?

After the 89-90 season.

Wrigley 05-13-2013 12:26 AM

Quote:

What if you took every player who's entered the NHL since the 90-91 season
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 65916301)
So guys at their peak, I assume, that's why Fetisov is there and chemistry as well. ... Coin flip IMO and I probably could switch a couple of guys in and out did this quick here.

The oldest players on your team should be 90-91 rookies.

Elever 05-13-2013 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 65916301)
So guys at their peak, I assume, that's why Fetisov is there and chemistry as well

Europe

Elias Forsberg Selanne
Malkin Federov Jagr
Ovechkin Datyuk Kovalchuk
Zetterberg Sundin Bure


Lidstrom OEL
Chara Karlsson
Konstantinov Fetisov

Hasek
Lundqvist

North America


Kariya Gretzky Hull
Stevens Lemieux Lindros
Stamkos Messier MSL
LeClair Crosby Yzerman

Take OEL out and replace him with Numminen (or Timonen or Visnovsky or C Johansson etc). And Kevin Stevens? Your list is missing one of the top 30 players of all-time.

EDIT: Scratch that, saw the 1990 rookie thing, ignoring that stipulation. Though your list still includes a bunch of pre-90 debuts.

Fred Taylor 05-13-2013 01:47 PM

The North American team would win in 7.

pdd 05-13-2013 05:17 PM

North American
P.Kariya/Crosby/P.Kane
Leclair/E.Lindros/Tkachuk
Marleau/Thornton/Iginla
Stamkos/B.Richards/St. Louis
Spezza
Parise

Pronger/Keith
Niedermayer/Doughty
Suter/Weber
Foote

Brodeur
Osgood

European
Malkin/P.Forsberg/Jagr
P.Bure/S.Fedorov/Ovechkin
Sundin/Kopitar/Selanne
Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lehtinen
Zhamnov
Renberg

Lidstrom/Karlsson
Chara/Gonchar
Zubov/Konstantinov
OEL

Hasek
Kolzig

Wrigley 05-13-2013 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Taylor (Post 65948135)
The North American team would win in 7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 65959327)
...European
P.Bure/S.Fedorov/Ovechkin
Malkin/Sundin/Jagr
P.Forsberg/Zhamnov/Selanne
Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lehtinen
Renberg
Yashin

Lidstrom/Karlsson
Chara/Gonchar
Zubov/Konstantinov
Malakhov

Hasek
Kolzig

I don't know. I may be alone, but I think Lidstrom, Hasek, Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne, Bure, Sundin, etc. would put up a good fight. :yo: Thanks for posting, euz.

Hardyvan123 05-13-2013 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 65959327)
North American
P.Kariya/Crosby/P.Kane
Leclair/E.Lindros/Tkachuk
Marleau/Thornton/Iginla
Stamkos/B.Richards/St. Louis
Spezza
Parise

Pronger/Keith
Niedermayer/Blake
Doughty/Weber
Foote

Brodeur
Osgood

European
P.Bure/S.Fedorov/Ovechkin
Malkin/Sundin/Jagr
P.Forsberg/Zhamnov/Selanne
Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lehtinen
Renberg
Yashin

Lidstrom/Karlsson
Chara/Gonchar
Zubov/Konstantinov
Malakhov

Hasek
Kolzig

Was driving all day thinking Suter should go with Weber and play with Linros line as a 5 man grind unit, Doughty would move up and Blake would knock out Foote.

Parise would also center my 4th line ahead of Richards.

For Europe, I would drop Zhamnov, slide Forsberg at center and use Kopitaron the wing.

I would still love to use OEL on the back end but not sure who to bump, but it will become more clear that he will belong in this 6 man group in the future.

silkyjohnson50 05-13-2013 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 65959327)
Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lehtinen

What a shutdown line. I think you can comfortably put that line on the ice against whoever you want to consider the top line for North America and fully expect to neutralize them.

Merya 05-14-2013 07:03 AM

To me it seems Like Europe would win in six or seven. It's just the perfect cut-off favoring the European team considering the fall of Soviet Union. Well almost perfect. 89 Would've given Europe Makarov.

