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-   -   The Oilers And Drafting Defensemen (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1430589)

ManByng 05-16-2013 09:40 AM

The Oilers And Drafting Defensemen
 
seems the last decade or so we have had ongoing problems with finding high quality d-men at the draft. went back on HockeyDB to the year 2000 and i was amazed at how inept this franchise was at finding effective NHL d-men. i mean just NHL d-men and not just potential franchise ones. from 2000 on, and i won't include recent drafts for they are still in the developmental stage, only Matt Greene, Jeff Petry and Theo Peckham have played more than a handful of NHL games. and you wonder why this team is always struggling at the defense position....that's a lot of years of shooting mostly blanks with defenseman picks. let's hope that the last few years picks like Klefbom, Musil, Marincin, Gernat, Simpson and Davidson, as well as whoever they pick at this years draft can help us permanenty build a strong defensive prospect system. thoughts?

Hoogaar23 05-16-2013 09:58 AM

Contrast that with the Predators from 2001 on:

Hamhuis, Weber, Klein, Suter, Franson, Parent, Blum, Josi, Ellis...

doubledown99 05-16-2013 10:14 AM

Yup we've sucked at picking them.

Lets play the what if game - imagine in 2007 and 2009 if instead of Gagner we got Alzner and instead of Paajarvi we got Cowen.

Man would our team be different (and in much better shape). Oh well. Them the breaks

oilers4life5 05-16-2013 10:43 AM

I would take Ganger over Alzner every day of the week!

Perfect_Drug 05-16-2013 10:54 AM

We have quite a few first round Dmen in our lineup and system (Not all drafted by us) that haven't exactly lived up to their billing:

Plante
Smid
Fistric
J.Schultz
Whitney
Teubert


I think its safe to say we have terrible Defensive Prospect development.

thadd 05-16-2013 11:01 AM

One thing that needs to be considered is that we haven't even had our own AHL team for a long time. I think that spoiled the development of a ton of players, but still... yeah we have blown in the past at developing d-men.

I think we can all agree than Marincin has had a GREAT year. I was worried that he'd suffer like Hamilton did. (Used to pushing around smaller guys and was at a huge disadvantage once he turned pro.

I'm totally sold on Marincin and Gernat turning into a full time NHL pairing a few years down the road. They still need to put on a considerable amount of weight, though.

Davidson and Musil... man its weird mentioning so many guys... but if we don't rush these guys it looks like we'll have enough quality #3-6 d-men with size for a long time. Klefbom could turn into a 1st pairing guy. Too soon to tell... but I think our problem now is at center and bottom 6 forwards.

I think one could say that our scouting and development at all positions has been brutal over hte years. You can't count guys that go top 10, because they're just doing what they were expected to do. (Gagner, Hall, Hopkins and Yakupov.)

And that should count for goalies that go really early in the draft, too.

The Perfect Human* 05-16-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilers4life5 (Post 66138881)
I would take Ganger over Alzner every day of the week!

:facepalm:

Top-pairing defenseman > weak 2C

zeus3007* 05-16-2013 11:23 AM

We really need to draft Nurse or Ristolainen this year. I think I'm in the minority with this belief, but we've put blueliners on the backburner for long enough now, and I don't see a d-man prospect of #1 caliber in our system. A bunch who could be #2's, but a Nurse or Ristolainen should solidify our defense core for years.

zeus3007* 05-16-2013 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Perfect Human (Post 66140271)
:facepalm:

Top-pairing defenseman > weak 2C

Alzner is even more one dimensional than Gagner. He's not a true top pair guy, he's a top pair guy in the sense that Jason Smith was. Great shut down guy, but he`s really just a larger version of Smid. I'm not arguing that he wouldn't fit our needs better, I think he would (although Horcoff or Belanger at #2 center is scary), but Alzner and Gagner are actually not far off in value.

New dawn 05-16-2013 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubledown99 (Post 66137969)
Yup we've sucked at picking them.

Lets play the what if game - imagine in 2007 and 2009 if instead of Gagner we got Alzner and instead of Paajarvi we got Cowen.

Man would our team be different (and in much better shape). Oh well. Them the breaks

I think that Alzner went before Gagner and Cowen before Paajarvi so what if we had first pick those years?

DousedInOil 05-16-2013 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug (Post 66139265)
We have quite a few first round Dmen in our lineup and system (Not all drafted by us) that haven't exactly lived up to their billing:

Plante
Smid
Fistric
J.Schultz
Whitney
Teubert


I think its safe to say we have terrible Defensive Prospect development.

