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-   -   OT: Claude Julien: The Sequel (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1430797)

TP 05-16-2013 03:01 PM

Claude Julien: The Sequel
 
Clode

/smithforagent

PatriceBergeronFan 05-16-2013 03:06 PM

Thank God for Claude. Sometimes frustrating, but he knows what he is doing. As long as the players do their jobs, Julien is the perfect coach.

Neely08 05-16-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHortonFan (Post 66154749)
Thank God for Claude. Sometimes frustrating, but he knows what he is doing. As long as the players do their jobs, Julien is the perfect coach.

I'd of said infuriating and mind boggling, but yeah.

TP 05-16-2013 03:09 PM

In.Game.Adjustments please

Greek_physique 05-16-2013 03:10 PM

I thought the title said "Claude Julien - The Squirrel" :naughty:

lextune 05-16-2013 03:18 PM

The only success in the first round seemed to come when the team was forced to play outside of his system.

My opinion.

#winninginspiteof

PlayMakers 05-16-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patty59 (Post 66105241)
I doubt he would have been fired if they lost that game. But I would have to guess that if Chiarelli was told "him or both of you", CJ would be gone in a heartbeat.

There's no way that Chiarelli would want to fire CJ, but never say never. It could always happen and everyone including Chiarelli and Julien know this. But there is just no reason to even talk about it to the media at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by patty59 (Post 66105879)
Push comes to shove and Chiarelli would fire him. No doubt in my mind. Sutter fired his brother, Burke fired his BFF(Wilson) after similar comments. GM's say these things all the time and usually turn out to be false.

I disagree.

Not only do I believe that's the hill Chiarelli is willing to die on, I think that battle has already been fought.

I think "total autonomy with regards to hockey decisions" means everything to Chiarelli. When Neely was hired, Chiarelli went on radio show after radio show telling everyone that he makes the hockey decisions. "Total autonomy." He has to answer to Neely for his performance, but he isn't going to let Neely tell him how to do his job, no more than Parcells was willing to let anyone else pick the groceries. If Chiarelli fails, Neely can fire him, but his success/failure will be the result of his decisions, not Neely's.

I believe this rift came to a head after the Philly series in 2010. Neely, who has zero GM experience and even less coaching experience went to the Harry Sinden/Mike O'Connell playbook and wanted to scapegoat the coach. Chiarelli didn't think that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, decided that he wasn't going to be a puppet. He stood with his coach and drew a line in the sand. That line turned to cement when Chiarelli and Julien won the Cup. Now, as Dupe's said on the radio today, "they're a package deal."

And really, at this point, what does Chiarelli have to fear? If they fired him this afternoon he'd have a job by this evening.

Schalkenullvier* 05-16-2013 03:25 PM

no argument from me that he's a very good coach. My issues are rather that I don't think keeping too much of the cup together and in their old habits is a good thing

stick9 05-16-2013 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ladd (Post 66155883)
I disagree.

Not only do I believe that's the hill Chiarelli is willing to die on, I think that battle has already been fought.

I think "total autonomy with regards to hockey decisions" means everything to Chiarelli. When Neely was hired, Chiarelli went on radio show after radio show telling everyone that he makes the hockey decisions. "Total autonomy." Sure, he has to answer to Neely for his performance, but he isn't going to have Neely telling him how to do his job, no more than Parcells was willing to let anyone else pick the groceries.

I believe this rift came to a head after the Philly series in 2010. Neely, who has zero GM experience and even less coaching experience went to the Harry Sinden/Mike O'Connell playbook and wanted to scapegoat the coach. Chiarelli didn't think that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, decided that he wasn't going to be a puppet. He stood with his coach and drew a line in the sand. That line turned to cement when Chiarelli and Julien won the Cup. As Dupe's said on the radio today, "they're a package deal."

And really, at this point, what does Chiarelli have to fear? If they fired him this afternoon he'd have a job by this evening.

Bill, how long is Julian's get out of jail free card good for? At what point does PC start thinking, a change is needed?

I have no problem with Julian coaching this team as long as the results are there.

bp13 05-16-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ladd (Post 66155883)
I disagree.

Not only do I believe that's the hill Chiarelli is willing to die on, I think that battle has already been fought.