Going by chemistry, I'd keep Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne together for second line. Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Jagr would probably be my first line. Bure-Forsberg-Fedorov would be my third line and try to match that against any opposition's 1st line.

Lehtinen-Datsyuk-Fedorov would be another interesting shutdown line. They could stop the opposition by blocking the goal with their Selke awards. :P

TAnnala 05-14-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 66019829)
To me it seems Like Europe would win in six or seven. It's just the perfect cut-off favoring the European team considering the fall of Soviet Union. Well almost perfect. 89 Would've given Europe Makarov.

Going by chemistry, I'd keep Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne together for second line. Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Jagr would probably be my first line. Bure-Forsberg-Fedorov would be my third line and try to match that against any opposition's 1st line.

Lehtinen-Datsyuk-Fedorov would be another interesting shutdown line. They could stop the opposition by blocking the goal with their Selke awards. :P

I know chemistry is a great thing but if you are going to match up a line against opposing 1st line I would feel a lot more comfortable to have Lehtinen on the other wing than Bure.

wunderpanda 05-14-2013 08:42 AM

Bure-Fedorov-Mogilny line please :)

tombombadil 05-14-2013 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 66019829)
To me it seems Like Europe would win in six or seven. It's just the perfect cut-off favoring the European team considering the fall of Soviet Union. Well almost perfect. 89 Would've given Europe Makarov.

Going by chemistry, I'd keep Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne together for second line. Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Jagr would probably be my first line. Bure-Forsberg-Fedorov would be my third line and try to match that against any opposition's 1st line.

Lehtinen-Datsyuk-Fedorov would be another interesting shutdown line. They could stop the opposition by blocking the goal with their Selke awards. :P

who would win could be argued, but i think it is clear that the Euro's, starting at this point in history, are equals. The same would not be said for any time period previous. I think this shows how much the game has progressed, and that the guys who stood out in 3d in years previous were standing out against lesser competition.

I also would pick the Euros with these lineups, but the lineups are way, way too solid to really be anything resembling confident.

pdd 05-15-2013 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 65987627)
Was driving all day thinking Suter should go with Weber and play with Linros line as a 5 man grind unit, Doughty would move up and Blake would knock out Foote.

:handclap:

I did come to a realization when re-reading this; Blake played a handful of games in 89-90 and is technically ineligible. So make your listed changes and keep Foote as #7.

Quote:

Parise would also center my 4th line ahead of Richards.
You'd jump Parise ahead of both Spezza and Richards? And then use him out of his natural position... at their natural position? No. Just no.

Quote:

For Europe, I would drop Zhamnov, slide Forsberg at center and use Kopitaron the wing.
Zhamnov didn't feel right, and Kopitar completely slipped my mind. It also gives us a way to get rid of Yashin.

Quote:

I would still love to use OEL on the back end but not sure who to bump, but it will become more clear that he will belong in this 6 man group in the future.
I wanted to include OEL, but it was a tough decision. Maybe just bump Malakhov for him for now.

Theokritos 05-15-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 66084587)
I did come to a realization when re-reading this; Blake played a handful of games in 89-90 and is technically ineligible.

Well, he only played 4 games in 89-90, so technically the NHL would still define him as a rookie in the 90-91 season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 66084587)
Zhamnov didn't feel right, and Kopitar completely slipped my mind. It also gives us a way to get rid of Yashin.

Why not Malkin at center where he is at home and better than at LW? For the vacant winger spot you can pick one out of Pálffy, Eliáš, Alfredsson, Kovalchuk, Hossa...

Merya 05-19-2013 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wunderpanda (Post 66022753)
Bure-Fedorov-Mogilny line please :)

I thought Mogilny was ineligible like Makarov, because of his defection and thus starting his NHL career year too early? Might be wrong, his wikipage isn't very informative.

