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-   -   Swiss showed: NHL, KHL, SHMHL don't matter, you need a team (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1432117)

Siberian 05-18-2013 07:22 PM

Swiss showed: NHL, KHL, SHMHL don't matter, you need a team
 
All of these ridiculous arguments about the strength of this league or that should be put to rest. In the modern hockey team chemistry beats individual talent 9 times out of ten and most of top 16 teams from this competition can skate, score and defend.

Cruor 05-18-2013 07:25 PM

I think you just showed that anything can happen, once. Chemistry sure is important but unless you carry this over to Olympics, or another WC it will just be a fluke. And skill + chemistry will need to be combined somehow, and pure chemistry in a best-of-best won't cut it.

Siberian 05-18-2013 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor (Post 66259763)
I think you just showed that anything can happen, once. Chemistry sure is important but unless you carry this over to Olympics, or another WC it will just be a fluke. And skill + chemistry will need to be combined somehow, and pure chemistry in a best-of-best won't cut it.

Come on, Swiss won 9 out of 9 so far with a chance of 10 out of 10. These guys mostly out of their national league.

Cruor 05-18-2013 07:29 PM

And Sweden is in the Final with a god awful lineup (save the 3 late additions), and Finland was in the semifinals while Russia + Canada got knocked out in the quarters. I hope for your sake you don't really read anything big into this.

SwissAvsFan 05-18-2013 07:35 PM

It's not like the Swiss Team is just a bunch of talentless goons... and you can hardly call it a fluke if you have seen all the games. The tournament is quite short tough which gives for a small sample size.

SatanwasaSlovak 05-18-2013 07:42 PM

They seemed bigger, faster and with better stamina than USA the whole game. I wouldn't be suprised if the team has been visiting some doctor but as of know i'm happy for their success and hope for the best.

Vic Rattlehead* 05-18-2013 07:57 PM

Disagree.

The World Championships are a different beast compared to the Olympics...while this fact remains true for a second-tier championship like this one (yes, I know it carries more weight in Europe), the Olympics have proven that a combination of both chemistry and top-flight talent are important.

Siberian 05-18-2013 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kvelertak (Post 66260799)
Disagree.

The World Championships are a different beast compared to the Olympics...while this fact remains true for a second-tier championship like this one (yes, I know it carries more weight in Europe), the Olympics have proven that a combination of both chemistry and top-flight talent are important.

Don't kid yourself. It was 50-50 game in Vancouver and now that the Swiss know they can beat anybody at any level don't be surprised that Swiss team can beat Canada in Sochi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sael3lqJHHs

Cruor 05-18-2013 08:21 PM

This all begs the question why the Swiss, with all the chemistry didn't win anything at all up to now.

koh19 05-18-2013 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor (Post 66261747)
This all begs the question why the Swiss, with all the chemistry didn't win anything at all up to now.

Just time man. I mean we almost always lost at the QF level. Who knows what would have happened if we would have won one of those.

I think this is gonna act as a trigger. The Swiss now know that they can beat anyone. They just needed to wait for that little something more that would always cost them the big games. Now I think they have it.

Cruor 05-18-2013 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koh19 (Post 66261939)
Just time man. I mean we almost always lost at the QF level. Who knows what would have happened if we would have won one of those.

I think this is gonna act as a trigger. The Swiss now know that they can beat anyone. They just needed to wait for that little something more that would always cost them the big games. Now I think they have it.

But not just time, that's the whole point. You didn't suddenly get the midas touch. You are at the point where Slovakia was in 2000. You have realized (after decades of improving with Swedish and Canadian input) that a sound system with good players is enough to challenge for the medal. But to start beating the big drum like the thread starter here is just naive.

koh19 05-18-2013 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor (Post 66262131)
But not just time, that's the whole point. You didn't suddenly get the midas touch. You are at the point where Slovakia was in 2000. You have realized (after decades of improving with Swedish and Canadian input) that a sound system with good players is enough to challenge for the medal. But to start beating the big drum like the thread starter here is just naive.

Yeah no I haven't really thought about what the first poser said, don't know what to think about that.

The Zetterberg Era 05-18-2013 11:32 PM

They have guys from those leagues, good on the Swiss, but lets not get carried away here.

Chfan 05-18-2013 11:44 PM

In the end, top end talent and chemistry are just as important.

IMO, the Sedins will be too much to handle for the Swiss and I don't think it will be as close as we think. I actually hope for an upset, but I don't see it. Because of Sweden's ''top end talent''.

RorschachWJK 05-19-2013 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 66259663)
All of these ridiculous arguments about the strength of this league or that should be put to rest. In the modern hockey team chemistry beats individual talent 9 times out of ten and most of top 16 teams from this competition can skate, score and defend.

Finland has done something like this, well, almost continuously for the last 20 years :-)

Slight exaggeration, I know, but there is some truth to it too. Our teams are so often more than the sum of their parts.

BalticWarrior 05-19-2013 01:00 AM

Skill comes first and foremost,chemistry is important,but then again skilled players always have somekind of chemistry.

Hasa92 05-19-2013 01:13 AM

I disagree, yes chemistry is important but without good individuals you can't be a competetive team even if your team spirit is super high.