Schultz wasn't a first round pick, Whitney isn't coming back, Fistric is a UFA, and I'm not going to include Plante/Teubert given that they aren't playing in the NHL in any significant role.

So really just Smid.

ManByng 05-16-2013 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 (Post 66137489)
Contrast that with the Predators from 2001 on:

Hamhuis, Weber, Klein, Suter, Franson, Parent, Blum, Josi, Ellis...

i noticed that Columbus is rather good at it too....Ryan Murray and Mike Reilly are waiting in the wings, David Savard, Dauton Prout and Cody Goloubef are all getting chances to play now, John Moore, Adam McQuaid, Marc Methot, and Kris Russell are all NHL regulars. pretty good job here.

ManByng 05-16-2013 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thadd (Post 66139555)
One thing that needs to be considered is that we haven't even had our own AHL team for a long time. I think that spoiled the development of a ton of players, but still... yeah we have blown in the past at developing d-men.

I think we can all agree than Marincin has had a GREAT year. I was worried that he'd suffer like Hamilton did. (Used to pushing around smaller guys and was at a huge disadvantage once he turned pro.

I'm totally sold on Marincin and Gernat turning into a full time NHL pairing a few years down the road. They still need to put on a considerable amount of weight, though.

Davidson and Musil... man its weird mentioning so many guys... but if we don't rush these guys it looks like we'll have enough quality #3-6 d-men with size for a long time. Klefbom could turn into a 1st pairing guy. Too soon to tell... but I think our problem now is at center and bottom 6 forwards.

I think one could say that our scouting and development at all positions has been brutal over hte years. You can't count guys that go top 10, because they're just doing what they were expected to do. (Gagner, Hall, Hopkins and Yakupov.)

And that should count for goalies that go really early in the draft, too.

some very good points here! i actually like the d-men we have drafted since 2010 and i hope we can continue that. the Oilers seem afraid to take a goalie with a high pick, and i don't mean necessarily a 1st rounder, but they have missed out on goalies like John Gibson because they didn't want to take a goalie in the 2nd round. i am hopeful the Oil can change this and maybe try to get a potential top end goalie in the upcoming draft with Fucale, Comrie, Jarry, Peterson and Martin all looking like they could be very good down the road.

ManByng 05-16-2013 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 66140347)
We really need to draft Nurse or Ristolainen this year. I think I'm in the minority with this belief, but we've put blueliners on the backburner for long enough now, and I don't see a d-man prospect of #1 caliber in our system. A bunch who could be #2's, but a Nurse or Ristolainen should solidify our defense core for years.

my gut feeling is that the Oil will only take a d-man at #7 if all the good centers that could be there at #7 are gone. (Barkov, Lindholm and Monahan). i would take Ristolainen over Nurse. Nurse is more of a project and Rasmus is perhaps more along developmentally and could be in the lineup in a few years.....that's if they don't trade the pick! :amazed:

joestevens29 05-16-2013 11:56 AM

Back in the 90's it didn't matter how we drafted, because Slats and company had an eye for drafted players and the ability to trade for them.

doubledown99 05-16-2013 12:01 PM

Dmen can be drafted with later picks and lots of times they turn out better. #1 centers can usually only be acquired through the draft and usually with only high picks.

So if we have a choice between a potential #1 center and #1 D - I go with the center every time.

In this draft, the 2nd round dmen are just as talented as the top ranked guys.

Also - lol at some of you for Alzner comments. His game has morphed under Oates. He is asked to jump up and support the rush and attack in offensive zone much more and he has thrived. He is great at the transition game and has a great 1st pass. Seriously why comment if you haven't watched much of a player?

zeus3007* 05-16-2013 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubledown99 (Post 66142023)
Dmen can be drafted with later picks and lots of times they turn out better. #1 centers can usually only be acquired through the draft and usually with only high picks.

So if we have a choice between a potential #1 center and #1 D - I go with the center every time.

In this draft, the 2nd round dmen are just as talented as the top ranked guys.

Also - lol at some of you for Alzner comments. His game has morphed under Oates. He is asked to jump up and support the rush and attack in offensive zone much more and he has thrived. He is great at the transition game and has a great 1st pass. Seriously why comment if you haven't watched much of a player?