I think "total autonomy with regards to hockey decisions" means everything to Chiarelli. When Neely was hired, Chiarelli went on radio show after radio show telling everyone that he makes the hockey decisions. "Total autonomy." He has to answer to Neely for his performance, but he isn't going to let Neely tell him how to do his job, no more than Parcells was willing to let anyone else pick the groceries. If Chiarelli fails, Neely can fire him, but his success/failure will be the result of his decisions, not Neely's.

I believe this rift came to a head after the Philly series in 2010. Neely, who has zero GM experience and even less coaching experience went to the Harry Sinden/Mike O'Connell playbook and wanted to scapegoat the coach. Chiarelli didn't think that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, decided that he wasn't going to be a puppet. He stood with his coach and drew a line in the sand. That line turned to cement when Chiarelli and Julien won the Cup. As Dupe's said on the radio today, "they're a package deal."

And really, at this point, what does Chiarelli have to fear? If they fired him this afternoon he'd have a job by this evening.

Agreed across the board Bill, but I do wonder why a GM would every truly wed himself to a coach and vice versa. You still have to look out for #1. Moreover, coaches often don't mesh with different rosters, and if over time this roster changed, why would we accept a GM who was hardheaded about his coach?

Ultimately I agree that if PC feels he's the best coach, he might be willing to die on that hill before he fired him. But I find it hard to believe there's no situation where he might decide CJ isn't the right coach.

ReggieMoto 05-16-2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ladd (Post 66155883)
Not only do I believe that's the hill Chiarelli is willing to die on, I think that battle has already been fought.

I think "total autonomy with regards to hockey decisions" means everything to Chiarelli. When Neely was hired, Chiarelli went on radio show after radio show telling everyone that he makes the hockey decisions. "Total autonomy." He has to answer to Neely for his performance, but he isn't going to let Neely telling him how to do his job, no more than Parcells was willing to let anyone else pick the groceries. If Chiarelli fails, Neely can fire him, but his success/failure will be the result of his decisions, not Neely's.

I believe this rift came to a head after the Philly series in 2010. Neely, who has zero GM experience and even less coaching experience went to the Harry Sinden/Mike O'Connell playbook and wanted to scapegoat the coach. Chiarelli didn't think that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, decided that he wasn't going to be a puppet. He stood with his coach and drew a line in the sand. That line turned to cement when Chiarelli and Julien won the Cup. As Dupe's said on the radio today, "they're a package deal."

And really, at this point, what does Chiarelli have to fear? If they fired him this afternoon he'd have a job by this evening.

My god, how I hope and pray this is all true. It would restore my faith in the natural order of things...ok, so maybe that's a little over the top but only just a little.

I get the vibe from listening to Chiarelli during his interviews that this is how it is. It would seem to be that way with the way the coach continues to manage his roster. I sure do like hearing/reading from a reputable source who believes it to be so, too.

TimmytheTank 05-16-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lextune (Post 66155725)
The only success in the first round seemed to come when the team was forced to play outside of his system.

My opinion.

#winninginspiteof

I think this is a perfect way of describing what I've been feeling for a while now, but couldn't properly phrase, so thank you. This team has had great defense, penalty killing, and goaltending under Claude Julien's tutelage, and not much else. If I had to grade the team during his time here it would look something like:

5v5 Offense: C (I think average is pretty generous)
5v5 Defense: A (Regularly top 5 in the league)
Penalty Kill: A+ (Regularly best in the league)
Power Play: F (Regularly worst in the league, or close enough to make no difference)
Goaltending: A (Perennial Vezina candidates)
Intangibles: B- (good when they're there, like the cup run, but when they're not, extremely inconsistant)

If all those things are equally valuable (for argument's sake) his GPA would be in the B- range. Maybe you give him a bonus point for winning the cup this way and say he gets a B, but either way I think it's fair to wonder if the team would be better off with someone who isn't so wildly inconsistent across the different aspects of the game.

I think he's a good coach, and it might be hard to find someone who is categorically "better" than him, but I wonder sometimes if his flaws outweigh his benefits and whether on balance his methods help or hurt the team.