It's not like that it was a suprise for Switzerland, well it was a suprise that they won all the games but they have been beating "elite teams" every now and then for about 10 years now, i have been expecting them to win a medal for about 5 years now.

Tbh i only knew Nino Niederraiter & Gerber before the tournament. That's almost the same amount of NHL experience (they might have more current or has been NHL players in the team thou) as what Finland has in this tournament (Korpikoski, Granlund & Hagman)

And i don't think that France could pull their upset off again anytime soon, maybe after 20 years... maybe but i don't think France will ever be an elite hockey nation, teams like Norway, Denmark and even Slovenia who has been growing super fast as a hockey nation will most likely win a medal in upcoming decades, maybe even years.

Ryker 05-19-2013 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasa92 (Post 66273229)
And i don't think that France could pull their upset off again anytime soon, maybe after 20 years... maybe but i don't think France will ever be an elite hockey nation, teams like Norway, Denmark and even Slovenia who has been growing super fast as a hockey nation will most likely win a medal in upcoming decades, maybe even years.

Nope. I bet we will NEVER win a medal, much less in the upcoming years or decades. But I do agree France won't ever be an elite hockey nation :)

Hasa92 05-19-2013 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryker (Post 66273369)
Nope. I bet we will NEVER win a medal, much less in the upcoming years or decades. But I do agree France won't ever be an elite hockey nation :)

Well, look where Slovenia was 10 years ago? And where are they now? I think that with than kind of grow in hockey only the sky is a limit, and besides 100% of your NHL players have won the cup, i don't think that any other nation can say that. :laugh:

Ryker 05-19-2013 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasa92 (Post 66273537)
Well, look where Slovenia was 10 years ago? And where are they now? I think that with than kind of grow in hockey only the sky is a limit, and besides 100% of your NHL players have won the cup, i don't think that any other nation can say that. :laugh:

10 years ago? Same place as now. Eternally between the elite division and division I.

Hasa92 05-19-2013 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryker (Post 66273681)
10 years ago? Same place as now. Eternally between the elite division and division I.

Oh my mistake, well now you do have an NHL player and maybe more coming, that's still some grow.

Also i have heard that your registered players have increased over the years alot, it's still only less than 1000 but it's still impressive considering that you guys can get to world championships every second year and still have less registered players than countries like: Mongolia, New Zealand etc. Also the fact that you already have an NHL player and not just any player an elite NHL forward that could make the national team of any elite hockey nation easily, 10 years ago you didn't have that did you?

TMLife 05-19-2013 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 66261573)
Don't kid yourself. It was 50-50 game in Vancouver and now that the Swiss know they can beat anybody at any level don't be surprised that Swiss team can beat Canada in Sochi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sael3lqJHHs

Please, team Canada already has the names carved into the gold medals for Sochi haha!

RedWingsNow* 05-19-2013 01:50 AM

Way to go Reto Berra!
Another of my 2005 draft favorites!

Still banking on Reto Berra and Freddie Pettersson to show my scouting ability!

albator71 05-19-2013 02:24 AM

There's no denying that Switzerland is now part of the elite, their domestic league is one of the top league in Europe and they will only get better.

And watch out for their junior program also, I see them competing for a medal there within the next five years, they are developing very good two-way player there.

Yeah, its time we take Switzerland seriously, they deserve it.

roto 05-19-2013 02:30 AM

It's not wrong to say that NHL is the league with best players, because it is but:

Ice hockey on small ice (NA hockey) is different from the hockey played on large ice. NA hockey requires some attributes that are not needed that much on big ice: size, physical strength to wrestle on the boards and mentality to play in physical style. Elite NHL players are successful also on big ice, but big ice doesn't suit for all NHL players.

The are huge amount of forwards skilled enough for NHL top-6 in Europe. Why they are not then playing NHL? First, there are only limited amount (=180) of top-6 spots available and if you're as skilled as existing top-6 players it's hard to break in the team. Existing players have proved that they can play at NHL level and they have their contracts.

It's also takes time to get used to NA hockey and get a proper chance in NHL to prove that you're good enough. If you've got used to play top minutes in offensive roles and then you get to play in NHL 8 minutes per game defensively with some grinders, it's hard to show your skills.

What many skilled European skilled forwards lack is size and physicality. It means that it's already hard for them to get in top-6 if they're only as good as existing players, but they don't fit lower lines because they're too small and soft.

AHL could be useful "training camp", but many players prefer playing in European top leagues instead, which is very understandable: they want top minutes, they want to use their skill and not just dump in and wrestle in the boards and they want to earn something. A Swiss player must be really fond of NHL and NA style of hockey if he wants to change a spot in Swiss league team to a spot in AHL team.

My point is that there are a lot of players outside NHL who are as skilled as top-6 players in NHL. Lower line grinders in NHL are often primarily physical and not so skilled. It's not correct to say that they're best of the world just because they play with best players of the world. Leo Komarov got easily a spot in Leafs this season, but he just isn't better player than some Kontiola who still plays in KHL. Komarov is just a perfect grinder for NA style hockey.


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