Yes, later drafted d-men can end up better, but its even more likely that later round d-men don't make it. You can bring up all sorts of 2nd rounders like Subban and Weber, but you need to remember that this isn't necessarily the norm. In general, you need to draft more d-men just to get some that can play. Banking on all of your 2nd and 3rd round drafted d-men making it is outright foolish.

lakai17 05-16-2013 12:35 PM

Zadorov at #7 makes Edmonton hard to play against in the future with some big nasty defenceman along with Marincin and Musil. Look at that size.

Schultz-Zadorov
Marincin-Klefbom
Musil-

Gernat


Zadorov at 6'6 and 230lbs skate exceptionally well and enjoys the physical game.

We know Mark Hunter has been around the game for a while and the OHL. I'm on the Zadorov wagon. Good read.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=656392

doubledown99 05-16-2013 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 66142923)
Yes, later drafted d-men can end up better, but its even more likely that later round d-men don't make it. You can bring up all sorts of 2nd rounders like Subban and Weber, but you need to remember that this isn't necessarily the norm. In general, you need to draft more d-men just to get some that can play. Banking on all of your 2nd and 3rd round drafted d-men making it is outright foolish.

I read an article a few years ago that explained this occurrence really well.

It said that dmen take the longest to develop due to intricacies of position. It said that it was better to leave dmen in juniors/minors to learn and develop and also gain physical maturity.

The issue with 1st rd dmen busting so much was because they get rushed. GMs and coaches have short shelf lives so letting dmen develop properly isn't in the cards. Also fans now have more of a voice so they start to demand their high picks be in the lineup sooner rather than later. And if picks aren't its considered a failure on the teams part and puts the management jobs at risk.

So the dmen get pushed into the lineup to soon, lose confidence and end up busting. The article said with 2nd rd picks and later the same urgency an pressure wasn't there.

Just an interesting thought. Yes taking a dman early isn't bad. But will the team and fans have the patience to let him develop say for 2-5 years?

nando2392 05-16-2013 12:48 PM

Ristolainen and Pulock. I want them both

joestevens29 05-16-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubledown99 (Post 66143663)
I read an article a few years ago that explained this occurrence really well.

It said that dmen take the longest to develop due to intricacies of position. It said that it was better to leave dmen in juniors/minors to learn and develop and also gain physical maturity.

The issue with 1st rd dmen busting so much was because they get rushed. GMs and coaches have short shelf lives so letting dmen develop properly isn't in the cards. Also fans now have more of a voice so they start to demand their high picks be in the lineup sooner rather than later. And if picks aren't its considered a failure on the teams part and puts the management jobs at risk.

So the dmen get pushed into the lineup to soon, lose confidence and end up busting. The article said with 2nd rd picks and later the same urgency an pressure wasn't there.

Just an interesting thought. Yes taking a dman early isn't bad. But will the team and fans have the patience to let him develop say for 2-5 years?

Other problem is waivers. You don't have that option to tell Zadarov he needs one more year in the, but at the end of the year we'll give you a chance so sign a two-way deal. Now if the guy has earned waiver eligibility he has earned it and you can't get around it.

Would Peckham have benefited from playing all year in OKC? Probably more than him sitting in the PB.

nando2392 05-16-2013 01:17 PM

i'll take Morrissey with a high first and let him develop

zeus3007* 05-16-2013 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakai17 (Post 66143355)
Zadorov at #7 makes Edmonton hard to play against in the future with some big nasty defenceman along with Marincin and Musil. Look at that size.

Schultz-Zadorov
Marincin-Klefbom
Musil-

Gernat


Zadorov at 6'6 and 230lbs skate exceptionally well and enjoys the physical game. I'm on the Zadorov wagon.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=656392

Why would we even consider Zadarov when Nurse is considered a vastly superior prospect, and not small either.

lakai17 05-16-2013 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 66148719)
Why would we even consider Zadarov when Nurse is considered a vastly superior prospect, and not small either.

Just a gamble in my opinion obviously. He is big raw talent on defence. He skates very well for that size and uses his size. Yakupov isn't going anywhere soon and Zharkov has potential.

Marincin and Musil will be hard to play against in the future. All that size on defence would be hard too play against. Edmonton have enough marshmallows on offense today but I'd be happy with Monahan.

DousedInOil 05-16-2013 04:37 PM

Since stu has taken over we have only drafted 3 defencemen with our 1st or 2nd round picks.

Oscar Klefbom
David Musil
Martin Marincin

I wouldn't call any of those guys bad picks. In fact, two of them are steals. It's not that we suck at drafting defencemen, it's that we haven't allocated our picks accordingly.


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