DougiesGoingDeep 05-16-2013 03:49 PM

FWIW, Jimmy Murph just said on Felger and Maz that Claude AND Chia wouldn't be here next year if they lost game 7 the other night and he even said theres still a good chance they will be gone next year if they lose this series

He thinks they are a package deal and there's a lot of division in the organization as far as how they value those two guys, especially Julien.

DoubleAAAA 05-16-2013 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmytheTank (Post 66156829)
I think this is a perfect way of describing what I've been feeling for a while now, but couldn't properly phrase, so thank you. This team has had great defense, penalty killing, and goaltending under Claude Julien's tutelage, and not much else. If I had to grade the team during his time here it would look something like:

5v5 Offense: C (I think average is pretty generous)
5v5 Defense: A (Regularly top 5 in the league)
Penalty Kill: A+ (Regularly best in the league)
Power Play: F (Regularly worst in the league, or close enough to make no difference)
Goaltending: A (Perennial Vezina candidates)
Intangibles: B- (good when they're there, like the cup run, but when they're not, extremely inconsistant)

If all those things are equally valuable (for argument's sake) his GPA would be in the B- range. Maybe you give him a bonus point for winning the cup this way and say he gets a B, but either way I think it's fair to wonder if the team would be better off with someone who isn't so wildly inconsistent across the different aspects of the game.

I think he's a good coach, and it might be hard to find someone who is categorically "better" than him, but I wonder sometimes if his flaws outweigh his benefits and whether on balance his methods help or hurt the team.

You know there are stats you could use to back these up right?

5 v 5 the last 3 years the B's have finished 6th, 1st, and 1st in goals for. Sooo, I would strongly disagree that a C is "pretty generous" :laugh:

Rubber Biscuit 05-16-2013 04:10 PM

I just don't buy this idea that Claude needs some incredible run to keep his job. I really think it's safe barring an epic collapse this series. I think it was safe no matter what. I don't necessarily think it should be safe no matter what, but I think it is. I've heard a lot over the past few days about how the Bruins aren't able to get it done in the playoffs, and it's an indictment against Claude and the job he's done.

Just for the sake of comparison, I went and quickly checked the playoff success of some other teams since 2008. A "W" represents a Cup win, and an "Lx" represents a loss where x is the round number.

Bruins- L1, L2, L2, W, L1, Advanced past 1
Penguins- L4, W, L2, L1, L1, Advanced past 1
Blackhawks- DNQ, L3, W, L1, L1, Advanced past 1
Sharks- L2, L1, L3, L3, L1, Advanced past 1
Canucks- DNQ, L2, L2, L4 :) , L1, L1
Flyers- L3, L1, L4, L2, L2, DNQ
Red Wings- W, L4, L2, L2, L1, Advanced past 1
Kings- DNQ, DNQ, L1, L1, W, Advanced past 1

Just some numbers to think about. I think they've got similar results to other teams who are generally considered to be the contenders year in and year out in the NHL. I know some of those teams have changed coaches over the time period. But, again, just some numbers to think about. I think it really speaks to how tough it is to win in the NHL.

PatriceBergeronFan 05-16-2013 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neely08 (Post 66154905)
I'd of said infuriating and mind boggling, but yeah.

This is a bit more accurate for sure. :laugh:

du5566* 05-16-2013 06:20 PM

Getting pushed to 7 games after being up 3-1 and pulling out a miracle down 4-1 in the third of game 7 is being called a "character win" and a "positive thing" by Clode. This comment combined with Chia's comments about Clode really scare me. I mean is anyone held accountable in this franchise???

What happened in the first round was a joke and if the Bruins play with that type of inconsistency against the Rangers it's going to be a short series.

Artemis 05-16-2013 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by du5566 (Post 66166139)
Getting pushed to 7 games after being up 3-1 and pulling out a miracle down 4-1 in the third of game 7 is being called a "character win" and a "positive thing" by Clode. This comment combined with Chia's comments about Clode really scare me. I mean is anyone held accountable in this franchise???

What happened in the first round was a joke and if the Bruins play with that type of inconsistency against the Rangers it's going to be a short series.

Do you believe what a coach says to his players and what he says to the media are the exact same thing?