PhillyBluesFan 05-19-2013 06:49 PM

Kovalchuk/Malkin/Jagr
Bure/H.Sedin/Ovechkin
Zetterberg/Forsberg/Federov
Elias/Datsyuk/Lehtinen
Holik

Chara/Ozolinsh
Lidstrom/Karrlson
Konstantinov/Kasparaitis
Fetisov

Hasek
Rinne

I think they would kill the North American team

Darth Yoda 05-19-2013 07:48 PM

I believe that 89-90 should be the starting year, since it was actually then the russians started coming. These teams are after all trying to match up the two continents on fair ground.
Makarov wont fit the team anyway since his peak was before that year.

Hardyvan123 05-19-2013 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 66084587)
:handclap:

I did come to a realization when re-reading this; Blake played a handful of games in 89-90 and is technically ineligible. So make your listed changes and keep Foote as #7.



You'd jump Parise ahead of both Spezza and Richards? And then use him out of his natural position... at their natural position? No. Just no.



Zhamnov didn't feel right, and Kopitar completely slipped my mind. It also gives us a way to get rid of Yashin.



I wanted to include OEL, but it was a tough decision. Maybe just bump Malakhov for him for now.

Parise is just a more complete player than Spezza or Richards, I would find a way to ahve him on my team.

I also agree on your last thought about bumping OEL for Malakov, he is just so good and dependable at both ends of the ice and would be a good fit to play with anyone.

Flip a coin as to which team wins though.

Theokritos 05-20-2013 10:36 AM

Europe:

Alexander Ovechkin – Yevgeni Malkin – Jaromír Jágr
Peter Forsberg – Sergei Fyodorov – Pavel Bure
Patrik Eliaš – Mats Sundin – Teemu Selänne
Henrik Zetterberg – Pavel Datsyuk – Jere Lehtinen

Nicklas Lidström – Zdeno Chára
Vladimir Konstantinov – Sergei Zubov
Kimmo Timonen – Róbert Švehla

Dominik Hašek (Henrik Lundqvist)

North America:

Paul Kariya - Sidney Crosby - Jarome Iginla
Steven Stamkos - Joe Thornton - Martin Saint-Louis
John LeClair – Eric Lindros – Daniel Heatley
Craig Conroy – Mike Peca – Jonathan Toews

Chris Pronger – Scott Niedermayer
Rob Blake – Shea Weber
Dan Boyle – Duncan Keith

Martin Brodeur (Roberto Luongo)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Yoda (Post 66307809)
I believe that 89-90 should be the starting year, since it was actually then the russians started coming. These teams are after all trying to match up the two continents on fair ground.

True. Among the players I picked, Hašek (Czechoslovakia) and Konstantinov (Soviet Union) surely would have come over earlier if not for the Iron Curtain. Fyodorov and Bure too I guess. What does my line-up look like without them? Forsberg to center, Selänne moves to this line and Ilya Kovalchuk joins them on LW. The RW spot on the third line is taken over by one out of Žigmund Pálffy, Daniel Alfredsson and Marián Hossa. Kenny Jönsson on D instead of Konstantinov, Miikka Kiprusoff as the new backup G.

pdd 05-20-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theokritos (Post 66333263)
Europe:

Alexander Ovechkin – Yevgeni Malkin – Jaromír Jágr
Peter Forsberg – Sergei Fyodorov – Pavel Bure
Patrik Eliaš – Mats Sundin – Teemu Selänne
Henrik Zetterberg – Pavel Datsyuk – Jere Lehtinen

Nicklas Lidström – Zdeno Chára
Vladimir Konstantinov – Sergei Zubov
Kimmo Timonen – Róbert Švehla

Dominik Hašek (Henrik Lundqvist)

North America:

Paul Kariya - Sidney Crosby - Jarome Iginla
Steven Stamkos - Joe Thornton - Martin Saint-Louis
John LeClair – Eric Lindros – Daniel Heatley
Craig Conroy – Mike Peca – Jonathan Toews

Chris Pronger – Scott Niedermayer
Rob Blake – Shea Weber
Dan Boyle – Duncan Keith

Martin Brodeur (Roberto Luongo)



True. Among the players I picked, Hašek (Czechoslovakia) and Konstantinov (Soviet Union) surely would have come over earlier if not for the Iron Curtain. Fyodorov and Bure too I guess. What does my line-up look like without them? Forsberg to center, Selänne moves to this line and Ilya Kovalchuk joins them on LW. The RW spot on the third line is taken over by one out of Žigmund Pálffy, Daniel Alfredsson and Marián Hossa. Kenny Jönsson on D instead of Konstantinov, Miikka Kiprusoff as the new backup G.