TimmytheTank 05-17-2013 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA (Post 66158933)
You know there are stats you could use to back these up right?

5 v 5 the last 3 years the B's have finished 6th, 1st, and 1st in goals for. Sooo, I would strongly disagree that a C is "pretty generous" :laugh:

Fair enough. Now that you say that I remember it, I was just being lazy and didn't know where to find it. Anyway, my overall point remains the same, and last nights game is a perfect example of what frustrates me about Claude. He has assets, that he could use to make his PP better. Would it make his team defense a bit worse? Probably. But is it better to be a B+/A- across the board or have an A/A+ here and a F there? I prefer consistency I guess.

The way he prefers vets over new players ad nauseum gets to me, and maybe this wasn't the best way to make my point, but that's the way I feel :dunno: If a coach is forced into using his offensive talent (like last night) and that's what wins him the game (like last night) at the end of the day is he a good coach or a lucky one?

smithformeragent 05-17-2013 09:31 AM

Clode

ODAAT 05-17-2013 09:33 AM

Claude gave the green light to Bart/Krug and DH last night, and deserves a ton of credit, probably making alot of the naysayers about him a touch quieter this morning.

While I get tired of the constant play it back to the other D system, I get it too, when you don`t have the horses to play up tempo, you can`t, well, he did last night, and to his credit, gave em all that light to go

TimmytheTank 05-17-2013 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougiesGoingDeep (Post 66157581)
FWIW, Jimmy Murph just said on Felger and Maz that Claude AND Chia wouldn't be here next year if they lost game 7 the other night and he even said theres still a good chance they will be gone next year if they lose this series

He thinks they are a package deal and there's a lot of division in the organization as far as how they value those two guys, especially Julien.

I think the FWIW in that statement is key. I don't see them touching Chiarelli, and I don't want them to. All my negative feelings about Claude aside, I really have doubts about the practicality of replacing him with anything equal, much less better. And I feel strongly that Chiarelli's personnel decisions in the past couple years have put him in rarified air among NHL GM's, I don't think there's anyone who does it better than him right now. The only downside I see to Chiarelli is that he lets/encourages some of Claude Julien's more... esoteric?... tendencies go unchecked. If that's the hill he's willing to die on, I don't see ownership fighting the battle, he's been too good.

TimmytheTank 05-17-2013 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODAAT (Post 66202815)
Claude gave the green light to Bart/Krug and DH last night, and deserves a ton of credit, probably making alot of the naysayers about him a touch quieter this morning.

While I get tired of the constant play it back to the other D system, I get it too, when you don`t have the horses to play up tempo, you can`t, well, he did last night, and to his credit, gave em all that light to go

Gave the green light? How so? What were his other options? I'm not trying to be snarky or RAGING ANTI CLODE, I just want to know why you feel that way. Personally I think he had one other option, which was Johnson, who hasn't played (at any level, outside of practice) in how long?

edit: To me, "giving them the green light" would have been sitting/resting Ference or Redden or McQuaid etc and saying "we're going to try this Offense thing people keep talking about"

LSCII 05-17-2013 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougiesGoingDeep (Post 66157581)
FWIW, Jimmy Murph just said on Felger and Maz that Claude AND Chia wouldn't be here next year if they lost game 7 the other night and he even said theres still a good chance they will be gone next year if they lose this series

He thinks they are a package deal and there's a lot of division in the organization as far as how they value those two guys, especially Julien.

So that means CJ and PC are and always were completely safe...:naughty:

ODAAT 05-17-2013 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmytheTank (Post 66202891)
Gave the green light? How so? What were his other options? I'm not trying to be snarky or RAGING ANTI CLODE, I just want to know why you feel that way. Personally I think he had one other option, which was Johnson, who hasn't played (at any level, outside of practice) in how long?

U kidding me, his other options would be to insist that those kids do exactly what Seids/Ference and Redden do, play pass between one another. Perhaps you should read before posting, I didn`t say he had the great foresight into playing all 3, I said he gave them the green light to play to their strengths, something that far too many believe he doesn`t do here

He "could" have told them all, hang back, play safe, play the D to D pass game etc...he didn`t, he did what good coaches do, allow players to play to their strength, and put them in situations to do so


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