Side point; had Fedorov come over in 1989 instead of 1990, it's possible that Mark Messier doesn't win the 1990 Hart trophy. Detroit would have had no need to trade for Jimmy Carson (Fedorov would have filled the 2C gap left by the trade of Adam Oates) and Yzerman perhaps scores more; Fedorov likely doesn't get as much ice time as Carson (he wasn't as established a player and likely not as skilled a scorer at that point), which might result in Yzerman scoring 130+ points. Carson remaining in Edmonton (IIRC, Detroit was the only team that made a significant offer) probably ends up playing, reducing Messier's PP time close to where it had been the previous season. Carson was the #1 center in 88-89, often sharing a PP unit with Messier and Kurri; Messier was on pace for the same ~100 points as Kurri and Carson. That probably changes history drastically for that season. Edmonton also doesn't have nearly the forward depth for the playoffs, and probably doesn't win the Cup (congratulations Boston, starring Bourque, Moog, and Neely!)

The question is... with another NHL season on his repoirtoire, does Fedorov win the 1992 Selke? He received the most first-place votes, both was left off of many ballots or placed in third, while Carbonneau took home a lot of firsts and seconds to win it in a fairly close race. With more NHL exposure, I think Fedorov might win it given what we know. Picking him as the winner isn't "wrong" for pretty much any season from 1992 through 2004, although I would argue in favor of others for several of those seasons (In that span I give Fedorov 4, Lehtinen 3, Yzerman 2, Madden 2, Conroy 1, and Carbonneau 1).

pdd 05-20-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theokritos (Post 66333263)
John LeClair – Eric Lindros – Daniel Heatley

Over Tkachuk, Marleau, Spezza, B.Richards, P.Kane, Parise?

No way. Not a chance. He had a couple of high-end years (playing with Spezza, where Spezza was the better player) and has been a second-tier star or lower outside of that. Tkachuk was a dominant PF for most of the 90s, Marleau has been excellent both ways with or without Thornton and (despite the narrative and the team success/failure) has been excellent in the postseason. Spezza is one of the best offensive players of his generation; definitely a more dominant player than Heatley. Better defensively too.
Richards has as many high-end regular seasons as Heatley, and he has some very strong postseasons - including a Cup run with a Conn Smythe. Kane has an excellent postseason run with a Cup, plus multiple extremely good regular seasons and good international performance. Parise has strong international performance, good postseason performance, and multiple strong regular season offensive performances combined with very good defensive play. There's no argument for Heatley over any of them unless you're going strictly by absolute peak, in which case he still isn't the best option.

Theokritos 05-20-2013 02:33 PM

Heatley was the the last player I added because he was the one I wasn't sold on. Originally I wanted Keith Tkachuk on that line (Lindros + Tkachuk, wow!), but I don't know how much he really played on the RW. I tried to use players in positions they have actually occupied during their career (the only exception is Craig Conroy, Center on LW: I desperately wanted a real good defensive player with some scoring upside on the fourth line).

Marleau: Never top 3 in scoring, top 20 finishes: two. Heatley was a top 3 scorer three times (once without Spezza) and has five top 20 finishes. He was selected to play for Team Canada in the 2004 World Cup and the 2006 Olympics, Marleau was not. Marleau played in four World Championships and never stood out while Heatley made the all-star team three times (out of six appearances at the WCh).

Spezza, Richards: Only reason I didn't consider them is position.

Kane, Parise: They probably surpass Heatley for the 2015 edition of my team. I want to see them put up another top season or two before that though.


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